Prism

[Flonne]

http://newsfeed.time.com/2013/06/06/...ining-program/

One day after The Guardian revealed that the U.S. government has been secretly collecting call log data from millions of Verizon customers, The Washington Post reported Thursday that the government’s monitoring of American’s data goes much, much deeper. The FBI and the National Security Agency are mining the servers of the country’s biggest technology companies for the purpose of hunting spies and terrorists. The program, code-named PRISM, is massive in scope and involves web services that many Americans use every day.

To make all this shadowy surveillance easier to digest, here are the relevant data points about the massive data collection:

(MORE: 7 Things to Know About the Government’s Secret Database of Telephone Data)

9

The number of tech companies involved in the PRISM program. Here’s a list, from an NSA slideshow, including the date when monitoring began:

Microsoft (September 2007)
Yahoo (March 2008)
Google (January 2009)
Facebook (June 2009)
PalTalk (December 2009)
YouTube (September 2010)
Skype (February 2011)
AOL (March 2011)
Apple (October 2012)
So far Facebook, Google, Microsoft, Apple, and Yahoo have flatly denied that they provide the government backdoor access to their services, according to a variety of news sources. Twitter, which says it has been particularly vigilant in protecting user data from government agencies, is notably absent from the list. Dropbox is next in line to be added to PRISM, according to the Post.

10

The number of different types of data that are collected through PRISM. E-mails, instant messages, videos, photos, stored data (likely items stored on cloud services like Google Drive), voice chats, file transfers, video conferences, log-in times, and social network profile details have all been monitored by the government. Through PRISM NSA officials can even conduct live surveillance of someone doing a Google search, according to the Post.

(MORE: The NSA Snooping Scoop: Behind the Guardian‘s Risky Plans for Global Expansion)

$20 million

The annual cost of PRISM, according to NSA documents obtained by the Post

2007

The year PRISM was established. The Post describes an “exponential growth” in the program since President Obama took office. The government has snooped on other forms of communication in recent years as well. On Thursday, Senator Dianne Feinstein confirmed that the NSA phone log database has been in place for at least seven years.

1,477

The number of times PRISM data was cited in 2012 as part of President Obama’s daily briefing, a high-level intelligence presentation given to the president, the vice president and select cabinet members. According to the Post, at least 1 in 7 intelligence reports from the NSA make use of PRISM data.

51%

Confidence level intelligence officials are supposed to have of a target’s “foreignness” to make use of PRISM data. The massive database is aimed at surveilling spies and foreign terrorists, not Americans. However, large amounts of American user data is also picked up as officials hunt for threats. The NSA describes this as “incidental.”

Technically not new, and not even unexpected, but still disheartening that proof has finally been given of yet another obscene overreach of power by the government.

[Satellite]

USA is looking more and more like a dictatorship everyday. The real reason this annoys me is that this isn't only about US citizens, it's about everyone using those services. So in a few years Android is sending full info-packets for FBI about what I look at in the internet. And iOS, Windows Phone would also be spying machines of them. If they aren't doing that already, that is...

There's some ignorant people saying "shouldn't bother you if you aren't a criminal". Most of the time it's not criminal activities people don't want to be exposed. There's other sensitive, personal stuff that people want to keep in the dark, e.g but not limited to: personal life and info, relationships, sexual orientation, personal photos, fetishes, sites you've visited etc. etc.

Of course they don't have resources to start looking at what kind of pron someone is into and will only search for something related to criminal activities, but the idea of some dirty FBI agent and his friends looking at your personal information will be there in many persons heads.

[Zelkova]

Is the dystopian future I have been warned about?

[Flonne]

I agree, it's a ton of information and they will never be able to sift through it all even with a keyword system set up, unless they knew to target a person beforehand, but...that's not the point, at all. I could care less that they watch WHAT I do, it's the principle that bothers me. They have no right to do so. This, coupled with the phone company information that was also discovered yesterday...it's just terrible. I wish people would stop accepting more and more pomegranate and calling people that care paranoid.

Is the dystopian future I have been warned about?

Apparently, it's the dystopian present.

[Jamesie]

I don't care because there's nothing about me to be suspicious of.

[Corn]

Wonder if they actually blocked a major terrorist attack a few months ago. If they have...I guess it'd be worth it? I don't know.

[Flonne]

Wonder if they actually blocked a major terrorist attack a few months ago. If they have...I guess it'd be worth it? I don't know.

People die, terrorist attacks happen; people need to learn that life isn't the most important thing a person can give up, not by a long shot.

I don't care because there's nothing about me to be suspicious of.

That's a terrible mindset. It leads to all of society under the elite being human livestock, existing only on the whim of those above us. I'm not OK with that, and I don't know why you are.

[Scaeva]

Honestly, considering they're getting info from people outside the US, I hope the EU, UN and everyone else don't let this go unpunished. It's important to keep your citizens safe, but breaking not just your own, but the laws of everyone else as well, spying on everyone as if they're out to get you should never be allowed. The US has no business with my relationship problems, thank you very much.

[VerrKol]

Considering the background checks I've been through for emplyoment... this isn't personally worrisome. My internet search history would probably being a rather eclectic mess.

In principle, I am of course worried about Big Brother, but in practice... I just don't know. If my personal data can save us from a terrorist attack is that too high a price to pay? Not by a long shot in my book.

The only problem is that there's no real assurance that the data is being used properly. Who watches the watcher?

[Corn]

People die, terrorist attacks happen; people need to learn that life isn't the most important thing a person can give up, not by a long shot.

Dunno, I'm okay with some bored government worker at my porn and Reddit history compared to, well, dying.

I'm of Chinese descent so this doesn't extremely worrisome to my point-of-view. A little, perhaps yes, but as long as they aren't stifling freedom of speech, I think I'm cool with that. I could obviously see why a lot of people have a problem with this, and I'm not going to bother arguing anymore about this.

[Jamesie]

That's a terrible mindset. It leads to all of society under the elite being human livestock, existing only on the whim of those above us. I'm not OK with that, and I don't know why you are.

Except that's how the vast majority of society has survived under as. I honestly (off the top of my head) can't think of a single point in history where those under the elite were not merely tools for the elite. It could possibly only offend me (mind you, a small amount) if it were being used to force the entirety of a population into a very specific mindset, eliminating those who try to dissent.

Why don't I care? I honestly couldn't care less if someone is looking through my history and such. I have a Twitter, I have a Tumblr, I have a Facebook. I'm already a fairly "open' individual (bar my Facebook which is conventionally "closed"). You probably could learn more about me from just looking through my Twitter and Tumblr than you could through my internet history. Want to look through my history? It's a lot of Wikipedia, Tumblr, Twitter, online databases, and some porn interspersed. In this day and age, there is no such thing as privacy. If you so exist in any form on the internet (Reddit, Tumblr, Facebook, 4chan, Twitter, etc.), you have no privacy. Even without a backdoor, people can learn an immense amount about you.

[Words]

ITT: People don't understand how rights work.

[Flonne]

Except that's how the vast majority of society has survived under as. I honestly (off the top of my head) can't think of a single point in history where those under the elite were not merely tools for the elite. It could possibly only offend me (mind you, a small amount) if it were being used to force the entirety of a population into a very specific mindset, eliminating those who try to dissent.

Why don't I care? I honestly couldn't care less if someone is looking through my history and such. I have a Twitter, I have a Tumblr, I have a Facebook. I'm already a fairly "open' individual (bar my Facebook which is conventionally "closed"). You probably could learn more about me from just looking through my Twitter and Tumblr than you could through my internet history. Want to look through my history? It's a lot of Wikipedia, Tumblr, Twitter, online databases, and some porn interspersed. In this day and age, there is no such thing as privacy. If you so exist in any form on the internet (Reddit, Tumblr, Facebook, 4chan, Twitter, etc.), you have no privacy. Even without a backdoor, people can learn an immense amount about you.

Of course everyone already does it, and of course none of this is new to me; I've known about all of this forever, this is just solid proof of it, that's all. Just because "everyone does it" doesn't make it OK. "That's how it's always been" doesn't make it OK, either; we are supposed to be evolving as a species and as a society, it's our job to fix this ourselves, because it won't fix itself, and the ones doing it certainly won't give it up without a fight.

[Jamesie]

Of course everyone already does it, and of course none of this is new to me; I've known about all of this forever, this is just solid proof of it, that's all. Just because "everyone does it" doesn't make it OK. "That's how it's always been" doesn't make it OK, either; we are supposed to be evolving as a species and as a society, it's our job to fix this ourselves, because it won't fix itself, and the ones doing it certainly won't give it up without a fight.

Except history has proven that you cannot make a society equal (even modern social experiments prove that). In addition, history also shows that utopias are impossible. Humans are flawed, therefore society will be flawed.

ITT: People don't understand how rights work.

I don't have an explicit Constitutional right to privacy on the internet, sorry. The only right to privacy I have is one that is created out of, more or less, reading between the lines. And as far as I know, the Supreme Court hasn't upheld that the Constitution protects your "right to privacy" on the internet. Not to mention almost every (if not every) right in the Constitution has been qualified to the extent that you don't have complete freedom of speech (for example) anyways.

[Words]

I don't have an explicit Constitutional right to privacy on the internet, sorry. The only right to privacy I have is one that is created out of, more or less, reading between the lines. And as far as I know, the Supreme Court hasn't upheld that the Constitution protects your "right to privacy" on the internet. Not to mention almost every (if not every) right in the Constitution has been qualified to the extent that you don't have complete freedom of speech (for example) anyways.

Except you're not alone and USA isn't the only country in the world. And you should care because it's your country's government that's stepping all over our rights. At least those countries that signed this:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12
It also pisses me off how hypocrite the whole thing is, "US rights and values being "threatened" by other country? they go into war" but when the US actually pineapples everyone else there's nothing anyone can do.

[Jamesie]

Except you're not alone and USA isn't the only country in the world. And you should care because it's your country's government that's stepping all over our rights. At least those countries that signed this:
http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/index.shtml#a12
It also pisses me off how hypocrite the whole thing is, "US rights and values being "threatened" by other country? they go into war" but when the US actually pineapples everyone else there's nothing anyone can do.

Article Twelve is an unpersuasive argument. Note the word "arbitrary." PRISM has a clearly defined purpose, "hunting spies and terrorists." In addition, correspondence is too vague. Is a Facebook chat message correspondence? Is a Facebook wall post correspondence? Does a tweet constitute correspondence? A post on a forum?

Also using a UN treaty can't be a serious argument since many countries sign treaties and ignore them anyways. Or some countries don't sign them and don't need them (see: Convention on the Rights of the Child, the US did not ratify, the only other countries to have not ratify are Somalia and South Sudan.)

[Corn]

Very good debate on r/changemview

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview...be_allowed_to/

Really boils down to whether you believe in man or not. I think I can say I trust America and its citizens not to allow the corrupt go down further the slippery slope.

It's happened before. America was born in protests and underwent protests against the government. There's undoubtedly a protest right now.

I accept the government monitoring our communications to hunt people that want to murder thousands. But any step further, and I'll join the protests myself.

[KhainiWest]

Except that's how the vast majority of society has survived under as. I honestly (off the top of my head) can't think of a single point in history where those under the elite were not merely tools for the elite. It could possibly only offend me (mind you, a small amount) if it were being used to force the entirety of a population into a very specific mindset, eliminating those who try to dissent.

So sacrifice your individuality for the sole of purpose of knowing you're garbage compared to those above you? What a depressing lifestyle. I'm surprised you didn't drop out of school as education would be a wasted tool on an insect right?

Why don't I care? I honestly couldn't care less if someone is looking through my history and such. I have a Twitter, I have a Tumblr, I have a Facebook. I'm already a fairly "open' individual (bar my Facebook which is conventionally "closed"). You probably could learn more about me from just looking through my Twitter and Tumblr than you could through my internet history. Want to look through my history? It's a lot of Wikipedia, Tumblr, Twitter, online databases, and some porn interspersed. In this day and age, there is no such thing as privacy. If you so exist in any form on the internet (Reddit, Tumblr, Facebook, 4chan, Twitter, etc.), you have no privacy. Even without a backdoor, people can learn an immense amount about you.

It's not simply to your internet history. Pictures, videos, places you visit, your entire life could be entirely mapped out. You aren't old enough to actually appreciate privacy, but when I'm able to pull up your address, see the appraisal of your house, your debt, spending habits, and haven't dated in a decade, those are things people can use against you. In fact employers could be even more prejudice knowing those facts, and all your mistakes.

Except history has proven that you cannot make a society equal (even modern social experiments prove that). In addition, history also shows that utopias are impossible. Humans are flawed, therefore society will be flawed.

You learn from history, you learn to fix those mistakes, not give up on the task because they have already been made.

I don't have an explicit Constitutional right to privacy on the internet, sorry. The only right to privacy I have is one that is created out of, more or less, reading between the lines. And as far as I know, the Supreme Court hasn't upheld that the Constitution protects your "right to privacy" on the internet. Not to mention almost every (if not every) right in the Constitution has been qualified to the extent that you don't have complete freedom of speech (for example) anyways.

You're absolutely right. Do you know why? Because what you're referring to is actually in the Bill of rights. Oh did you forget that document considering your posts just scream dependency.

[Jamesie]

So sacrifice your individuality for the sole of purpose of knowing you're garbage compared to those above you? What a depressing lifestyle. I'm surprised you didn't drop out of school as education would be a wasted tool on an insect right?

An education is designed for an individual to have the opportunity to advance themselves. If you major in basket-weaving, that's your problem (and in your words, an education wasted). In addition, you assume that I have a problem with being below an elite. I don't. It's how society is. I honestly don't care.

It's not simply to your internet history. Pictures, videos, places you visit, your entire life could be entirely mapped out. You aren't old enough to actually appreciate privacy, but when I'm able to pull up your address, see the appraisal of your house, your debt, spending habits, and haven't dated in a decade, those are things people can use against you. In fact employers could be even more prejudice knowing those facts, and all your mistakes.

Your argument here is predicated on the fact that privacy comes with age. Some people are more comfortable with their lives being in the open (Kardashians, socialites), some people are more comfortable living in privacy (you?). You also assume that this information would be public. Additionally, you can do the vast majority of that without Prism anyways. It'd just take more time. If I wanted privacy, I wouldn't have a Facebook, Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, a Vine. I probably wouldn't have an iPhone since that would be a wasted investment.

There is no such thing as true privacy on the Internet.

You learn from history, you learn to fix those mistakes, not give up on the task because they have already been made.

Except it is not possible for an egalitarian society to exist. It is not a "maybe we'll work on it more," it's a "can't happen."

You're absolutely right. Do you know why? Because what you're referring to is actually in the Bill of rights. Oh did you forget that document considering your posts just scream dependency.

The Bill of Rights is a part of the Constitution. In addition, there is no explicit right to privacy. Justice Douglas argued that there was a sort of right to privacy that existed as an extension of numerous amendments (he cited specific ones), in the "penumbras" of the amendments. In addition, that case was decided in the 60s, before any notion of the internet was even thought of anyways.

[Corn]

On the bright side, Democrats and Republicans are on the same side for once!