[KMS]Inkwell Diary # 72 - Night Walker skill preview

[ShinkuDragon]

I am sorry but no, there was no sacifice made for Dark Impale, there was no dumbing down of Dark Knights for Dark Impale.



Before Dark Impale it was "When in doubt, spam Crusher." Fury was only useful in like 1 - 3 situations tops.


You go to one map that is good for Crusher and you spam it, you go to one map that is good for Fury and you spam it, you go to any map now and spam Dark Impale, guess what, there isn't a difference between the three.



At no point where Dark Knights better than they are now, at no point where they ever dumbed down (Except for the Berserk change but Berserk was retarded in the first place, it would have been better if there was only certain skills you could use while in Berserk mode instead of just improving your overall damage), at no point did Dark Knights take more skill to play than they do now.




Dark Knights are the only class in the game that have managed to stay consistently consistent in what they are and what they do.

when i tried empress back then, it required me to use everything in my arsenal, sacrifice on empress herself, fury when she summoned the mobs, fury when she summoned the knights, and then crusher when some of the knights had died.

same for c/zakum, fury was used whenever he summoned to keep the mobs at bay along with roar, fury with the arms, and sacrifice on the body. same for HT. while training in LHC you had to alternate fury and crusher too. we had skills that we used depending on the circumstance. now no matter the circumstance, spamming impale is better. buster sucks so hard it isn't even worth putting a point in third job.

using berzerk back then certainly required more skill, i enjoyed having to pay attention to it and thinking "i can take another hit after which i'll have to pot, i could also use this other pot now to remain within berzerk range. that's probably my love for quick math however, but it wasn't as easy as "spam impale and don't hit DR" that we have now. i find both of these changes as dumbing down the class.

i may not be a champion MMO'er or anything of the sort, but you shouldn't have all your attacking skills become 100% obsolete.

and i consider losing achilles a "sacrifice" even with my nutjob 4 second invincibility after every hit, i've still had bullpomegranate deaths that could have been avoided if i had achilles.

[Mazz]

I am sorry but no, there was no sacifice made for Dark Impale, there was no dumbing down of Dark Knights for Dark Impale.

Before Dark Impale it was "When in doubt, spam Crusher." Fury was only useful in like 1 - 3 situations tops.

You go to one map that is good for Crusher and you spam it, you go to one map that is good for Fury and you spam it, you go to any map now and spam Dark Impale, guess what, there isn't a difference between the three.

At no point where Dark Knights better than they are now, at no point where they ever dumbed down (Except for the Berserk change but Berserk was retarded in the first place, it would have been better if there was only certain skills you could use while in Berserk mode instead of just improving your overall damage), at no point did Dark Knights take more skill to play than they do now.

Dark Knights are the only class in the game that have managed to stay consistently consistent in what they are and what they do.

...have you ever played a Dark Knight?

[Justin]

There's starting to be more emphasis on positioning in fights so it's not so bad.

As long as they don't think that making bosses on magnus with < 20% HP levels is okay, I'm perfectly fine with this as well. That crap is just stupid. Not nearly so much skill as it is just dumb luck.

[Even]

when i tried empress back then, it required me to use everything in my arsenal, sacrifice on empress herself, fury when she summoned the mobs, fury when she summoned the knights, and then crusher when some of the knights had died.

same for c/zakum, fury was used whenever he summoned to keep the mobs at bay along with roar, fury with the arms, and sacrifice on the body. same for HT. while training in LHC you had to alternate fury and crusher too. we had skills that we used depending on the circumstance. now no matter the circumstance, spamming impale is better. buster sucks so hard it isn't even worth putting a point in third job.

using berzerk back then certainly required more skill, i enjoyed having to pay attention to it and thinking "i can take another hit after which i'll have to pot, i could also use this other pot now to remain within berzerk range. that's probably my love for quick math however, but it wasn't as easy as "spam impale and don't hit DR" that we have now. i find both of these changes as dumbing down the class.

i may not be a champion MMO'er or anything of the sort, but you shouldn't have all your attacking skills become 100% obsolete.

and i consider losing achilles a "sacrifice" even with my nutjob 4 second invincibility after every hit, i've still had bullpomegranate deaths that could have been avoided if i had achilles.

I still dont understand why rush and monster magner are in 4th job for adventurers, all new jobs have them in 2nd &/or 3rd. Just look at ds, a monster magnet skill in 2nd job, a rushing skill in 2nd job, an aoe monster magnet like skill in 3rd job and if that was not enough, a guardian skill in 3rd job along with paladin's version of achilles in 4th job. Makes a lot more sense if they dump rush into 2nd job and monster magnet in 3rd, give all warriors something more useful in 4th job like achilles for hero/drk.

DS is a very mobile warrior and is tankier than drk's makes no sense at all (no hb does not count when decent hb exist)

[ShinkuDragon]

I still dont understand why rush and monster magner are in 4th job for adventurers, all new jobs have them in 2nd &/or 3rd. Just look at ds, a monster magnet skill in 2nd job, a rushing skill in 2nd job, an aoe monster magnet like skill in 3rd job and if that was not enough, a guardian skill in 3rd job along with paladin's version of achilles in 4th job. Makes a lot more sense if they dump rush into 2nd job and monster magnet in 3rd, give all warriors something more useful in 4th job like achilles for hero/drk.

DS is a very mobile warrior and is tankier than drk's makes no sense at all (no hb does not count when decent hb exist)

arans have drain and achilles, demon slayers have their own drain-y ability along with achilles and a heckuva large resistance, mercedes freaking have achilles, yadda yadda. let's not turn this thread into another "drk want stuff back" thread though, i'm bored of even those by now.

[MetaSeraphim]

i may not be a champion MMO'er or anything of the sort, but you shouldn't have all your attacking skills become 100% obsolete.

I do believe the entire point of RPG's has flown over your head. Tell me, besides at Grandpa Balrog where do you actively use Power Strike or Slash Blast? Besides for fun. When was the last time you use Ground Wave or whatever it is called?

As your character progresses in the game and becomes stronger and gets a new job of course some new skills are going to come along and make the old ones worthless. That is how RPG's have been for eons.

...have you ever played a Dark Knight?

Have you? My first character was a Dark Knight, and I've remade it at least 10 different times over the years. Pretty sure I was playing a Spearman before Shinku over here. Of course that doesn't mean I know more, but I still strongly disagree with the notion that Dark Knights have lost something, besides achilles.

(no hb does not count when decent hb exist)

Hyper Hyper Body can give twice as much HP and MP as Decent HB, also, Decent HB isn't a party skill.

[Mazz]

Have you? My first character was a Dark Knight, and I've remade it at least 10 different times over the years. Pretty sure I was playing a Spearman before Shinku over here. Of course that doesn't mean I know more, but I still strongly disagree with the notion that Dark Knights have lost something, besides achilles.

As was mine. The reason I quit it was because they lost the main thing making them fun/challenging. Big Bang royally f'ucked them over with more than just ruining Berserk. People used to choose either Spear or Pole Arm, and use Buster or Fury depending which weapon they decided to use. If you went with a Spear you'd pretty much only use Buster, aside from Fury to gather large mobs (Gobies/Himes), and if you went with a Pole Arm you'd use Fury and Sacrifice. I loved the idea of one class being able to choose two separate paths. Achilles is another thing entirely, and I agree it's stupid that Dark Knights don't have it, but that isn't the reason I think Dark Knights have lost something.

I think I'd probably still be playing a Dark Knight (or warrior classes at least) if Berserk wasn't changed.

[Even]

Hyper Hyper Body can give twice as much HP and MP as Decent HB, also, Decent HB isn't a party skill.

60% does not mean twice as much hp, especially not with all these equips giving you % hp from before, like dom pendant or chtp. This also means your 4k hp will not turn into 6k hp with hb on, it will be like 1000 hp bonus because you probably have some % hp gear from before that allowed you to achieve 4k hp in the first place.

% hp on hb is outdated, it used to be a time when it actually meant a big difference, but now you can just get your 15% hyper, your normal skill probably increase by something from 20-40%, hell even a link skill that gives you 15% & on top of that most end game sets have a part where you gain 10-15% hp. Either make hb stack with other %, sorta like berserk or give drk's a passive effect that works exactly achilles. Then I can agree that hb is useful, but for now its better of not having hb and get achilles back, since most other classes dont need hb for bossing.

And achilles helped you against 1/1+seduce while hb does not, which is why my merc use 0 wheels at cht/czak while my drk friend burn up to 3-5 depending on his luck.

But anyway we are going way off topic now, lets end this discussion.

[ShinkuDragon]

I do believe the entire point of RPG's has flown over your head. Tell me, besides at Grandpa Balrog where do you actively use Power Strike or Slash Blast? Besides for fun. When was the last time you use Ground Wave or whatever it is called?

As your character progresses in the game and becomes stronger and gets a new job of course some new skills are going to come along and make the old ones worthless. That is how RPG's have been for eons.



Have you? My first character was a Dark Knight, and I've remade it at least 10 different times over the years. Pretty sure I was playing a Spearman before Shinku over here. Of course that doesn't mean I know more, but I still strongly disagree with the notion that Dark Knights have lost something, besides achilles.



Hyper Hyper Body can give twice as much HP and MP as Decent HB, also, Decent HB isn't a party skill.

before we didn't use SB and PS past third job. no we don't use PS, SB, wavethinguie, buster, and fury. the whole point of rpg's is growing stronger yes, but they're not "let's replace everything we knew", but rather "let's improve on it" final fantasy has the cure, cura, curaga, curaja. shell, shellga, and so on, same for offensive magic. the offensive magic (and skills) all have variety, you can use some better or worse depending on the situation, like we could use fury or crusher better depending on the situation.

tales of- also tends to allow you to use low level skills, and rewards you in fact because they combo into better skills.

what other rpg's can i think of... eeh, that MMORPG spirit tales i think was called, every skill you learned, even those at level 1, stayed useful for the rest of your gameplay. dragon nest also has the low level skills have some use at higher levels, be it comboing or specific attributes. maple is the only game that keeps getting dumbed down by having everything replaced by a single skill. no variation at all.

decent HB is also undispellable for most classes, which i value a lot more than some extra HP, plus getting hp nowadays isn't really even required for most classes like it was back then.

@Even; he isn't wrong about the HP, if using decent HB gave you 4k hp, regHB+boost would give you 8k, that is twice the bonus.

[MetaSeraphim]

I think I'd probably still be playing a Dark Knight (or warrior classes at least) if Berserk wasn't changed.

Things change over time. I know about the how spear and polearm thing, I was a PPA back in the day, an I still am since I have never used a spear to train or boss on my current Dark Knight. Everything, the game, the maps and the classes have been streamlined.


But! That doesn't mean something was lost, the old magic was replaced by new magic, but it is still there, it isn't gone, it isn't deleted, it is always in your heart.


To me, thinking Dark Knights have lost something besides one skill seems more about nostalgia than anything else. I loved the Dark Knights of old, I love the Dark Knights of now, I love Dark Knights period.

[MetaSeraphim]

60% does not mean twice as much hp

No, 60% doesn't, but 80% does. Notice I said Hyper Hyper Body?

cure, cura, curaga, curaja. shell, shellga,
tales of- also tends to allow you to use low level skills, and rewards you in fact because they combo into better skills.

You're supporting my view more than anything. Dark Impale is the next step. Crusher is Cura, Fury is Curaga and Dark Impale is Curaja. Once you have Curaja you aren't going to be using the other three because they are useless.


Also, in Tales Of- games you combine two skills and get a new one. Crusher + Fury = Dark Impale. Or would it be better if only we could use Dark Impale after using both Crusher and Fury?

[Even]

@Even; he isn't wrong about the HP, if using decent HB gave you 4k hp, regHB+boost would give you 8k, that is twice the bonus.

Right, totally misread that, my bad, still doesnt make it more useful than achilles imo.

@MetaSeraphim Personally I would never dump a point into that hyper skill over dark impale/berserk hypers, that 20% wont make a difference at all.

[ShinkuDragon]

No, 60% doesn't, but 80% does. Notice I said Hyper Hyper Body?



You're supporting my view more than anything. Dark Impale is the next step. Crusher is Cura, Fury is Curaga and Dark Impale is Curaja. Once you have Curaja you aren't going to be using the other three because they are useless.


Also, in Tales Of- games you combine two skills and get a new one. Crusher + Fury = Dark Impale. Or would it be better if only we could use Dark Impale after using both Crusher and Fury?

so we're a bishop that only has curaja, no protectga, dispelga, shellga or any other skills. that's what i was aiming my post towards. they have many options to use, we just have... one dark synthesis kinda changed that at least.

i've mainly played the ToS system, where you combo into stuff for extra damage. classes like DB's and such had that, a great example of a class that has it right now is hayato. they have a variety of skills, some ended useless yes, but most of them are attacks and can be used one way or another., i'm aware of the fon system of abyss (which is a weird system imo, but well)

do note, i still like my dark knight. i just think it has lost the variety it had and has been dumbed down way too hard.

[MetaSeraphim]

so we're a bishop that only has curaja, no protectga, dispelga, shellga or any other skills. that's what i was aiming my post towards. they have many options to use, we just have... one dark synthesis kinda changed that at least.

In the past we had Crusher, Fury, Sacrifice and Dragon Roar. Now we have Dark Impale, Dark Synthesis, Dragon Roar and Sacrifice.


We have the same amount of useable attacks now as we did then. Both Sacrifice and Dragon Roar are still useful during training or bossing.


The only true thing we lost was our defense skill.

[ShinkuDragon]

In the past we had Crusher, Fury, Sacrifice and Dragon Roar. Now we have Dark Impale, Dark Synthesis, Dragon Roar and Sacrifice.


We have the same amount of useable attacks now as we did then. Both Sacrifice and Dragon Roar are still useful during training or bossing.


The only true thing we lost was our defense skill.

sacrifice shouldn't be used at all while training, as for bossing, i think calculations showed it was only worth it at PB and empress, both of which move too much for sacrifice to be really viable.

we'd be spamming dark synthesis if it didn't have a cooldown (points at pre-BB mages). not that a cooldown is a bad thing (even though nexon can't implement them correctly it seems)

dragon roar back then and now is still used more as an utility move, which is also fine, but it's never really used offensively. granted though, sacrifice back then was also an utility move compared to the attack (albeit sucky) that it is now.

but eeh, i've stated my point, i liked having more than one attack to go to, to me the highlight of drk's was post-BB when -all- our skills had an use. even if berzerk was dumbed down. i even got soul driver and that had an use too!

[MetaSeraphim]

but eeh, i've stated my point, i liked having more than one attack to go to, to me the highlight of drk's was post-BB when -all- our skills had an use. even if berzerk was dumbed down. i even got soul driver and that had an use too!

So, Sacrifice has the same purpose now as it did then, Dragon Roar has the same purpose now as it did then.


The only things that have changed is that intead of having the option to spam two skills (Crusher and Fury) you have the option to spam one skill (Dark Impale). And the loss of a defense skill. (Let's not talk about Berserk because that area is too opinionated.)


Which just goes to show us that Dark Knights have hardly changed, which just solidifies my statement that Dark Knights have stayed consistently consistent.

[iVege]

I'm just going to move down the thread so I may mention things already covered.

we didn't want DI! and your ACB destroys impale in every possible way, including range! your 1h weapon has better range than a spear -flips logic-

Not in PDR ignore or OHKO rate possible ways .-. Or the ability to suck.

I am sorry but no, there was no sacifice made for Dark Impale

I believe he meant Achilles, not the apparent 'dumbing down'.

there was no dumbing down of Dark Knights for Dark Impale. Before Dark Impale it was "When in doubt, spam Crusher." Fury was only useful in like 1 - 3 situations tops.

I believe it was more "spam Buster of Fury depending on the number of mobs". Sometimes, I certainly was in doubt. How could I tell how many there were in that crowd of mobs? Oh well, there was definitely more than 3—I just Fury'd.

You go to one map that is good for Crusher and you spam it, you go to one map that is good for Fury and you spam it, you go to any map now and spam Dark Impale, guess what, there isn't a difference between the three.

I don't know about you, but I found myself encountering mobs groups of all kinds of sizes when I trained a Dragon Knight. Then came LKC's Under the Castle Walls 1, where there were fewer mobs on the floating platforms (and therefore more Buster, but Fury definitely had more fun before the LKC levels, not to say that Buster had no fun at all), and more mobs on the ground platform (enough for Fury to be used and benefit you). It was like a map designed for Dragon Knights.

At no point where Dark Knights better than they are now, at no point where they ever dumbed down (Except for the Berserk change but Berserk was retarded in the first place, it would have been better if there was only certain skills you could use while in Berserk mode instead of just improving your overall damage), at no point did Dark Knights take more skill to play than they do now.

Dark Knights were 1000x better than they are now when Iron Will's duration wasn't lowered to 240 seconds. Then they had to add Hyper Body - Persist...

Dark Knights are the only class in the game that have managed to stay consistently consistent in what they are and what they do.

No one likes Hyper Body anymore, that's for sure. And they really moved away from the dragon theme after Ascension, changing from Dragon Knights with a dark spirit to an actual Dark Knight (reinforced by Dark Thirst and Potato), which would be cool if Demon Slayers and Demon Avengers didn't exist.

I still dont understand why rush and monster magner are in 4th job for adventurers, all new jobs have them in 2nd &/or 3rd. Just look at ds, a monster magnet skill in 2nd job, a rushing skill in 2nd job, an aoe monster magnet like skill in 3rd job and if that was not enough, a guardian skill in 3rd job along with paladin's version of achilles in 4th job. Makes a lot more sense if they dump rush into 2nd job and monster magnet in 3rd, give all warriors something more useful in 4th job like achilles for hero/drk.

Because there would be too much work in finding out what to replace 60 SP (or 90 SP including Power Stance) worth of skills with. We already have so much spare SP thanks to Tempest. And then you'll also have to find which skills in 2nd and/or 3rd job to replace. Too much work for explorer warriors.

DS is a very mobile warrior and is tankier than drk's makes no sense at all (no hb does not count when decent hb exist)

No, they both have their ups and downs. Decent Hyper Body cannot be dispelled and is less damaging to your draining ability (unless you need it) and syncs with Iron Will, but it costs more MP, adds less maximum HP and maximum MP (if you need it) and doesn't affect party members.

arans have drain and achilles, demon slayers have their own drain-y ability along with achilles and a heckuva large resistance, mercedes freaking have achilles, yadda yadda. let's not turn this thread into another "drk want stuff back" thread though, i'm bored of even those by now.

I love 'em.

Of course that doesn't mean I know more, but I still strongly disagree with the notion that Dark Knights have lost something, besides achilles.

Iron Will's duration. Lost. All 60 seconds. And then there's Dragon Blood's lovely pulse animation. Hex's animation also became a lot more of a rare occurrence, from every 4 seconds to every 100 seconds (unless you cancel the buff, which is troublesome, and even then, it has a 4 second frequency). I'm okay with that though, as there are now more variety/randomness in the symbols appearing.

Hyper Hyper Body can give twice as much HP and MP as Decent HB, also, Decent HB isn't a party skill.

Don't forget the extra 20 seconds! But really, no one will use hyper Hyper Body. I don't even use normal Hyper Body. Oh, and Iron Will? I don't even have SP in that piece of pomegranate.

As was mine. The reason I quit it was because they lost the main thing making them fun/challenging. Big Bang royally f'ucked them over with more than just ruining Berserk.

I really don't want to have the old Berserk with the state of the game is in right now.

People used to choose either Spear or Pole Arm, and use Buster or Fury depending which weapon they decided to use. If you went with a Spear you'd pretty much only use Buster, aside from Fury to gather large mobs (Gobies/Himes), and if you went with a Pole Arm you'd use Fury and Sacrifice. I loved the idea of one class being able to choose two separate paths.

In my completely personal opinion, that was dumb and I hated the duplicate skills. And you could already choose your path when you advanced from 1st job.

60% does not mean twice as much hp, especially not with all these equips giving you % hp from before, like dom pendant or chtp. This also means your 4k hp will not turn into 6k hp with hb on, it will be like 1000 hp bonus because you probably have some % hp gear from before that allowed you to achieve 4k hp in the first place.

Doesn't change the fact that 60% (80%) is twice as effective as 40% regardless of other % HP sources.

You're supporting my view more than anything. Dark Impale is the next step. Crusher is Cura, Fury is Curaga and Dark Impale is Curaja. Once you have Curaja you aren't going to be using the other three because they are useless.

No, he's not. Buster is Cure and Fury is Shell (Fury isn't an improvement over Buster, but its damage to mob count counterpart). Dark Impale is CureShell when @ShinkuDragon wants Dark Knights to have Cura and Shellga.

do note, i still like my dark knight. i just think it has lost the variety it had and has been dumbed down way too hard.

Other classes like Mercedes were dumbed down even more, imo.

In the past we had Crusher, Fury, Sacrifice and Dragon Roar. Now we have Dark Impale, Dark Synthesis, Dragon Roar and Sacrifice.

We have the same amount of useable attacks now as we did then. Both Sacrifice and Dragon Roar are still useful during training or bossing.

Yes, but Potato is just a Snipe skill that we press every few seconds. It won't keep me awake. I won't need to see how many mobs there are, only press a key every 8 seconds. Angelic Buster, for example, was 'fun' enough to keep me awake thanks to her recharge system. The 'mob count' system that Dark Knights used to have would have done the same thing. Yeah, I don't even know how to have fun. It's all about staying awake.

And Sacrifice is used even less now thanks to all the Dark Impale hyper skills.

The only true thing we lost was our defense skill.

Yes, it's so sad that Iron Will is now lost. So sad.

[Arrol]

Ok, I think I should say something, why don't you two take this private or in a visitor message? This debate used to be about a DW animation and has now spurned into a Drks vs Paladin argument.

[iVege]

Ok, I think I should say something, why don't you two take this private or in a visitor message? This debate used to be about a DW animation and has now spurned into a Drks vs Paladin argument.

Funny, because it has already spiralled far from being a Dark Knight vs Paladin argument. But please, keep it public or I wouldn't be able to read it.

[Haseo]

I thought there was an update/preview for Blaze Wizards/Night Walkers, but then I realized it was a continuation of the argument );