On the Issue of Power Creep and How It Relates to Nexon

[Aircalibur]

Can't watch the video right now because I'm at work and don't have my headphones, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what he's going to say. I'm not a big fan of Extra Credits because it's the usual sort of idealistic armchair theorizing about how games should be designed for sustainability and player enjoyment coming from someone who hasn't actually worked with the constraints involved in building a game.

Doesn't James Portnow work as a game designer? I think there's some marginal relevance there. Sure, it's not straight up building game engines, but designers do have some involvements with the mechanics involved.

And there's still story, mechanics, characters, all things they discuss. It's a bit more than idealistic.

[valhala556]

Can't watch the video right now because I'm at work and don't have my headphones, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what he's going to say. I'm not a big fan of Extra Credits because it's the usual sort of idealistic armchair theorizing about how games should be designed for sustainability and player enjoyment coming from someone who hasn't actually worked with the constraints involved in building a game.

Yeah the videos are idealistic but they really arent too unreasonable. And they make sense to do if you care about sustainability which includes player enjoyment. I wasn't sure if he worked with the constraints in building a game and Ill take your word for it that he hasnt. But he knows how things should flow in a world where people aren't just lazy f'ucks /* sorry for cursing but the work 'lazy' needed more emphasis */ that try to get the most tangible object with the lease amount of effort.

But you should check out the video with an open mind about the topic.

[Dusk]

It's not like he's only preaching wistful, imaginative idealism. The things talked about can be achieved, though, as often stated, he never says it's going to be easy. I think you have a skewed impression of the show in general. You should also definitely take the time to watch the video upon arrival back at your dwelling place.

Just watched the video on power creep; it's more or less what I expected. I agree with the gist of his arguments, but having played every game he talks about except the Zynga one, I don't feel that his examples really make sense.

Power creep in WoW isn't really a case of "force players to keep playing to keep up" as it is a way to keep new content actually meaningful. His example of giving players a stun instead of a blink doesn't make sense in a game with a PvE context.

There's no way to really fall behind in WoW; the level curve is slashed every expansion, you can skip the raid progression that all the long-time players went through, and they consistently nerf older content so that people can run through and experience it without an organized raid group. Plus, the feel of being powerful comes more from your crit, hit, and haste stats than the actual numbers you're putting out. Those get slashed every expansion and players have to rebuild them.

He claims that WoW has attempted to solve the problem of power creep by adding heroic dungeons ... which doesn't make any sense at all. Heroic dungeons are max level dungeons that are part of the process of gearing up for the real (PvE) endgame, which are raids. They are subject to the same power creep that occurs in the raids, in which each tier of heroic dungeons requires higher stats than the last and drops better loot. Unless he means heroic raids, which are a "hard mode" version of the same raids for the more hardcore players. Those don't really have anything to do with power creep, either. They exist concurrently with the normal difficulty raids.

The only real issue with power creep in WoW other than the number inflation is that the old content becomes irrelevant over time. That's actually been addressed with transmogrification; the ability to change the look of your gear to another piece of gear you own.

As far as LoL goes, I thought it was really weird that he was comparing a game that is mostly about PvE to a game that is entirely PvP. The design principles he talks about actually work a lot better here. Also, I don't know if he's played Dota 2 or Team Fortress 2, because they are far better examples of actually making characters unique. A lot of the champions in LoL follow similar skill design patterns.

... Getting distracted so I'll just leave this post here even though it's kind of incomplete and unfocused.

[valhala556]

-snip-

... Getting distracted so I'll just leave this post here even though it's kind of incomplete and unfocused.

Its somewhat focused. I think you are taking his examples a little to literal. He probably used WoW because it has a Larger more mature fan base which I think is his primary audience. The mature part. And yes thinking back it is more focus of the PvP aspect but the same thing can be aplied to the PvE with alittle more thought. For Maplestory they can get rid of the -1second of inviable after everyhit. Implement a new system where everysecond has a max cap of 5 hits. So you can get hit a max 5 times in one second for any second. Which actually seems to be a quite complicated way of programing. Only way I can see if after first hit it counts number of hits in that second. So that way is bad. But the concept still works with maplestory in some sense in that its simple & You can have potential to change it up.

To look at another angle of this idea. Which MS has kinda already used in awsan. You can have specific attacks that can be stacked over your invincibility frames. The % attacks in Aswan. But instead of having that you can have the attacks still go through damage, and calculate the hit/miss rate and any other dodge skill. So players can still get hit more frequently without it being too annoy/hard to play with.

And Again I know you don't like the examples but they are just examples. They don't have to be exactly what they mean but its for other people to understand what they are trying to say.

I don't see how the having your item look like something else has anything to do with power creep. So could you explain that one?

[Dusk]

Its somewhat focused. I think you are taking his examples a little to literal. He probably used WoW because it has a Larger more mature fan base which I think is his primary audience. The mature part. And yes thinking back it is more focus of the PvP aspect but the same thing can be aplied to the PvE with alittle more thought. For Maplestory they can get rid of the -1second of inviable after everyhit. Implement a new system where everysecond has a max cap of 5 hits. So you can get hit a max 5 times in one second for any second. Which actually seems to be a quite complicated way of programing. Only way I can see if after first hit it counts number of hits in that second. So that way is bad. But the concept still works with maplestory in some sense in that its simple & You can have potential to change it up.

To look at another angle of this idea. Which MS has kinda already used in awsan. You can have specific attacks that can be stacked over your invincibility frames. The % attacks in Aswan. But instead of having that you can have the attacks still go through damage, and calculate the hit/miss rate and any other dodge skill. So players can still get hit more frequently without it being too annoy/hard to play with.

And Again I know you don't like the examples but they are just examples. They don't have to be exactly what they mean but its for other people to understand what they are trying to say.

I don't see how the having your item look like something else has anything to do with power creep. So could you explain that one?

The main point of the video is that power creep is bad because 1. it invalidates older content and 2. the treadmill feels bad. This is definitely an issue with WoW. Until mid Cataclysm, whenever a new raid tier came out, the older content up to (and later, including) the previous raid tier would become completely obsolete. The gear was no longer useful, because all of the new stuff was statistically better in every way. After they introduced higher level dungeons to help people catch up without slogging through all the old raids just to gear up for the current raid tier in late BC, the only reason you'd ever do it was to farm for a specific (shiny but useless) legendary or get an achievement.

Transmog has alleviated that, somewhat. A lot of the old item sets look awesome, so people have incentive to go back and farm for those. This keeps the older content somewhat useful, even if it is no longer relevant to current gameplay.

Back to what I was saying about LoL, I just thought it was a pretty stark transition between his examples. LoL is an entirely PvP game in which your characters do not retain progress between games. There doesn't need to be any increase in power over time, because they are selling champions based on completionism and aesthetic whimsy. Which is of course, good design, but entirely inapplicable to a game where characters are persistent and get stronger over time. He needed to look at examples of how power creep has been handled in other MMORPGs. To my knowledge, there aren't any systems that work well without giving players more power over time in some way, at least numerically, though Guild Wars 2 looks like it will do a pretty good job of keeping old content relevant, with the level downscaling, and since it's PvP focused and there are a lot of completion and cosmetic upgrades to work for in PvE, they may be able to keep power creep reasonable in expansions.

[valhala556]

The main point of the video is that power creep is bad because 1. it invalidates older content and 2. the treadmill feels bad. This is definitely an issue with WoW. Until mid Cataclysm, whenever a new raid tier came out, the older content up to (and later, including) the previous raid tier would become completely obsolete. The gear was no longer useful, because all of the new stuff was statistically better in every way. After they introduced higher level dungeons to help people catch up without slogging through all the old raids just to gear up for the current raid tier in late BC, the only reason you'd ever do it was to farm for a specific (shiny but useless) legendary or get an achievement.

Transmog has alleviated that, somewhat. A lot of the old item sets look awesome, so people have incentive to go back and farm for those. This keeps the older content somewhat useful, even if it is no longer relevant to current gameplay.

Back to what I was saying about LoL, I just thought it was a pretty stark transition between his examples. LoL is an entirely PvP game in which your characters do not retain progress between games. There doesn't need to be any increase in power over time, because they are selling champions based on completionism and aesthetic whimsy. Which is of course, good design, but entirely inapplicable to a game where characters are persistent and get stronger over time. He needed to look at examples of how power creep has been handled in other MMORPGs. To my knowledge, there aren't any systems that work well without giving players more power over time in some way, at least numerically, though Guild Wars 2 looks like it will do a pretty good job of keeping old content relevant, with the level downscaling, and since it's PvP focused and there are a lot of completion and cosmetic upgrades to work for in PvE, they may be able to keep power creep reasonable in expansions.

OHH ok now the old set looking makes more sense now. And Now That I see more of what LoL is, it is a pretty bad example. But I still think he handled it pretty well with what he had to work with. And Its not like you cant control Powercreep In PVE. Its just that the game itself needs more systems of doing damage other than straight hitting. Though for some reason I feel like the arguement is done. So im probably going to stop here.

[Seanny]

OHH ok now the old set looking makes more sense now. And Now That I see more of what LoL is, it is a pretty bad example. But I still think he handled it pretty well with what he had to work with. And Its not like you cant control Powercreep In PVE. Its just that the game itself needs more systems of doing damage other than straight hitting. Though for some reason I feel like the arguement is done. So im probably going to stop here.

I do agree that the example was bad due to the base nature of the games, but i do believe the concept of incomparables at its core would still do maple, or any PvE game good in terms of gear.

Say the Von Leon set and empress gear had more specialized unique effects. Instead of Empress/Lionheart completely wiping out Von leon in terms of base potential, What if Von Leon was mobility focused, with a buff that allowed slipstream to be used in midair,increased mage teleport distances and so on, whereas Empress would provide more drastic survival bonuses such as HP increases, or a 10% chance to survive an attack that would have killed you with 1 hp.

Now, that was a rushed example, and even i can clearly tell that most players would prefer Empress still because of the better bossing capabilities, but VL set would still have SOME reason to be used other than 'its cheaper than Empress to get'.

As far as the heroic example, i had assumed, as someone who doesn't play it, that it meant that old maps that were being ignored/unseen by most finally got some use by creating a buffed version of it. So that all the work into initially designing those places weren't a complete waste due to power creep in dungeon usefulness. (though it comes off as a bit lazy reading it to myself as opposed to just plain making new content)

[valhala556]

I do agree that the example was bad due to the base nature of the games, but i do believe the concept of incomparables at its core would still do maple, or any PvE game good in terms of gear.

Say the Von Leon set and empress gear had more specialized unique effects. Instead of Empress/Lionheart completely wiping out Von leon in terms of base potential, What if Von Leon was mobility focused, with a buff that allowed slipstream to be used in midair,increased mage teleport distances and so on, whereas Empress would provide more drastic survival bonuses such as HP increases, or a 10% chance to survive an attack that would have killed you with 1 hp.

Now, that was a rushed example, and even i can clearly tell that most players would prefer Empress still because of the better bossing capabilities, but VL set would still have SOME reason to be used other than 'its cheaper than Empress to get'.

As far as the heroic example, i had assumed, as someone who doesn't play it, that it meant that old maps that were being ignored/unseen by most finally got some use by creating a buffed version of it. So that all the work into initially designing those places weren't a complete waste due to power creep in dungeon usefulness. (though it comes off as a bit lazy reading it to myself as opposed to just plain making new content)

Yeah maple does need more incomparables. I was bossing on my f/p at czak recently And I found out that seduce +1/1 just plan sucks. It doesnt matter that I have 2seconds of invinciblity or 11k/44k hp/mp (with hb). a seduce + 1/1 then any other attack (including a 1/1) just kills you. And there is no way to get around this. There is like no way to upgrade your defencive capablities on any character other than the skills given. So so damage to defensive incomparables would be nice.

I could rant about how they could fix it or at least change for the better but sometimes I know when Im kicking a dead horse. But on your last note it is very lazy to do that unless they change the landscape for the heroic verson's. But that aside I think maple is built on the idea of power creep. At least in the sence of new characters. Or less (by nexon's logic) no one would play and fund the newer classes if they didnt have more potential to be stronger. and get stronger quicker.

[byakugan]

I find the incomparables example in the video pretty obvious and can easily apply to both PvP or PvE. Say you got 2 chars, one that can stun targets and another one that can teleport. While the teleporter can move faster from target to target and therefore kill and train faster, the stunner can stun the monsters while he kills them, thus reducing the potions he uses and turning cheaper.

In PvP, a char that can stun can paralize his enemies and run or attack, a char that can teleport can hit and get out of range constantly (like battlemages in ms's pvp).

MS has no incomparables or barely has any. From there being only 1 build for every job to follow to yourr stat build being totally about raising only your main stat, and it gets worse by the day.

[valhala556]

I find the incomparables example in the video pretty obvious and can easily apply to both PvP or PvE. Say you got 2 chars, one that can stun targets and another one that can teleport. While the teleporter can move faster from target to target and therefore kill and train faster, the stunner can stun the monsters while he kills them, thus reducing the potions he uses and turning cheaper.

In PvP, a char that can stun can paralize his enemies and run or attack, a char that can teleport can hit and get out of range constantly (like battlemages in ms's pvp).

MS has no incomparables or barely has any. From there being only 1 build for every job to follow to yourr stat build being totally about raising only your main stat, and it gets worse by the day.

Yeah thats true. But you have to keep in mind what the end game looks like. If it's like MS then the stun property is useless because it doesnt affect boss and everyone now can one shot any mob that could be stunned. they would have to apply stun to affect bosses in one way or another. This is just me but personally I dont think their should be jobs that are distinctly better at pvp than pve or vise versa. It creates a segregation of classes.

The incomparables should be made that they have two sort of effects for pvp and pve and player verses Boss (because that is different than just standard enemies) so that 1 effect is useful in all seneros. And I hate to be nitpicky about your examples. But using cheapness of potions really shouldnt be considered a pro/con for incomparables. Yes I know it matters when extreammly poor but when it comes down to it, it doesn't. really affect anything.

[IllegallySane]

I find the incomparables example in the video pretty obvious and can easily apply to both PvP or PvE. Say you got 2 chars, one that can stun targets and another one that can teleport. While the teleporter can move faster from target to target and therefore kill and train faster, the stunner can stun the monsters while he kills them, thus reducing the potions he uses and turning cheaper.

Stunning to save potions is kind of a moot point when the latest RPGs have moved away from potion spamming. In MS's case many classes have a way to heal up HP now, have monster damage more smoothed out via more defensive abilities/passives (either high defenses, avoid, or a combination of the two), or simply abuse the power of NLC potions.

Least in newer games, stuns in PvE are used to stop monsters from using some of their deadliest moves or to allow a the group members to go all out. Overall I'd prefer more mobility in PvE.

In PvP, I find stuns to be much more dangerous. Higher mobility is very annoying, but getting stunned and focus fired can usually mean the end of your team. Two examples I can think of:
1. LoL/MOBA games in general: 2-3 Champions ganging up on one loner? Stun target, all enemy champions can go all out. Target is usually dead in that one assault. Correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I've seen this happen to my friend quite a few times.
2. WoW: There's a reason crowd control (usually stuns) is so crucial in PvP, and why Rogue stunlocks are so loathed.

I'd also bring up TF2, but there's only one real stun ability in that game (Sandman) and the other stun ability is not really useful outside of just messing around (Holiday Punch). And there's a reason why stun weapons are so far and between; getting stunned in an FPS is usually death.

Higher mobility in PvP is still really useful/good. However, in PvP that main idea is you gotta kill your opponent, and there's only so much running room before you gotta head back or your enemy finally catches up to you. So if I were to pick between stunning my opponent or be able to outrun them, I'd take the stuns. Besides, forever kiting leads to more room for error, and also gives your enemies time to rethink their strategy. The games also last longer, which can get boring at times.

[byakugan]

Yeah thats true. But you have to keep in mind what the end game looks like. If it's like MS then the stun property is useless because it doesnt affect boss and everyone now can one shot any mob that could be stunned. they would have to apply stun to affect bosses in one way or another. This is just me but personally I dont think their should be jobs that are distinctly better at pvp than pve or vise versa. It creates a segregation of classes.

The incomparables should be made that they have two sort of effects for pvp and pve and player verses Boss (because that is different than just standard enemies) so that 1 effect is useful in all seneros. And I hate to be nitpicky about your examples. But using cheapness of potions really shouldnt be considered a pro/con for incomparables. Yes I know it matters when extreammly poor but when it comes down to it, it doesn't. really affect anything.

What I said about incomparables wasn't set in MS. I was responding to those saying in this thread that the incomparables example made no sense, when I find it pretty clear what the one talking meant with it. Neither I said a good example of incomparables would be making a char pro in PvE and bad in PvP or anything alike.

I am aware that one of MS biggest flaws is the fact that anything but raw damage is useless as monsters die way faster than status effects can last to show they are of any use.

Stunning to save potions is kind of a moot point when the latest RPGs have moved away from potion spamming. In MS's case many classes have a way to heal up HP now, have monster damage more smoothed out via more defensive abilities/passives (either high defenses, avoid, or a combination of the two), or simply abuse the power of NLC potions.

Again, my examples were not placed in MS. Keep in mind I'm only giving my interpretation of the examples in the EXtraCredits video, which doesn't mention anything near a game as simple as MS.

However, on your commen, stun might mean nothing or be even a waste in the current MS, but I can tell you how back in the days where there was only Ludbrium / Aqua Dungeon, I wished so bad that physical attacks wouldn't cancel out stun effects,in other to save pots.

[AaronRawr]

The best example of power creep in Maplestory that I can think of right now would be Mihile over CK. Mihile essentially made CK's dead content because Mihile has everything a CK has and more. From what I can see, there is absolutely no reason to make a CK over a Mihile.
-CK has a level cap of 120, Mihile has a level cap of 200.
-Mihile has access to more higher-end content that CK's will never reach.
-Mihile has a character link skill that gives 100% stance.
-Mihile has empress's blessing (30), just like CK.
-Mihile can create a UA at lvl 120, just like a CK.
-Mihile receives the bonus 10% exp after level up from 2-120, just like CK.

Another example of power creep in Maplestory is the ever increasing amount of stat upgrades like potential, nebulites and inner abilities. For those of you who remember 10-15 stat earrings being top-dollar, you know what I mean. Now a simple clean earring with 6% stat renders those earrings useless. Might as well toss those aside, and make room for the new. Constantly having to upgrade to the new best system of stat bonuses is power-creep. Now not only is there potential, but you also have to add nebulites to your gear and roll for inner abilities (that even give ridiculous stats like 30-40 per line) to be the best. Who knows what you will have to add in the future, it will still be adding to power creep.

[Takebacker]

The best example of power creep in Maplestory that I can think of right now would be Mihile over CK. Mihile essentially made CK's dead content because Mihile has everything a CK has and more. From what I can see, there is absolutely no reason to make a CK over a Mihile.
-CK has a level cap of 120, Mihile has a level cap of 200.
-Mihile has access to more higher-end content that CK's will never reach.
-Mihile has a character link skill that gives 100% stance.
-Mihile has empress's blessing (30), just like CK.
-Mihile can create a UA at lvl 120, just like a CK.
-Mihile receives the bonus 10% exp after level up from 2-120, just like CK.

Another example of power creep in Maplestory is the ever increasing amount of stat upgrades like potential, nebulites and inner abilities. For those of you who remember 10-15 stat earrings being top-dollar, you know what I mean. Now a simple clean earring with 6% stat renders those earrings useless. Might as well toss those aside, and make room for the new. Constantly having to upgrade to the new best system of stat bonuses is power-creep. Now not only is there potential, but you also have to add nebulites to your gear and roll for inner abilities (that even give ridiculous stats like 30-40 per line) to be the best. Who knows what you will have to add in the future, it will still be adding to power creep.

Mihile is time limited. That's the point.

Constantly is a horrendous overstatement. The gap between nebulites and totems (the biggest upgrade sources we've gotten recently) being released was several MONTHS. Inner ability is hardly power creep in the negative sense, considering it's f'ucking free and the bonuses aren't even that amazing unless you get really lucky. (those 30-40 stat upgrades? yeah, potential doesn't apply to it, aka trash) Inner ability isn't even considered worth it to a lot of the higher leveled community. Power creep existing isn't new and aside from saying it exists, which we all knew, i fail to see what point you're trying to make.

[AaronRawr]

Mihile is time limited. That's the point.

Constantly is a horrendous overstatement. The gap between nebulites and totems (the biggest upgrade sources we've gotten recently) being released was several MONTHS. Inner ability is hardly power creep in the negative sense, considering it's f'ucking free and the bonuses aren't even that amazing unless you get really lucky. (those 30-40 stat upgrades? yeah, potential doesn't apply to it, aka trash) Inner ability isn't even considered worth it to a lot of the higher leveled community. Power creep existing isn't new and aside from saying it exists, which we all knew, i fail to see what point you're trying to make.

I guess my point is that with all these additions, you're constantly being forced to upgrade. What was considered powerful a few months ago is now overshadowed by new, more powerful content.

"Power creep existing isn't new and aside from saying it exists, which we all knew, i fail to see what point you're trying to make."
- I'm just pointing out my views on how power creep is related to Mapelstory, as some people in this thread were convinced that Maplestory doesn't have power creep.

[McAwesomesauce]

The best example of power creep in Maplestory that I can think of right now would be Mihile over CK. Mihile essentially made CK's dead content because Mihile has everything a CK has and more. From what I can see, there is absolutely no reason to make a CK over a Mihile. .

What if I prefer shooting arrows or fireballs or stars to shooting lasers out of my sword?

[Aircalibur]

What if I prefer shooting arrows or fireballs or stars to shooting lasers out of my sword?

Then you might be a redneck.

But no. Mikhail/Michael/Mihile/Where's the Cream filling isn't really all that much of a "creep". He doesn't actually have any real advantages over a Cyg. You know what you're getting into with one of them. It's a controlled factor. If you want to make a UA, then you have just as much reason to make a Mihile as a Cyg. If you want to make a level 200 character, you might not make a Mihile, and you certainly won't make a Cygnus Knight.

[AaronRawr]

He doesn't actually have any real advantages over a Cyg.

If you want to make a UA, then you have just as much reason to make a Mihile as a Cyg.

Actually he does, and that's a huge deciding factor of which to have. Some players are going as far as to delete their CK to make room for a Mihile, simply because of these advantages. (Tossing aside the old, making room for the new).

You know what you're getting into with one of them. It's a controlled factor.

I don't understand what you mean by a controlled factor, could you elaborate?

If you want to make a level 200 character, you might not make a Mihile, and you certainly won't make a Cygnus Knight.

You're just proving how Mihile has another advantage over CK. Some players are going to choose Mihile as their main. They have the option to do this because Mihile has access to end-game content, whereas CK doesn't.

What if I prefer shooting arrows or fireballs or stars to shooting lasers out of my sword?

You have a point there, but I'm going to assume in the future, there will be Oz, Irena, Eckhart, and Hawkeye. I don't see why they wouldn't add the rest in over time.

[Aircalibur]

-snip-

You make some good points.

My point is that you still have a choice if you don't want to make a Mikhail. Mikhail and a Cygnus Knight are comparable, sure, but they're different enough.

What are the reasons you'd make a Mikhail?

1. For the fun of playing the class.
2. Link skill.
3. To make a UA.
4. Extra 10% for 120 levels.

What are the reasons you'd make a Cygnus Knight?

1. For the fun of playing the class.
2. To make a UA.
3. Extra 10% EXP for 120 levels.

The honest fact of the matter is I don't really think people care all that much about Cygnus Knights. I don't think most people care enough about the differences and advantages. Sure, if you make a Mikhail, he can do end game content, but Mikhail isn't all that popular.

Sure, you'll probably make a Mikhail over a Cyg. He's still time limited. What if you want to make a UA in six months?

What if you think of Mikhail like, a special reward. A time limited bonus. A collector's item. Sure he's better than a Cygnus Knight, and sure, probably, very few Knights will be created while he's available. I still don't think he's much of a creep.

I think they also ran into a bit of that "backfiring" they talked about. A lot of Cyg players were pretty unhappy with Mikhail. Their characters were more or less redundant now. Sure, it could be an example of Power Creep, but not the best one.

But then, a lot of Adventurers were unhappy when Cygnus Knights were released. Are they power creep? They got extra experience, and back then, there wasn't a whole lot of content for players over 120.

[IllegallySane]

I'd say Cygnus back then were a temporary case of Power Creep, then every other class gets buffed up to quell the QQing. Of course now Cygnus are nearly all but forgotten now.