DotA2 - Original Thread

[Malthe]

Yea, but the team has both dedication and individual skill, i could easily see them become the powerhouse of the west together with Na'vi and LGD.int.
Although Na'vi needs to get into as serious training as the rest if they want to keep up, they can't keep relying on what they have already.

Also, an offer to anybody: I'm willing to write a guide for any hero, any concept or anything you guys want, just ask about a hero and i'll make a write-up of the things you need to know and so on. I really enjoy sharing know-how.

[Words]

Being able to watch other games is the best feature ever for noobs like myself!
Just watching 1 game made me understand how item buying works and what I should be doing.
However, one question came up: if I'm playing Nature's Prophet, is there an easy way to keep my treants selected? When I tried it I was having trouble controlling both myself and treants.

[Malthe]

Just like in RTS games, you can create control groups, albeit not very useful for units with a timer, if you make it a habit it's quite easy to select your hero at the start of the game and use control+1 and now everytime you click 1 you select your hero. You can do this with your treants too, but when they die you lose the control group, sadly.(IIRC)
Due to the game having roots in RTS, many controls from Warcraft 3 exist in DotA2.

And yea, valve has made a quite amazing game-viewing system. I don't think there is quite any other replay/live game watching system quite like it.

Also:

Spoiler

[Polantaris]

I got a Beta key a while back, but I've been lazy until now trying it out.

I've grown a liking to Windrunner. I'm not that good though.

My only major issue with the game so far is that the camera view is awful. It's not zoomed out enough. I have a lot of issues with vertical combat/running/whatever. I've died quite a few times because I'm trying to keep track of both where the people chasing me are/what they are doing, and where I'm actually going. This isn't so bad in horizontal situations, but if I'm moving vertically it sucks, I can't see anything.

With Fog of War I don't really get the need to have the camera zoomed in so much.

[Malthe]

Well, the answer is that the game has been built around the camera having this zoom.
Giving you a bigger field of vision would break a lot of things and abilities, some would be stronger and some would be weaker. There are items such as smoke of deceit that make it so you don't appear on the minimap for example, even if the enemy has vision of you. With a bigger field of vision you'd see them regardless of not trying to spot them. Ruining the surprise factor that it is meant to give. Not to mention abilities like miranas arrow, pudge's hook and and ability like them.
It's something you get used to, honestly. Not that i don't understand why it bothers you.

Also, would anybody be up for some games later tonight? Played a game with @Dusk 2 days ago or so, and if we get a few more to join i'm sure it'd be loadsa fun. Any skill level may join, obviously.

[Polantaris]

Well, the answer is that the game has been built around the camera having this zoom.
Giving you a bigger field of vision would break a lot of things and abilities, some would be stronger and some would be weaker. There are items such as smoke of deceit that make it so you don't appear on the minimap for example, even if the enemy has vision of you. With a bigger field of vision you'd see them regardless of not trying to spot them. Ruining the surprise factor that it is meant to give. Not to mention abilities like miranas arrow, pudge's hook and and ability like them.
It's something you get used to, honestly. Not that i don't understand why it bothers you.

Also, would anybody be up for some games later tonight? Played a game with @Dusk 2 days ago or so, and if we get a few more to join i'm sure it'd be loadsa fun. Any skill level may join, obviously.

Yeah, I suppose some adjusting will be required. If I play enough I'll probably get used to it. I really don't think it would bother me as much if there wasn't such a vast difference between vertical and horizontal. Horizontally, you have practically twice the view range compared to vertically.

Two questions:
1) What type of game? SPers vs SPers, SPers vs Bots, or SPers vs Random other people?
2) What time, EST? I have to go into work at 11PM, so 10PM and sooner and I'm in.

FYI, I said I'm not that good earlier, but I lied. I suck.

[Malthe]

If we have enough for it, i'd love to create private lobbies with SPers vs SPers, we can also play SPers vs bots and we can also play SPers vs random people, whatever people feel like is cool with me.
And, i have time pretty much all day long, up untill something like 11 pm CET, i'm bad at time-zones so i have no idea of when that is EST.

And believe me, i really do not care about what skill level people are, i play for fun regardless and i'd rather play with people i know and have fun than play to win and tryhard with randoms.
And as i've said multiple times before, DotA is just a game of experience and habits. The gameplay itself isn't hard or challenging, but getting used to everything, learning what everything and everyone does and how to react in X, Y and Z situation is something that comes with just playing.

And latest valve news post:

Spoiler

The Defense 3

The Defense 3 tournament has started and a ticket is now available on the Dota 2 Store. What separates this item from previous ones is the inclusion of an exclusive in-game Courier with every purchase. We are excited to see Tournaments looking for ways to add extra value to their events. In this case, JoinDota teamed up with Vlad the Implyer (a prolific Workshop contributor) to bring you Ramnaught of Underwool.



A few months ago, when we introduced in-game tournament tickets and team pennants, one of our goals was to create new sources of revenue for leagues and tournaments. While sponsors and ad revenue are useful sources for tournaments, they’re indirect – the funding doesn’t come from the tournament viewers themselves. We believe that long-term, for tournaments to be stable and grow year over year they need to be self-sustainable from direct revenue, and not at the mercy of changing attitudes in sponsoring companies. Figuring out ways for tournaments to do that will take some time and experimentation, so it’s great to see the community getting involved in that experimentation, and even more exciting to see the competitive community working with the Workshop community in the process. Initial signs are good – The Defense 3 has earned several times more in its first week than The Defense 1 did in its lifetime.

Yesterday’s update also contains Na`Vi’s official courier, the Weaslecrow, a collaboration between Na`Vi and a group of Workshop contributors. It’s the first time we’ve tried a branded item associated directly with professional players, and we’re excited to see how that will turn out. If you’re a Na`Vi fan like us, you can pick one up over here.

What does this mean for you?

• If you’re a tournament organisation, we’d encourage you to think further about ways you could provide value to your viewers. If there are ways that seem interesting to you, and require some work from us, then drop us a line with your proposal. If you think you could create value by collaborating in some way with a Workshop contributor, then peruse the Workshop and ping someone whose work you like.

• If you’re a professional player, think about how you could experiment with similar revenue sources. If you’re known for playing a specific Hero, why not collaborate with a Workshop contributor to build branded items for that Hero?

• If you’re a Workshop contributor, look for opportunities to work with other people or organisations in the community that provide value to the community as a whole.

• If you’re a player, relax and keep on playing. We hope these efforts will result in a vibrant and stable competitive scene, where professional players and tournaments can focus on providing you with the most entertaining Dota possible. If you’re a fan of a team, or a specific player, and want to show them that you enjoy their efforts, drop them a line and let them know you’d appreciate it if they created a way for you to help them continue to grow.

We’re always happy to listen to community members who have interesting ideas for how to build a better business for the competitive community, so jump aboard and help us figure this out.

Oh and if we're missing just a few people for SP vs SP or something like it, i could have a friend or two of mine join us.

[Polantaris]

If we have enough for it, i'd love to create private lobbies with SPers vs SPers, we can also play SPers vs bots and we can also play SPers vs random people, whatever people feel like is cool with me.
And, i have time pretty much all day long, up untill something like 11 pm CET, i'm bad at time-zones so i have no idea of when that is EST.

You would be 6 hours ahead of me, so I think that's too soon. I still need to get some sleep. I usually wake up around 6PM (Midnight for you), eat something, and then can play around 7-8PM my time (1-2AM yours). If you're up then, then I'll be open for playing. If not, maybe during the start of the weekend would be better.

Feel free to add me on Steam, if you want. My Steam name is ポランタリスPolantaris.

[Dusk]

I got a Beta key a while back, but I've been lazy until now trying it out.

I've grown a liking to Windrunner. I'm not that good though.

My only major issue with the game so far is that the camera view is awful. It's not zoomed out enough. I have a lot of issues with vertical combat/running/whatever. I've died quite a few times because I'm trying to keep track of both where the people chasing me are/what they are doing, and where I'm actually going. This isn't so bad in horizontal situations, but if I'm moving vertically it sucks, I can't see anything.

With Fog of War I don't really get the need to have the camera zoomed in so much.

Well, the view distance is the same as Starcraft/Warcraft, and imo it's pretty comfortable once you get used to it. Try making greater use of the minimap; you can keep track of where others are without having to scroll over to look at them. Also, I don't do much scrolling except in the direction I'm moving or aiming an ability. I just click on the minimap to jump to a specific location. You can also double tap your hero selection button (F1 by default) to jump back to your hero. This is pretty useful when you want to glance at what's happening somewhere else real quick, then jump back to controlling your hero.

[Polantaris]

Well, the view distance is the same as Starcraft/Warcraft, and imo it's pretty comfortable once you get used to it. Try making greater use of the minimap; you can keep track of where others are without having to scroll over to look at them. Also, I don't do much scrolling except in the direction I'm moving or aiming an ability. I just click on the minimap to jump to a specific location. You can also double tap your hero selection button (F1 by default) to jump back to your hero. This is pretty useful when you want to glance at what's happening somewhere else real quick, then jump back to controlling your hero.

I'm pretty sure the camera is way better, especially in SC2. Even if it isn't, you don't have nearly as many worries in Starcraft/Warcraft that you do in DOTA2, in terms of camera operation. If you were to lose a scout, oh well, build another one. Hell, 99% of the time scouts in SC/WC are builders, especially early game. If you die in DOTA2, you can potentially be doing nothing for several minutes. Plus, you don't need to be constantly watching the enemy in SC/WC if you're running(that's if you even care to run), but in DOTA2 there's skill shots and all kinds of other stuff to watch out for, stuff you cannot see at all and also guide your hero. Death has a far larger penalty in DOTA2, and many times in SC/WC, you send units out on suicide runs, something you're not going to be doing in DOTA2(very often, if at all).

Just as a comparison to the camera: The main structure that you must destroy to win, it takes up about 80% of my screen, definitely almost all, if not all of it vertically. In SC, your Command Center/Nexus/Hive takes up about 20-25%, maybe 30%.

[Malthe]

80%? Which resolution are you playing with?

This is what it's like to me.

Spoiler

There are some of the resolutions that are quite stupid, honestly.

[Words]

I'll add you too, Polantris! I'm just starting and learning but it's always better to play with friends :D
Oh, and also: I hate people who leave co op vs bot games... it makes it easier to win for me and I don't learn anything from an easy match.
I'm loving Enigma and Nature's Prophet! Having minions makes it so much easier to get last hits.

[Polantaris]

80%? Which resolution are you playing with?

This is what it's like to me.

Spoiler

There are some of the resolutions that are quite stupid, honestly.

I'm playing at 1920x1200. Maybe the 16:10 ratio is screwing everything up, or maybe some setting needs to be changed. Not sure, I'll look into it. That looks way better than what I get.

I'll add you too, Polantris! I'm just starting and learning but it's always better to play with friends :D
Oh, and also: I hate people who leave co op vs bot games... it makes it easier to win for me and I don't learn anything from an easy match.

I agree completely. I also am not a fan of people playing Easy bots who are far better than Easy bots. It really throws off my ability to get better when they're just slaughtering everything.

Or, I had an Axe last night that went between the two towers on bottom, where I happened to be, and stole all the creep kills because the AI doesn't react to them doing that. Because you'd certainly get away with that in a regular game.

[Dusk]

Yeah, playing vs co-op bots will only get you familiar with the controls and general mechanics of the game. You're honestly not going to get any better by playing bots once you understand that. Just jump in and play humans if you want to learn. There are plenty of other noobies that you'll get paired against. Watching high level gameplay (preferably with commentary) is helpful, too.

@Polantaris: The UI is designed for a 16:9 screen, so it's going to look slightly off at 16:10.

[Words]

I like playing vs co-op bots because it allows to try heroes and learn basic stuff about them that I don't get from just watching. I need doing and watching to learn.
But the idea of watching high level gameplay with commentary does sound great. Any recommendations or should I just search youtube?

[Malthe]

I'm playing at 1920x1200. Maybe the 16:10 ratio is screwing everything up, or maybe some setting needs to be changed. Not sure, I'll look into it. That looks way better than what I get.



I agree completely. I also am not a fan of people playing Easy bots who are far better than Easy bots. It really throws off my ability to get better when they're just slaughtering everything.

Or, I had an Axe last night that went between the two towers on bottom, where I happened to be, and stole all the creep kills because the AI doesn't react to them doing that. Because you'd certainly get away with that in a regular game.

Yeah the AI doesn't handle such unconventional things very well, it's a rare thing to do but it's something axe's sometimes try to do and is called creep-skipping, doesn't work very well in normal games unless you outnumber your enemies in the lane because axe becomes an easy target to kill.

I like playing vs co-op bots because it allows to try heroes and learn basic stuff about them that I don't get from just watching. I need doing and watching to learn.
But the idea of watching high level gameplay with commentary does sound great. Any recommendations or should I just search youtube?

There are plenty of sources for high level commentary, give me a second and i will get you some extremely good VODs of extremely entertaining games.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wr15U...layer_embedded - This one is a tad long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=yWGVPWeyPhQ - Interesting game between two top-teams, not quite as long.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La--e...layer_embedded - Another incredibly entertaining game, also not quite as long.

And you practically can't go wrong with nearly any of the games in this playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLFD6B60BCD84ACE84



And just for fun:

[Words]

Except for the parts where the guy screams like he's narrating a soccer match, the first video is really fun and educative, for most parts I had to pause, look what some items do, and then keep watching.
I just started watching the second one, and the beginning is so distracting: the only girl I might've spot was asleep haha. However, it seems like a really stressful situation: not only do they have a lot of people in front of them watching them and being noisy but they also have cameras all around them. Unless they can't see/hear what's going on outside.

About playing vs humans instead of bots I'd like to play with friends/SPers... that way no one gets mad at me :3

[Malthe]

DotA is often commentated by two people, one with deep inside knowledge and one who can do play by play.
The guy screaming is the play by play guy, tobi wan kenobi who tends to be... very enthusiastic and hyped. The other guy is a professional player himself, named synderen, which is why that video was probably educating, since he can provide actual insight, those two combined are what people tend to see as one of the better duos since it has the hype from tobi and the good insight from synderen.

And i forgot to mention, some tournaments can be found for free within the client, the latest one was the Dreamhack Dota 2 corsair vengeance cup.
All the replays for that can be found ingame by going into the watch tab, then into tournaments and then looking for it in the list. It'll have the full games, you'll have control of what you want to see and when you want to see it and from what perspective and you can even see player perspective(see how the 'best' control and move their hero and camera). It also includes commentary, the last two games had really bad mic quality for the ingame commentary though, sadly. But i imagine being able to watch it in the ingame client might help you, since you can pause and see what a hero does, what the item does and so on :)

And as said, if we get som SPers together i'd be more than glad to play with you guys over on the US servers.

And new hex0r video for those interested:

Spoiler

[Polantaris]

DotA is often commentated by two people, one with deep inside knowledge and one who can do play by play.
The guy screaming is the play by play guy, tobi wan kenobi who tends to be... very enthusiastic and hyped. The other guy is a professional player himself, named synderen, which is why that video was probably educating, since he can provide actual insight, those two combined are what people tend to see as one of the better duos since it has the hype from tobi and the good insight from synderen.

I hope it's not like some regular sports where the Play-by-Play guy has no idea what the f**k he's talking about and says crap that makes no sense at all.

I suppose that's more of an older situation though, cause nowadays they tend to get people who have at least a slight clue.

[Malthe]

Tobi knows his dota, he has no deep insight though, but he's been with the game for years and knows the basics and some of broader ideas, he's not clueless.
But he's not a genius either and he's quite bad at actually playing it, he doesn't know all the small mechanics and such but has a good idea of how teams are doing comparatively.

The best casting duo IMO, is a guy named Draskyll who can do play by play while having a deep understanding of the game, he plays high tier dota, without being professional and him plus a slightly charismatic professional player gives good insight into the game and a lot of usefull information.
Like here: http://www.twitch.tv/dreamhackdota/b/342299024
Skip to 4 hours and 50 minutes exactly and you'll have one of the, IMO, better casts in quite some time.