Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)

[JoeTang]

What would be the better dps for a shad. What Joe said, or comboing boomerang and edge carnival then mass exploding. -Question from a guild mate.

My combo is Boomerang Step + Edge Carnival, but if you have Assassinate ready, you use Dark Sight + Assassinate instead of Edge Carnival. After 3 minutes is up, you spam Meso Explosion before your coins disappear, and at the same time, on single targets, you use Dark Sight + Assassinate when it's available. Assassinate only applies to single targets. Assuming the coins all stack neatly to be blown up, Edge Carnival is better than Muspelheim on multitargets unless Muspelheim still ignores defense like Assaulter.

[ElderTree]

A couple more questions:

1) Since Assassinate only charges a "point" on a kill, how are you factoring this into your model? I'd assume it's ignored for 1v1 (big boss scenario - not gonna die since you're piling up mesos for several minutes), but what about mobbing? Are they considered as 8+ unkillable bosses, or mobs that can die and are infinitely replenished without moving/rushing?

2) And depending on which way you're modelling the monsters for groups of 2+, are you taking into account that Meso Explosion hits 15 times on a boss, but only 10 times on a non-boss?

3) If your model has monsters that can die, and therefore charge Assassinate "points", does your model account for casting Shadow Instinct only after successfully charging one orb? (Won't charge more since you're using BS/EC/ME all over the place) I know you're not counting the +atk modifiers in a %/sec model, but it would affect the % that the next BS/EC/ME does.

Every 300 seconds, it uses Meso Explosion until all the coins are gone...

After 3 minutes is up, you spam Meso Explosion before your coins disappear...

Which is it? I assume you meant 180 sec, not 300 sec since that's what you were using in your pre-thief revamp models.

Assuming the coins all stack neatly to be blown up, Edge Carnival is better than Muspelheim on multitargets unless Muspelheim still ignores defense like Assaulter.

Muspelheim doesn't seem like it would be a good choice for the combo regardless of whether it ignores defense like Assaulter, due to its rushing ability. Unless the monsters are cornered, you'd just end up rushing them off of your pile of mesos. Then any attacks you do, including rushing them back onto the old mesos would start forming a new pile of mesos. This would mess up your meso explosions.

And if they are cornered, then you'd have to be tanking damage, or spend time getting off of them. Unless there's some trick you can do like getting in just the right spot to hit the monsters without tanking, but not leaving you with enough room to actually move forward during the rush? Seems complicated if it even works. But this is theoretical DPS and we don't care about taking damage!

[JoeTang]

A couple more questions:

1) Since Assassinate only charges a "point" on a kill, how are you factoring this into your model? I'd assume it's ignored for 1v1 (big boss scenario - not gonna die since you're piling up mesos for several minutes), but what about mobbing? Are they considered as 8+ unkillable bosses, or mobs that can die and are infinitely replenished without moving/rushing?

2) And depending on which way you're modelling the monsters for groups of 2+, are you taking into account that Meso Explosion hits 15 times on a boss, but only 10 times on a non-boss?

3) If your model has monsters that can die, and therefore charge Assassinate "points", does your model account for casting Shadow Instinct only after successfully charging one orb? (Won't charge more since you're using BS/EC/ME all over the place) I know you're not counting the +atk modifiers in a %/sec model, but it would affect the % that the next BS/EC/ME does.

My model assumes only bosses. It's impossible to assume killable monsters with %/s unless you either have an OHKO rate, or guaranteed OHKO.

Which is it? I assume you meant 180 sec, not 300 sec since that's what you were using in your pre-thief revamp models.

I am pineappleing retarded.

Edge Carnival

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	4608%/s	4279%/s	3788%/s	3295%/s	2310%/s
2 Target:	7540%/s	6996%/s	6175%/s	5359%/s	3718%/s
3 Target:	11245%/s	10426%/s	9193%/s	7959%/s	5499%/s
4 Target:	15161%/s	14047%/s	12381%/s	10710%/s	7365%/s
5 Target:	19275%/s	17848%/s	15718%/s	13577%/s	9289%/s
6 Target:	23590%/s	21842%/s	19192%/s	16573%/s	11300%/s
7 Target:	26407%/s	24425%/s	21455%/s	18481%/s	12537%/s
8 Target:	29223%/s	27017%/s	23722%/s	20413%/s	13778%/s
9 Target:	32072%/s	29626%/s	25981%/s	22324%/s	15013%/s
10 Target:	34848%/s	32205%/s	28220%/s	24242%/s	16256%/s

Minor decrease in DPS because of the lower efficiency. Might need to reinvestigate the lifespan of Pickpocket coins since item durations are different for some items in KMS, but I don't have a Chief Bandit.

Muspelheim doesn't seem like it would be a good choice for the combo regardless of whether it ignores defense like Assaulter, due to its rushing ability. Unless the monsters are cornered, you'd just end up rushing them off of your pile of mesos. Then any attacks you do, including rushing them back onto the old mesos would start forming a new pile of mesos. This would mess up your meso explosions.

And if they are cornered, then you'd have to be tanking damage, or spend time getting off of them. Unless there's some trick you can do like getting in just the right spot to hit the monsters without tanking, but not leaving you with enough room to actually move forward during the rush? Seems complicated if it even works. But this is theoretical DPS and we don't care about taking damage!

The idea is it's theoretical, just like Assaulter. I don't believe it's feasible to use Assaulter to DPS while maintaining good coin generation since they fly everywhere, but it's theoretical. In any case, none of the tables include Muspelheim in their damage.

[nRxUs]

I can't test the PP Mesos time in kMS but if you want I can test it in my gMS Shadower right now.
As a side note though, this means that even when mobbing, B-Step + Carnival Edge > B-Step + Steal.
I know Steal is super weak, but it hits 4 mobs.
I had a feeling Carnival Edge was in fact stronger than Steal even at 4 mobs but I was too lazy to do the Math.

[JoeTang]

I can't test the PP Mesos time in kMS but if you want I can test it in my gMS Shadower right now.
As a side note though, this means that even when mobbing, B-Step + Carnival Edge > B-Step + Steal.
I know Steal is super weak, but it hits 4 mobs.
I had a feeling Carnival Edge was in fact stronger than Steal even at 4 mobs but I was too lazy to do the Math.

Of course Edge Carnival > Steal, when Savage Blow > Band of Thieves, and Edge Carnival > Savage Blow, Band of Thieves > Steal.

[nRxUs]

Of course Edge Carnival > Steal, when Savage Blow > Band of Thieves, and Edge Carnival > Savage Blow, Band of Thieves > Steal.

Thaaaanks!!
I feel dumb now lol. Of course Carnival Edge would beat Steal. It is worth noting though, according to your Ascension Tables BoT>Savage Blow for 3+ mobs.
I simplified some things to do some basic math and I got that after ME+PP+Greed are maxed Savage Blow > Steal for all #of mobs. Really sad that our only mob Skill that can be paired with B-Step, not counting Foreign Spell ofc, is defeated by a 1vs1 Skill, even when they are both Second Job.
Anyway, there is a SC in gMS right now so I'll see the time for PP coins disappearing tomorrow at first light, -pinky swear- :)
Thanks again.

[nRxUs]

I just did a little test, and my PP coins all disappeared at 200 seconds.
Granted I only tested once because I am in a rush but a 20 seconds difference is too big for it to be a lag or variance issue IMO.
Not sure if this the same in kMS, but this what gMS does.

[lorx]

Preliminary Night Lord table. Uses Quadruple Throw on single targets. Casts Purge Area when available on targets with more than 25% defense. Uses Shade Split on multiple targets, and casts Sudden Raid when available.

Night Lord

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	3871%/s	3602%/s	3198%/s	2838%/s	2158%/s
2 Target:	3506%/s	3336%/s	3082%/s	2761%/s	2272%/s
3 Target:	5223%/s	4969%/s	4587%/s	4106%/s	3371%/s
4 Target:	6940%/s	6601%/s	6092%/s	5450%/s	4471%/s
5 Target:	8657%/s	8233%/s	7597%/s	6795%/s	5571%/s
6 Target:	10374%/s	9865%/s	9102%/s	8139%/s	6671%/s

I was assuming that with an extra star tacked on to TT, the %/s would go up far more than that. I'm assuming that I missed something really important, or am misinterpreting the table?

[JoeTang]

I was assuming that with an extra star tacked on to TT, the %/s would go up far more than that. I'm assuming that I missed something really important, or am misinterpreting the table?

Personally, I think a 1.75x increase in DPS is pretty big, especially when stars thrown only increased by 1.33x.

I just did a little test, and my PP coins all disappeared at 200 seconds.
Granted I only tested once because I am in a rush but a 20 seconds difference is too big for it to be a lag or variance issue IMO.
Not sure if this the same in kMS, but this what gMS does.

I'm going to keep the current GMS method the same, since the main aspect of it is not wasting Summoning Rocks/Shadow Partner Time using Meso Explosion. KMST's changes including Pickpocket coin duration (if it was changed) will need to be re-evaluated when they're released to the live server.

[lorx]

Personally, I think a 1.75x increase in DPS is pretty big, especially when stars thrown only increased by 1.33x.

Was totally looking at the wrong chart for some reason, I should not be looking at lots of numbers at 3am. The %/s are looking pretty sweet so far.

Based off LargestRoad's Legend DPS chart, that would place NL a bit over halfway up the list (Well, based on how things currently are)...I think.

[Takebacker]

Halfway up the list shouldn't be the spot to justify their lack of party support and tank ability. If anything they should be 3/4s up on the list if only because of their insane mobility. I know a lot of their power comes from sources that aren't reflected in %/s though, so they're probably a lot higher as far as the actual game is concerned.

[lorx]

Halfway up the list shouldn't be the spot to justify their lack of party support and tank ability. If anything they should be 3/4s up on the list if only because of their insane mobility. I know a lot of their power comes from sources that aren't reflected in %/s though, so they're probably a lot higher as far as the actual game is concerned.

Besides chance based stuff isn't the only ability that can't be put into %/s, Dark Flare?
(Expert Throwing/Venom/Critical Throw being the 'chance based' stuff that I can think of, I'm not sure if any of those skills could be put into %/s, I'm not knowledgeable in the math for that at all.)

I agree NL should be higher, but with where they sit right now I'm just glad they're moving up. Pulling this completely out of thin air on the fly, but this is about what I would think would be "fair". Probably horribly wrong and/or skewed, but itislatesowhatever.

1. The squishier Melee DPS first, with the ones with lesser utility coming out in front
2. Ranged DPS, again in order for utility (mages sink a bit because tanky people should deal less than squishy (Magic Guard))
3. Tanky Melee, again sorted for utility (This is every warrior ever +Battlemages, maybe Shad, dunno how well that Meso Guard thing works)
4. Bishops

edit: That's for for single target, AoE would be different at least by mage-type classes being higher on the tree than most. You know, in my uneducated opinion.

[JoeTang]

Night Lord:

Spoiler

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	3954%/s	3712%/s	3350%/s	2895%/s	2198%/s
2 Target:	3488%/s	3320%/s	3067%/s	2748%/s	2263%/s
3 Target:	5196%/s	4944%/s	4565%/s	4087%/s	3358%/s
4 Target:	6905%/s	6568%/s	6063%/s	5425%/s	4453%/s
5 Target:	8613%/s	8192%/s	7560%/s	6763%/s	5548%/s
6 Target:	10321%/s	9816%/s	9058%/s	8101%/s	6644%/s

Shadower:

KP Rate 10%

Muspelheim

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	3456%/s	3214%/s	2855%/s	2495%/s	1768%/s
2 Target:	6875%/s	6389%/s	5663%/s	4935%/s	3485%/s
3 Target:	11050%/s	10248%/s	9046%/s	7850%/s	5455%/s
4 Target:	15439%/s	14305%/s	12610%/s	10904%/s	7508%/s
5 Target:	19250%/s	17841%/s	15709%/s	13568%/s	9318%/s
6 Target:	23266%/s	21543%/s	18957%/s	16372%/s	11199%/s
7 Target:	25900%/s	23969%/s	21061%/s	18158%/s	12353%/s
8 Target:	28522%/s	26369%/s	23161%/s	19944%/s	13503%/s
9 Target:	31148%/s	28796%/s	25258%/s	21743%/s	14667%/s
10 Target:	33782%/s	31226%/s	27367%/s	23527%/s	15824%/s

Edge Carnival

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	4332%/s	4012%/s	3538%/s	3061%/s	2108%/s
2 Target:	7378%/s	6842%/s	6042%/s	5243%/s	3640%/s
3 Target:	10999%/s	10192%/s	8995%/s	7794%/s	5390%/s
4 Target:	14821%/s	13728%/s	12101%/s	10468%/s	7209%/s
5 Target:	18839%/s	17442%/s	15362%/s	13278%/s	9103%/s
6 Target:	23072%/s	21359%/s	18783%/s	16222%/s	11069%/s
7 Target:	25822%/s	23890%/s	20979%/s	18082%/s	12281%/s
8 Target:	28570%/s	26411%/s	23187%/s	19965%/s	13491%/s
9 Target:	31336%/s	28954%/s	25410%/s	21828%/s	14701%/s
10 Target:	34086%/s	31480%/s	27595%/s	23699%/s	15917%/s

KP Rate 100%

Muspelheim

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	5850%/s	5422%/s	4780%/s	4137%/s	2853%/s
2 Target:	6864%/s	6381%/s	5656%/s	4929%/s	3482%/s
3 Target:	11028%/s	10232%/s	9044%/s	7841%/s	5453%/s
4 Target:	15420%/s	14286%/s	12596%/s	10899%/s	7500%/s
5 Target:	19224%/s	17813%/s	15686%/s	13552%/s	9313%/s
6 Target:	23245%/s	21507%/s	18939%/s	16349%/s	11182%/s
7 Target:	25870%/s	23933%/s	21036%/s	18133%/s	12336%/s
8 Target:	28492%/s	26344%/s	23139%/s	19922%/s	13494%/s
9 Target:	31125%/s	28769%/s	25232%/s	21709%/s	14649%/s
10 Target:	33749%/s	31197%/s	27342%/s	23492%/s	15805%/s

Edge Carnival

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	6444%/s	5967%/s	5254%/s	4539%/s	3111%/s
2 Target:	7371%/s	6839%/s	6036%/s	5242%/s	3642%/s
3 Target:	10988%/s	10181%/s	8985%/s	7786%/s	5385%/s
4 Target:	14802%/s	13722%/s	12092%/s	10459%/s	7203%/s
5 Target:	18819%/s	17437%/s	15341%/s	13265%/s	9094%/s
6 Target:	23052%/s	21330%/s	18776%/s	16207%/s	11062%/s
7 Target:	25801%/s	23869%/s	20962%/s	18064%/s	12274%/s
8 Target:	28556%/s	26396%/s	23172%/s	19945%/s	13486%/s
9 Target:	31308%/s	28923%/s	25356%/s	21814%/s	14695%/s
10 Target:	34044%/s	31462%/s	27547%/s	23685%/s	15897%/s

Assuming any attack except Assassinate collects Killing Points. Saves 5 KP for Shadow Instinct. Otherwise, uses it all on Assassinate. No idea what the collection rate on KP is. Assassinate will likely already hit the damage cap though without this boost.

[nRxUs]

Night Lord:

Shadower:

KP Rate 100%

Muspelheim

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	5850%/s	5422%/s	4780%/s	4137%/s	2853%/s
2 Target:	6864%/s	6381%/s	5656%/s	4929%/s	3482%/s
3 Target:	11028%/s	10232%/s	9044%/s	7841%/s	5453%/s
4 Target:	15420%/s	14286%/s	12596%/s	10899%/s	7500%/s
5 Target:	19224%/s	17813%/s	15686%/s	13552%/s	9313%/s
6 Target:	23245%/s	21507%/s	18939%/s	16349%/s	11182%/s
7 Target:	25870%/s	23933%/s	21036%/s	18133%/s	12336%/s
8 Target:	28492%/s	26344%/s	23139%/s	19922%/s	13494%/s
9 Target:	31125%/s	28769%/s	25232%/s	21709%/s	14649%/s
10 Target:	33749%/s	31197%/s	27342%/s	23492%/s	15805%/s

Edge Carnival

Defense:	0%	10%	25%	40%	70%
1 Target:	6444%/s	5967%/s	5254%/s	4539%/s	3111%/s
2 Target:	7371%/s	6839%/s	6036%/s	5242%/s	3642%/s
3 Target:	10988%/s	10181%/s	8985%/s	7786%/s	5385%/s
4 Target:	14802%/s	13722%/s	12092%/s	10459%/s	7203%/s
5 Target:	18819%/s	17437%/s	15341%/s	13265%/s	9094%/s
6 Target:	23052%/s	21330%/s	18776%/s	16207%/s	11062%/s
7 Target:	25801%/s	23869%/s	20962%/s	18064%/s	12274%/s
8 Target:	28556%/s	26396%/s	23172%/s	19945%/s	13486%/s
9 Target:	31308%/s	28923%/s	25356%/s	21814%/s	14695%/s
10 Target:	34044%/s	31462%/s	27547%/s	23685%/s	15897%/s

Assuming any attack except Assassinate collects Killing Points. Saves 5 KP for Shadow Instinct. Otherwise, uses it all on Assassinate. No idea what the collection rate on KP is. Assassinate will likely already hit the damage cap though without this boost.

Since KP's are only obtained after a Mob dies how are you calculating the timing between each KP gain.

[Takebacker]

Since KP's are only obtained after a Mob dies

Says who?

[Raul]

Says who?

It's somewhat implied in kill points, but that's not confirmed.

[Blades4hire]

holy poop.
Shadower's actually have mid-top tier dps now.
Assuming that KP work the way Joe said of course.

[Abysseon]

Says who?

http://orangemushroom.wordpress.com/...skill-changes/

Shadower Instinct: When you kill a monster while this skill is active, you’ll gain 1 Killing Point, for every Killing Point you have when using this skill, you will gain 6 more attack, skill duration has been decreased from 180 seconds to 60 seconds, delay has been decreased.

[JoeTang]

http://orangemushroom.wordpress.com/...skill-changes/

The skill description states per attack. It does not mention anything about killing a monster. Apparently, the newest videos of Shadowers also show this.

[Abysseon]

The skill description states per attack. It does not mention anything about killing a monster. Apparently, the newest videos of Shadowers also show this.

*looks up shad vids*

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMzMwMzI0Njg4.html

My mistake then, guess it was just a translation error from the blogger and kps can be activated per attack.

The "killing" part of the name is misleading though. =/