[KMST] KMST 1.2.509 - Even more skill changes

[byakugan]

In a time before every boss had an auto-kill, Hero had an identical shield mastery to Paladins, an they were just as tough as paladins but did substantially more damage. Paladins were designed to take the elemental advantage over their foes, and all bosses had 50% elemental resistance, that is, on top of their PDR. Every boss still bosses possess some elemental resist (in the range of 25-50%) and stripping paladins of their ability to bypass this limits their usefulness-- as even mages still possess this ability. Paladins found that they only used threaten to lower the defense of the boss because their damage was so poor to begin with.

While heroes don't possess shield mastery anymore, they can still hit their defense cap without majorly impacting their performance, by scrolling top/bottom/helm/shield for defense, and getting their range up with potential. Meanwhile, with all the defense ignore with gear, threaten equivalently has had it's returns diminished to the point of it not being worth it to cast. A final note about threaten, I miss it's old animation, as I was my guild's "Woo girl".

On a note about paladin's utility, they are called upon to sacrifice 20% of their own substantial armor, and half their block chance, to offer damage reduction (and block chance) to the party. Where Heroes and Dark Knights are asked to pay nothing for their team buffs (except a temporary bit of hp/mp). The palaidin's buff is a maintained aura. For as long as I'm helping you out, I'm hurting myself.

Someone already mentioned it in this thread, that whatever were the standings of these jobs in past years shouldn't matter in the slightest when balancing them right now, because thats what they are trying to finally accomplish, balance. Those flaws you mention in the palladin class should be addressed aswell as those of the other 2 classes instead of pretending they are justified because other jobs have it easier or this job had it hard before.

My point was, before Nexon can attemp to balance these classes they have to either make clear whats the concept they have for each of them or just give each of them the same stuff to make them equally strong. I personally lean more towards the idea of giving the 3 warriors different identities by making Heroes hit hard but vulnerable, DrKs tank for their party and sustain to them aswell and Pallys utility that could strip bosses of their strengths, The main problem I seee though is the comunity. The moment they see Heroes hitting harder than DrK and Pallies they will say "screw you" to these other jobs despite their perks and bandwagon to Heroes, while others will cry they got shafted by making Heroes the strongest regardless of their weaknesses.

[ShinkuDragon]

Someone already mentioned it in this thread, that whatever were the standings of these jobs in past years shouldn't matter in the slightest when balancing them right now, because thats what they are trying to finally accomplish, balance. Those flaws you mention in the palladin class should be addressed aswell as those of the other 2 classes instead of pretending they are justified because other jobs have it easier or this job had it hard before.

My point was, before Nexon can attemp to balance these classes they have to either make clear whats the concept they have for each of them or just give each of them the same stuff to make them equally strong. I personally lean more towards the idea of giving the 3 warriors different identities by making Heroes hit hard but vulnerable, DrKs tank for their party and sustain to them aswell and Pallys utility that could strip bosses of their strengths, The main problem I seee though is the comunity. The moment they see Heroes hitting harder than DrK and Pallies they will say "screw you" to these other jobs despite their perks and bandwagon to Heroes, while others will cry they got shafted by making Heroes the strongest regardless of their weaknesses.

and i say that they don-t have to. they can simply release a patch where everything is balanced and call it a day. expect another "balance" patch somewhere down the line, and another, and another. so much balance, but never terminal balance

edit: to clarify, the reason why people (myself included i guess) about the time X or Y class has been OP, is because nexon has never balanced crap. they only make X class OP compared to it's peers and then switch it next "balance" to the point that these balance patches have become shifts of power rather than actual balance patches in the eyes of the people

[Avatarded]

Someone already mentioned it in this thread, that whatever were the standings of these jobs in past years shouldn't matter in the slightest when balancing them right now, because thats what they are trying to finally accomplish, balance.

My point was, before Nexon can attemp to balance these classes they have to either make clear whats the concept they have for each of them or just give each of them the same stuff to make them equally strong. I personally lean more towards the idea of giving the 3 warriors different identities by making Heroes hit hard but vulnerable, DrKs tank for their party and sustain to them aswell and Pallys utility that could strip bosses of their strengths,

Firstly, my main point was that if you don't want your class to be fragile, you can focus for that on gear, instead of dumping everything into damage. The core primciple of that latter is that no class does enough damage unfunded, so that's why people dump boat loads of gear into getting more damage. It's the same exact thing, you get what you want to focus on. Don't do enough damage? Scrolls for attack. Too Squishy Scrolls for defense (+1k def, +1k hp, +600 mdef from scrolls alone on 5 different slots). Its a matter of prioritization.

Secondly, A begets B, so what a class was in the past does matter for exactly the reason you're talking about. The identity of the class Whereas the DK was the most tactical of the three warrior classes (to play) because its damage cost HP and it was a delicate ballance to get stay low enough for Dragon Rage (200% damage) and high enough to use HP costing skills (their hardest hitting). Heroes were mindless hold down the same button, and Paladins were the tanky "we've got an App for that" iWarriors.

These are the identies of the classes as that's where they came from. What they go from there is a systemic result of their history.

[Even]

Firstly, my main point was that if you don't want your class to be fragile, you can focus for that on gear, instead of dumping everything into damage. The core primciple of that latter is that no class does enough damage unfunded, so that's why people dump boat loads of gear into getting more damage. It's the same exact thing, you get what you want to focus on. Don't do enough damage? Scrolls for attack. Too Squishy Scrolls for defense (+1k def, +1k hp, +600 mdef from scrolls alone on each cRA piece). Its a matter of prioritization.

I think you lack too much experience in the end game content. Defense, avoid, HP, MP, all these things that used to be a part of the game is totally useless in a boss like Vellum. Almost all skills can 1hko you, while some classes can bypass that (paladin and drk mainly) which is why nobody want these two classes to remain the strongest dps on top of the fact that they have the best survivability.

Heroes is meant to do the most damage due to having no defense abilities, I dont know why most drk/paladin players cant see this.

[ShinkuDragon]

I think you lack too much experience in the end game content. Defense, avoid, HP, MP, all these things that used to be a part of the game is totally useless in a boss like Vellum. Almost all skills can 1hko you, while some classes can bypass that (paladin and drk mainly) which is why nobody want these two classes to remain the strongest dps on top of the fact that they have the best survivability.

Heroes is meant to do the most damage due to having no defense abilities, I dont know why most drk/paladin players cant see this.

i can see it perfectly fine, the problem is that DrK's and heroes do nothing but damage. nothing else they bring to the table is useful. so how would you balance two classes that do nothing but damage?

DrK revive is once every 6 minutes* if you die once, you're certainly going to die again, so really all that revive is is a one time chance.

[Foolyz]

Heroes is meant to do the most damage due to having no defense abilities, I dont know why most drk/paladin players cant see this.

Literally what. This game is not based on the MMO Trifecta. Try again.

[Even]

i can see it perfectly fine, the problem is that DrK's and heroes do nothing but damage. nothing else they bring to the table is useful. so how would you balance two classes that do nothing but damage?

DrK revive is once every 6 minutes* if you die once, you're certainly going to die again, so really all that revive is is a one time chance.

You know theres too many of these classes to begin with the same concept, so you cant balance them in that regard. But once you start gaining utility edges people will look at it and whine because their class is exactly the same but you got x more thing than what they have. For instance, even tho you dont like that final pact have 6 min cooldown you can still extend its duration with buff duration. My Xenon have 80% buff duration and I plan to get more when you and I patch arrive in EMS, that already puts you at 54 sec duration final pact, just anotherl ine of 19% or 32% would put you at around a whole min of attacking without the fear of dying.

The ability has high potential but it also requires a pomegranate load of effort to pull that through aswell, so in the end Drk's utility is better than other classes due to final pact (and if you had the dot dmg outside of hard magnus like all other servers your healing ability would matter too).

If a class have too much utility would you rather nerf its utility or its damage?

Literally what. This game is not based on the MMO Trifecta. Try again.

Funny how you're a paladin, you just proved my point.

[Avatarded]

(paladin and drk mainly)

Just so I understand what I am reading, because it really sounds like what you're saying is that because 1, maybe 2 classes can survive a OHKO that Hero specifically is gimp? How is this any different for the legions of other classes that can't outlast an OHKO? What makes Hero so special in this instance?

Also, I can't help it if people who don't play paladins don't know how to work Post Hit Invulnerability. That's on you dood. Body surf for 1s to avoid getting OHKO, which coincidentally is why the PHI got nerfed, twice.

BTW, if you time it just right, anyone can survive an OHKO with a % HP pot, I've done it but I suspect it's a glitch.

[ShinkuDragon]

You know theres too many of these classes to begin with the same concept, so you cant balance them in that regard. But once you start gaining utility edges people will look at it and whine because their class is exactly the same but you got x more thing than what they have. For instance, even tho you dont like that final pact have 6 min cooldown you can still extend its duration with buff duration. My Xenon have 80% buff duration and I plan to get more when you and I patch arrive in EMS, that already puts you at 54 sec duration final pact, just anotherl ine of 19% or 32% would put you at around a whole min of attacking without the fear of dying.

The ability has high potential but it also requires a pomegranate load of effort to pull that through aswell, so in the end Drk's utility is better than other classes due to final pact (and if you had the dot dmg outside of hard magnus like all other servers your healing ability would matter too).

If a class have too much utility would you rather nerf its utility or its damage?



Funny how you're a paladin, you just proved my point.

hence why i only compare it to the main three warriors, the other warriors don't even feel warrior to me, but if you want to go that way, fine, why aren't you comparing yourself to whatever is the current flavor-of-the-month top pure DPS? they make heroes obsolete too.

and i'm sure most here will agree that 80% buff duration is beyond the reasonable spectrum expected. or impossible currently if you don't pay NX. i could argue back that heroes at least have some party-ish skills too to increase everyone's damage.

and what are you even talking about dot damage?

[Grey]

and what are you even talking about dot damage?

At Magnus, you constantly take damage outside of the blue aura, I think it's like, 1% HP per second or something like that.

[Bribery]

I don't see where the cooldown is listed, but if it is like Snipe (and has 5 second cooldown) it can still be spamable with the right potentials. As the potential system has a line that reduces cooldowns by 1 second, stacking up to 5 second cooldown reduction. Effectively taking snipe off the cooldown w/o the Hyper.

This update replaced the -100% Cooldown hyper with +20% Boss Damage, so it's no longer spammable. I like this change because it removes the single target skill overlap Corsairs previously had with Rapid Fire and Headshot.

Also, my understanding is that cooldown reduction potentials don't reduce the cooldown below 5 seconds. Even if they did, they're only available on hats so it's highly unlikely you'll get -5 seconds in total.

[ShinkuDragon]

At Magnus, you constantly take damage outside of the blue aura, I think it's like, 1% HP per second or something like that.

i can't say i've noticed anything like that when i go just as a mule, so it's really insignificant indeed. not to mention the potion cooldown in there is only 5 seconds i think

[Even]

hence why i only compare it to the main three warriors, the other warriors don't even feel warrior to me, but if you want to go that way, fine, why aren't you comparing yourself to whatever is the current flavor-of-the-month top pure DPS? they make heroes obsolete too.

and i'm sure most here will agree that 80% buff duration is beyond the reasonable spectrum expected. or impossible currently if you don't pay NX. i could argue back that heroes at least have some party-ish skills too to increase everyone's damage.

and what are you even talking about dot damage?

Hard magnus in EMS and most all servers is different to GMS. Our rushing skill does not super knockback but if you stand outside of the barrier you take damage over time, which is 10%. If you stand inside you take 1%, so basicly you have to use potions eventually. But because Drk have a passive healing whenever you attack, you will have an advantage here on survivability. KMS balance their game according to their gameplay, not GMS, so if this feature was taken out of GMS hard magnus due to giving classes like DRK an unfair advantage, then GMS devs overall nerfed you with that.

80% buff duration beyond the reasonable spectrum? Sure, but impossible to get without spending nx? No. 50% comes from inner ability, this can be done after You & I but it will take a lot of effort to pull through, you dont need legendary to get this, you can still get unique with 32% 19% or so. Another 20% comes from SS rank mechanic card, this one is probably not very appealing, but is it worth it? To me it was. And finally 10% empathy, this is not hard at all to obtain, especially if you play everyday.

hence why i only compare it to the main three warriors, the other warriors don't even feel warrior to me, but if you want to go that way, fine, why aren't you comparing yourself to whatever is the current flavor-of-the-month top pure DPS? they make heroes obsolete too.

Is it too hard for you to see that DRK is one of "the current flavor-of-the-month top pure DPS"? You should rather state less opinions than facts, you shouldnt care that hero drk and paladin are the main 3 warriors, because it doesnt matter, all other jobs matter just as much.

[Grey]

i can't say i've noticed anything like that when i go just as a mule, so it's really insignificant indeed. not to mention the potion cooldown in there is only 5 seconds i think

You don't notice it because we don't have it, they took it out of our version.

[ShinkuDragon]

Hard magnus in EMS and most all servers is different to GMS. Our rushing skill does not super knockback but if you stand outside of the barrier you take damage over time, which is 10%. If you stand inside you take 1%, so basicly you have to use potions eventually. But because Drk have a passive healing whenever you attack, you will have an advantage here on survivability. KMS balance their game according to their gameplay, not GMS, so if this feature was taken out of GMS hard magnus due to giving classes like DRK an unfair advantage, then GMS devs overall nerfed you with that.

80% buff duration beyond the reasonable spectrum? Sure, but impossible to get without spending nx? No. 50% comes from inner ability, this can be done after You & I but it will take a lot of effort to pull through, you dont need legendary to get this, you can still get unique with 32% 19% or so. Another 20% comes from SS rank mechanic card, this one is probably not very appealing, but is it worth it? To me it was. And finally 10% empathy, this is not hard at all to obtain, especially if you play everyday.



Is it too hard for you to see that DRK is one of "the current flavor-of-the-month top pure DPS"? You should rather state less opinions than facts, you shouldnt care that hero drk and paladin are the main 3 warriors, because it doesnt matter, all other jobs matter just as much.

i myself have mech (not 200) i agree this is doable, annoying but doable
empathy i maxed long ago, also doable.

but you're gonna have to explain how to get legendary without NX, because whatever system it is that GMS has it doesn't allow you to go post-unique with just honor stuff and you NEED NX. pls the amount you get from honor medals compared to the cost of just locking legendary (which is only one line) makes it nigh impossible. 32% inner is doable but even that is fairly difficult and time consumming

and no, in fact that's my point, after this heroes become the flavor of the month (warrior wise) and i dunno what becomes overall, so then are you ok when the inverse happens and XYZ classes get buffed while heroes get nerfed?

my whole issue with this business however is that i can't remember the last time heroes were outright nerfed, they always got better than what they were the last patch, DrK's and pallies however keep riding the rollercoaster.

[CakesXD]

but you're gonna have to explain how to get legendary without NX, because whatever system it is that GMS has it doesn't allow you to go post-unique with just honor stuff and you NEED NX. pls the amount you get from honor medals compared to the cost of just locking legendary (which is only one line) makes it nigh impossible. 32% inner is doable but even that is fairly difficult and time consumming

With the newest Honor system in place, you can rank up to Legendary with Honor Points (annoying, but still, doable without NX). It's just that regular Circulators will not work with a Legendary IA.

[Even]

i myself have mech (not 200) i agree this is doable, annoying but doable
empathy i maxed long ago, also doable.

but you're gonna have to explain how to get legendary without NX, because whatever system it is that GMS has it doesn't allow you to go post-unique with just honor stuff and you NEED NX. pls the amount you get from honor medals compared to the cost of just locking legendary (which is only one line) makes it nigh impossible. 32% inner is doable but even that is fairly difficult and time consumming

and no, in fact that's my point, after this heroes become the flavor of the month (warrior wise) and i dunno what becomes overall, so then are you ok when the inverse happens and XYZ classes get buffed while heroes get nerfed?

my whole issue with this business however is that i can't remember the last time heroes were outright nerfed, they always got better than what they were the last patch, DrK's and pallies however keep riding the rollercoaster.

Hero's gameplay concept seems fairly easy to balance while paladin & dark knights are either too strong or too weak. A concept that is hard to balance is not uncommon & just because this nerf arrives doesnt mean they will keep it this way, they will have to listen to feedback and then see what they can do (Xenon got some damage reverted on Mecha purge snipe for instance). Most people in insoya (out of what my koreans friends can tell me) are happy with these changes, but other classes will still get buffed somehow, eventually your class will be one of the last 15 weakest again and they will have to buff you, but you will keep your utility which isnt as bad as it was around jump patch. That is the main issue with maplestory, so please take what utility you have with your class and try to play with it, dont lose faith just because some other classes never get the same treatment as you in this situation.

You can also hate on DB's for only getting slightly buffed over and over ever since chaos patch, thats probably the only job thats been buffed/nerfed the right way for the longest time.

[ShinkuDragon]

Hero's gameplay concept seems fairly easy to balance while paladin & dark knights are either too strong or too weak. A concept that is hard to balance is not uncommon & just because this nerf arrives doesnt mean they will keep it this way, they will have to listen to feedback and then see what they can do (Xenon got some damage reverted on Mecha purge snipe for instance). Most people in insoya (out of what my koreans friends can tell me) are happy with these changes, but other classes will still get buffed somehow, eventually your class will be one of the last 15 weakest again and they will have to buff you, but you will keep your utility which isnt as bad as it was around jump patch. That is the main issue with maplestory, so please take what utility you have with your class and try to play with it, dont lose faith just because some other classes never get the same treatment as you in this situation.

You can also hate on DB's for only getting slightly buffed over and over ever since chaos patch, thats probably the only job thats been buffed/nerfed the right way for the longest time.

that's the problem, my class has lost all utility. iron will is the most useless party skill i can think of right now. hyper body is useless since A) bosses will hit you % damage so you'll still die in the same amount of hits, and B) reduces the efficiency of self-healing moves, since they work from base HP (meaning, hyper body makes you heal less of your total %hp)

and it may sound like much, but even with maxed duration, if you -NEED- the revive effect against a boss, you're not gonna last the whole boss fight. doesn't help that the cooldown reduce hyper on revive also doesn't work if you're suiciding on purpose.

and to add salt to the wound, the way nexon is leaving DrK's after this patch, makes them weaker than a current DrK with 0% buff duration.

so useless utility and useless damage, what's left? "woo i can get killed once! i can solo akyrum without dying!"
big whoop even heroes have better utility with incising

edit: and don't remind me of DB's since they apparently are allowed to have 100% final cut uptime

[Even]

that's the problem, my class has lost all utility. iron will is the most useless party skill i can think of right now. hyper body is useless since A) bosses will hit you % damage so you'll still die in the same amount of hits, and B) reduces the efficiency of self-healing moves, since they work from base HP (meaning, hyper body makes you heal less of your total %hp)

and it may sound like much, but even with maxed duration, if you -NEED- the revive effect against a boss, you're not gonna last the whole boss fight. doesn't help that the cooldown reduce hyper on revive also doesn't work if you're suiciding on purpose.

and to add salt to the wound, the way nexon is leaving DrK's after this patch, makes them weaker than a current DrK with 0% buff duration.

so useless utility and useless damage, what's left? "woo i can get killed once! i can solo akyrum without dying!"
big whoop even heroes have better utility with incising

edit: and don't remind me of DB's since they apparently are allowed to have 100% final cut uptime

No you didnt lose all of your utility. Final pact and the ability to heal constantly at bosses with decent attack speed is still there, if you can work on getting more buff duration you can bypass this nerf. I know you need like 120% buff duration (along with merc card at least) and its hard, but its doable without spending nx. 50% legendary line & 2 extra lines of either 20% or 30% and you're there. This will also boost your final pact, so its not like you're gonna lose anything for doing this apart from time.

I wasnt happy with opatz getting 15 sec nerf, which meant I either have to cast it 3 times within 90 sec or get buff duration so I only need to cast it 1-2 times. Dont forget that this also makes AB link last longer aswell, which is really helpful during the time you're in final pact.

[Mazz]

50% legendary line & 2 extra lines of either 20% or 30% and you're there. This will also boost your final pact, so its not like you're gonna lose anything for doing this apart from time.

Are you really suggesting it's worth trying for three lines of buff duration inner ability? That's ridiculous. Given how expensive it is to lock one line at legendary, you'd be farming medals for years for this to even be a vague possibility. Dark Knights suck now. They've been pomegranate since Big Bang, had about a year of glory with RED, and now they're pomegranate again.