Impressive skill, is it only me or did anyone else notice how often she was getting missed o_o. Nice to see even more structuring of the original classes, wonder who they will end up changing next?
[KMST] [1.2.375] Monster Park
Impressive skill, is it only me or did anyone else notice how often she was getting missed o_o. Nice to see even more structuring of the original classes, wonder who they will end up changing next?
that amount of misses is not normal.
my blader gets hit more often, at even lower mobs.
something's fishy, though the skill demonstration is real.
The problem is, the entire game is designed around the pot spamming system. Most classes do not have HP recovery skills - I count only 7 out of 18 classes that can reach level 200, and only one of them is capable of healing other classes. Nexon decided a long time ago that bosses like Zakum weren't challenging enough when everything they could throw at you could be dealt with by not lagging and carrying enough pots, but instead of fixing the system for the better they started designing HORRIBLE things like Damage Reflect, mass Seduce, and Dispel spam, none of which are fun or challenging to deal with, but just a huge pain that requires impossibly fast reaction times or a lot of NX. The game has gotten further and further away from being fixable and Big Bang wasn't nearly enough to change that.Originally Posted by Viaje
They'd have to redo the entire HP system so that levels matter more. HP gain should be exponential instead of linear. Warriors shouldn't have 7-8x times more HP than Mages, and 3x more HP than Archers. HP Washing shouldn't be possible (or necessary). MP needs to be a limited resource for all classes - otherwise that just leads to unlimited heals, which means heal spamming, which is boring. They need to give ALL classes a limited means of recovery, enough to train and fight easy bosses, or solo play will be a nightmare. Passive regen, like you said, would be nice. Then they'd need to redesign most endgame bosses to be less "cheap." No insta-kill damage reflect, thanks. Then they'd need to entirely redesign the Bishop class and throw some healing skills out to a couple of other classes. Only then could they actually make pot cooldowns work and healing be useful.
Healing doesn't have to be boring AoE heal spam, either. I play a Restoration Shaman in WoW, which is a healing spec of a hybrid class, and it's actually a ton of fun. I have an AoE placer that heals everyone by a small amount per tick, a one-target buff that heals the target by a decent amount every couple of seconds when they get hit, a small but cheap heal, an expensive burst heal, and a chain heal (works like Chain Lightning). I also have some other buffs and passives that affect my healing ability. Having limited mana means I actually have to choose my skills carefully. My gear improves the amount I heal, the speed at which I heal, and my mana recovery. I'm not asking to see all that in MS, but that's the kind of depth I want to see in a game. I enjoy playing support classes and I want healing to matter, but there's just way too much they need to change. Might as well make MapleStory 2.
Chaos changed all acc/avoid/def formulas.
This new party exp formula? 6:4 ratio was it?
Does this mean people will care about your damage at LHC more or less than they do now with this current formula?
oh, that's wierd. my blader is a level 150 in KMS with an unreasonably high amount of avoid, yet a Dark Knight manages to get straight misses when I dont.
Recount.
Currently in GMS:
Battlemage - Blood Drain
Mechanic - Healing Robot H-LX
Aran - Combo Drain
Bishop - Heal
Bucc - Energy Drain
NL - Drain
Shadower - Chakra
Paladin - HP Recovery
Dark Knight - Dragon Wisdom/Aura of the Beholder
That's 9.
Post-Chaos:
Dual Blade - Vital Steal
Making 10.
Post-Class Balancing (so far):
Hero - Self Recovery
Dark Knight - Beholder's Revenge.
Making 11 while giving one class their third recovery skill.
The fact that they insist on adding recovery skills shows that they have at least a little drive to eliminate pot reliance. Granted, there are still issues such as the fact that, even among the classes that get HP recovery, there are issues of when they get it.
I'll agree that their methods thus far have been misguided, but that doesn't mean the game is getting further away from being fixable. Nexon is just kind of stupid. We know that.
While you point to things like Damage Reflect and Seduce as awful game mechanics, I'd say that the absolute worst skill they ever gave a boss was the first: the ability to 1/1.
This was the step Maplestory ever made towards "fake hard". Instead of coming up with a pot cool down system that would force players to think about when and where to recover HP/MP, they stuck in a skill that would ensure anyone would die if they didn't pot immediately.
Yet even this travesty can be mended; just take it out.
They could do the same with any other "fake hard" aspect of bossing without a major overhaul.
Is HP washing isn't necessary since Big Bang hit? While HP and MP (and defense) probably could still be adjusted, I don't believe they need to be. Mages don't need as much HP because they have Magic Guard which means that only 20% of the damage they take affects their HP anyway. Keep in mind that pot delay would affect MP pots as well.
It'd take a lot of testing and adjusting, but I'm confident that pot-reliance could be eliminated purely by allowing every class to either recover some HP or just avoid taking damage. For example, while the archer class doesn't have any recovery skills, they do get a skill that allows them to dodge at a 20% rate.
Of course, like you said, bosses would still have to lose their "fake hard" attributes, but that's something for which I've been hoping for a long time. The only reason they have them in the first place is, as you said, because of the horrible pot system. "Fake hard" is the effect, not the cause.
First of all, despite rumors, I don't see a "Maplestory 2" ever happening. Maplestory is a game that relies on players continuing the characters they already have, and Nexon would be alienating their consumers by making everyone start over.
Most of what you suggested is actually possible in the current MS anyway. The only one that wouldn't work would be one-target buffs (since there's no current interface to choose a specific party member to cast on).
An AoE placer already exists (Healing Robot H-LX).
Not sure what a "burst heal" is, but it sounds like an AoE.
Chain Lightning and Sparks already demonstrate chain-targeting, which could be adjusted to player characters.
MP Recovery gear already exists via Potential.
Int could easily be made to determine how much a skill heals.
A final note that I want to add is that I believe that the penalty for dying in Maplestory is too harsh.
Having to get back to where you were is punishment enough. If you're training, you can lose your map.
If you're bossing, you don't finish the run and lose out on exp/items.
Simply by getting rid of the exp loss would open up doors in this game. Players could actually explore and experiment with training instead of being punished for walking outside the lines.
I vote for 1/1 attacks being removed. Its good and all that a boss give the absolute damage and what not, but when seduce, zombify and pot lock was introduced in the formula 1/1 Attacks became simply retarded. Being seduced and hitted with a 1/1 its as good as you dying because:
1) You are leaved with 1mp, meaning NO means to recover HP with skills.
2) If you are seduced with 1mp that means no Heros Will>Pot=Death.
3) 1/1 then zombify with a pot lock you would depend on a bishop to heal but noooo you instead get killed by zombify.
Bottom line, 1/1 attacks are retarded and should be absolutly removed of the game OR nerfed down to a 50%/50% attack or something.
Ah, missed Chakra. I have a DK and I don't think Dragon Wisdom does pomegranate. Might as well add Infinity to that list; I use that to heal in town but it's still extremely marginal. Still, that's half the classes that are missing a recovery ability. Self Recovery is a mere 80 HP, that is not going to make a difference at all. If our HP/MP bars are meant to be meaningful and potions a limited source of emergency healing rather than an endless supply of HP/MP, and the game is still meant to be soloable, then every class needs recovery abilities. Also, other classes need party recovery. There's too many classes in the game for every party to require a Bishop. Mechanics don't really count.
The problem with Magic Guard is that it makes mages the only class that is remotely reliant on MP, and that it makes us about as tanky as warriors. What's the point of having low HP then? Why not just give us a huge amount of HP, other than for flavor reasons, and for Dispel to be an incredibly crippling curse when combined with stuns? Mages are just extremely poorly designed in general.Is HP washing isn't necessary since Big Bang hit? While HP and MP (and defense) probably could still be adjusted, I don't believe they need to be. Mages don't need as much HP because they have Magic Guard which means that only 20% of the damage they take affects their HP anyway. Keep in mind that pot delay would affect MP pots as well.
It'd take a lot of testing and adjusting, but I'm confident that pot-reliance could be eliminated purely by allowing every class to either recover some HP or just avoid taking damage. For example, while the archer class doesn't have any recovery skills, they do get a skill that allows them to dodge at a 20% rate.
Of course, like you said, bosses would still have to lose their "fake hard" attributes, but that's something for which I've been hoping for a long time. The only reason they have them in the first place is, as you said, because of the horrible pot system. "Fake hard" is the effect, not the cause.
MapleStory is 8 years old. It predates WoW (and its mechanics make that pretty obvious). It hasn't kept up with the times and it's extremely impressive that it has survived until now. It may be hard to imagine a MapleStory 2 happening, but Nexon will have to change its focus at some point.
A burst heal is a fast, large heal. It's for situations where you don't have time to wait 2 seconds to deliver a heal. My point wasn't that those skills aren't possible in MapleStory, but that it's possible to make a healing class fun. Heal in MapleStory is an extremely boring AoE that costs next to no mana to spam.
Yeah, exp loss is a peach, especially with the ridiculous level up times that this game already requires.
Boss runs should be designed so that if the entire party fails, the boss can be summoned again. There also needs to be reconnect support. This game is way too punishing for disconnects and deaths (especially when many disconnects are the fault of the game's many glitches).
Please delete this post.
Not sure if Heroes really needed IS. That's basically what you're saying and don't use the berserk argument because Heroes get AC.
A thing I love from Maple Story is how pot-friendly it is. What annoys me of games like Ragnarok Online, is that if you start playing on an official server and have no funds, you will have one hell of a time making your pots last you. You won't enjoy your skills because you worry too much about MP, and often have to stop grinding to sit and auto recover hp/mp. It's boring, it sucks.
In Maple I know that if I play a job and get a new skill, I can spam that skill forever, even just for fun, because pots aren't a big issue. They even made it easier for newcomers in Big Bang, making everything drop pots en masse.
And to be honest, change all of that just to make Bishop's healing decent is not a good idea at all. Don't change the game so it adjusts to Bishops, instead change Bishops to fit the game. For example, if everyone pots already and doesn't need heal, give us a buff that doubles pot healing effects on all party members. Give us good party buffs like Hyper Body, Sharp Eyes, Combat Orders, and whatnot. THOSE are good party skills. Our prime is Holy Symbol, which currently benefits others more than ourselves. It should be 200% for self and 150% for party.
Finally, I agree on bosses with 1/1 + Seduce + Zombify being ridiculous. Might as well give them a skill that casts sudden death. But if that's Nexon's way of rolling, how about giving Bishops the ability to combat those evil boss skills? Like a party skill that when casted, if a party members' hp reaches below 10%, it will automatically fully heal that party member, then it needs to be recasted again. Give it a few secs cooldown. Or give us a skill that can cure seduced people if you cast it standing close to them. Holy Hand or something fancy like that. Also make Heal not instantly kill everyone (who hasn't 30k hp) on Zombify. Instead just make it damage people on a % of hp each heal.
There are many ways to fix things without taking away our benefit to pot. Though I'll admit that pot-cooldown at bosses makes it fun being a Bishop. Cause it's one of the few parts of the game when people actually need you for something besides being a mule.
Yep they do. The idea is just to further buff Chain Lightning on single targets, while keeping the splash damage the same.
Last edited by LegendGospel; 2011-03-20 at 07:24 PM. Reason: Reply to Fiel
Potion spamming is just annoying, though, even if potions are cheap. Potions shouldn't be something you need to train. Having unlimited HP/MP makes things easy, but it is also what makes the game extremely bland and why it's necessary for them to come up with "fake hard" bosses. Look at 2d action RPGs like DFO and Elsword. You can't spam pots in those games, yet you're not waiting around for recovery. Make it so that players can actually last a minute or two (or longer if playing a defensive class like a Paladin) without using potions, and so that they can choose gear and skill options that improve their recovery so that they don't have to deal with downtime. I think that's a much better means of restricting players to monsters their level than the current massive drop in accuracy. You're getting hit too much and you have to sit for a couple seconds (really, you shouldn't need more than 15 seconds to heal to full)? You're adventuring in a place that's too hard for you. Also, it'd be nice to have more stopping points so people don't feel like downtime is downtime. In DFO, that's when you clear a dungeon and you go back to town and turn in quests. In WoW, you heal rapidly when out of combat, and there's quests to turn in, so you don't feel like you're sitting around waiting to heal. In Maple, you barely heal at all out of combat and training is just non-stop combat, so people obviously don't want to be sitting around healing. Get away from the pomegranatety outdated model of grinding from back in the Everquest days that Ragnarok followed and Maple still follows.
Giving Bishops more experience from Holy Symbol solves nothing. It makes Bishops level at the same pace as everyone else without improving their abilities at all. The party experience formula should just shift back toward being more evenly distributed. This game is shifting away from being a pure grind and finally getting more interesting content, so people shouldn't be so concerned about leeching anymore. Like I said earlier, support is extremely difficult to fit into the game without massive changes, so if Bishops are to be changed, they should just be changed to be equal damage dealers. Your primary role should be improved with better gear. Buffs do not scale with gear.
(Sorry for long text walls, I've tried a lot of MMOs and watched them evolve over time, and I feel like I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't)
It'd be fun to see dark impale at the max speed, probably looks crazy.
Why would I use Berserk as an argument? I'm fully aware ACA is more damage than Berserk.
But yes, I'm saying with this revamp, we'd be better off making Brave Slash a new finisher since it's only 27% stronger in its current state than Brandish. It requires level 15 Brave Slash to outdamage Brandish when before it required level 9 and was 48% stronger at level 30. A little speed penalty affects it more than you'd think. I'd rather see a new finisher for raw damage and no specialty (Darkness or Stun) if this is the direction Nexon wants to take with Heroes.
Otherwise, at least put Heroes on par with targets hit. I'm only complaining about mobbing capabilities and lack of range in comparison at this point. The other two warriors hit 6 targets now with a massive amount of damage and range. Heroes aren't as lucky. Panic and Coma require you to be in the traditional melee range and Brave Slash has a much closer range than either ACB or Dark Impale. So drop the Hero's defense and throw it in front of the other warriors with far better survival? I'd be much happier with a nerf to Brave Slash for extra range and targets than a moderately better attacking skill instead of making Brave Slash this slightly stronger Brandish that you use between your real attacks (Panic and Coma).
I'm not bothered with our massive 1v1 damage. I've seen it myself when fully buffed and the mob has Threaten to trigger Chance Attack, but Enrage is a huge boost and an annoyance. At LHC, I find myself with one mob left, so I use Enrage. When I go to a mob of 2 or more, I have to take the time to right-click it. A toggle on the skill (similar to, say, Dark Sight) would be nice. If Enrage is active and the Enrage hotkey is pressed, disable it. I'd have much more appreciation for using the skill in training.
I guess my biggest problem with the patch is the fact that Heroes had a huge gameplay change compared to most classes, well, ever. Yes, Arans, Evans, and DBs had a pretty significant change, but none of them really changed their final play style much. Heroes used finishers as, well, finishers for the longest time. They would drop a group of mobs with a single attack and rebuild their combo fighting new mobs. It just seems like an odd choice to make finishers a bigger role for Heroes all the way into the 4th job. I'm assuming the changes aren't set in stone. If they release as is, I'm not sure how I'm actually going to take it. Range and Achilles was a Hero's safety net, and without either, it's a high-risk class that has too much risk for the gain.
I will agree that Coma and Panic should have a fixed range if they are going to see more use.
Maybe lower the orb cost per cast of each. Maybe.
Allowing it to inflict darkness on bosses, for a longer duration, would likely help too.
We'll just have to see what comes in the next patch.
Coma is useless sadly. It does less damage than Panic. It costs more orbs than Panic. It stuns, but that doesn't matter because they become unstunned your next attack. If you're aiming for Chance Attack, unless having both Stun and Darkness makes you do more damage, which I'm fairly certain it doesn't, the Stun duration is also lower than the Darkness duration. If they make Coma uninterruptable stun like Charge Blow, then it would be useful. Otherwise, it should either hit more mobs, or Panic should hit less mobs, or they should have different ranges to warrant use.
To be honest, the fact that Heroes have Rush and Monster Magnet, I don't see why they should be complaining so much about range. In fact, using Monster Magnet + Panic is better DPS than Brave Slash + Panic on mobs of six, and with Combat Orders, it basically matches neutral ACB if you use it on 9 or 10 orbs (without CO, it's ~7940%/s, or ~7350%/s if you want to use a crappy macro), and Monster Magnet stuns so you trigger Chance Attack on monsters that are stunnable.
With that said,
Monster Magnet + Panic (Manual 8~10 orb) 6 mobs:
~7940%/s
Brave Slash + Panic + Panic Macro 6 mobs:
~7700%/s
Brave Slash + Panic Macro 3 mobs:
~4860%/s
Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 6 mobs:
8306%/s
Holy Lightning Advanced Charge Blow 3 mobs:
4208%/s
Berserk Dark Impale 6 mobs:
7543%/s
Berserk Dark Impale 3 mobs:
3829%/s
Last edited by JoeTang; 2011-03-21 at 03:41 AM.
6:4 EXP Ratio, huh? Sounds like leeching will be coming back.
If they're trying to please the Bishops, they're doing it wrong. I think it would be better to keep the old ratio, but...
1. Increase EXP obtained from Heal.
AND
2. Make all Cleric/Priest/Bishop party buffs have an additional property that doubles EXP (or triple, if it's not too broken) obtained from other party members' kills. Make this property void when not in a party.
If they wanted to please bishops, then they should tie in an additional experience gain with buff mastery (And speaking of which, buff mastery also needs a big revamp, because it totally screws up the timing of Bishop buffs with other members of the party). The 6:4 actually doesn't seem all that bad now when I think back about it. It actually may cause players to fight in groups more instead of being stationed to individualized platforms which is an especially good thing for weaker players.
I still think if the party members kill at a consistent rate, then 8:2 or 6:4 shit doesn't matter.
It doesnt matter if all party members kill and deal damage at the same rate. However, that isnt the case when some players are significantly stronger than other players, and the 8:2 model favours those that do more damage and the 6:4 model favours those that do less damage (bishops, especially).
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