Nexon Petition for a transparent review & appeal system

Re-Posting here for anyone who hasn't seen it yet;

http://www.change.org/petitions/nexo...-appeal-system

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Originally Posted by Petition

People invest time, money and effort into a game and it's completely inappropriate and unprofessional in this day and age for a company to block an account without any explanation and no appeal, simply replying that they have proof that they won't release for privacy reasons even to the very person who's been impacted by their sanctions.

Customers have a right to know the specifics of what they're accused of and the evidence against them in order to make a competent appeal. For an American division of a company to fail to recognize Presumption of innocence as a fundamental human right is shameful.

Providing evidence should reduce the number of duplicate customer contacts, give a better customer experience and provide a level of transparency more on par with with the policies of other modern game production companies.

A simple change of the Terms of Service stating that in the event of account suspension the company and it's representatives reserve the right to make public any and all evidence they deem appropriate to justify the actions they took would be sufficient and is more than fair.

Video evidence could be uploaded to a dedicated YouTube channel where their viewership is monetized instead of stored internally at cost to the company with very little change to existing procedures. More personal and private information can be provided to the customer directly during appeals through the ticketing system.

No one should be tried and executed anonymously and/or without evidence or specifics of their crime and this is what the current policies amount to. It may just be video game characters that are getting executed but those characters can be representative of years of investment by their owner and should not be ripped away with callous disregard for the actual human element. That's un-American, that's uncivilized and that's unnecessary, so let's work towards something better.

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While I personally haven't been affected by this, I know it's a big problem for those who have. And in the event that I ever get wrongfully banned, I'd like this change to be in place. Spending 6+ years and a scary amount of money on this game just to lose it all because of a crap customer service would be horrible.

I signed it, but who knows if this will actually bring about change

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Originally Posted by CrazyForDex

but who knows if this will actually bring about change

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What they do is ultimately out of our control at all times; all we can do is express as a community what we feel would be the most customer serving thing for them to do and hope they acknowledge it in some way. The only guarantee we have is that if we say and do nothing they will continue on unchanged.

Signed it, but a 200 signature limit/requirement is a bit low. You'll meet that goal before lunch.

"The worst fight is the one you didn't fight"
Signed in

Signed it.

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Originally Posted by Zelkova

Signed it, but a 200 signature limit/requirement is a bit low. You'll meet that goal before lunch.

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You don't set the goals, Change.org progressively ups them as you meet each milestone. You can see the "Reached 25 signature" and "Reached 100 signature" milestones at the bottom.

"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take."

Even though it might not have an effect, it's always good to try anyways.
Signed.

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Originally Posted by Eos

You don't set the goals, Change.org progressively ups them as you meet each milestone. You can see the "Reached 25 signature" and "Reached 100 signature" milestones at the bottom.

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Ah, didn't know that. Pretty nifty system then!

Would be great if they notice this, or actually take action. Only problem I can see with it is the amount of work required to upload tens of thousands of videos and the possible loss in amount of bans simply because each ban becomes more arduous. So it would all come down to quantity vs. quality.

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Originally Posted by Satellite

Would be great if they notice this, or actually take action. Only problem I can see with it is the amount of work required to upload tens of thousands of videos and the possible loss in amount of bans simply because each ban becomes more arduous. So it would all come down to quantity vs. quality.

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It doesn't need to be arduous if they train their GMs to watch for actual hacking and do a lot more patrols at common hacking spots.

"Make public" is where I got hung up. Good cause, but I'm not supportive of the prospect of everyone being in my business if it involves a ban, especially with the sensitivity the community can have sometimes. I already have a Battle Mage thats accused of being a hacker for, get this, simply being a Battle Mage! I don't have anything to hide, I simply don't want to share that information with the world. Not everyone is mature. (And even if they were, I wouldn't care; Its not really their issue unless I choose to make it so)

Otherwise I agree. I'd much rather have them send me the evidence privately, however.

Signed. I've had a few friends get wrongfully perma'd, and though some of them have been unbanned, others haven't. I really do hope that Nexon goes through with this after you get enough signatures for them to notice, otherwise it's just like they're saying it as a scare tactic for those who were rightfully perma'd.

I signed it and I agree with it completely. But it just doesn't seem like Nexon's directors care. The game is in shambles. Exploit after exploit is released, hack after hack is released, glitch after glitch is uncovered. If the game wasn't so easy to be manipulated, the cases of false bans wouldn't be so prominent. They got more pressing issues to worry about before worrying about being transparent at this point. :pineapple:

Signed it. No matter the outcome it is always good to show Nexon what the userbase feels like.

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Originally Posted by Declaimed

"Make public" is where I got hung up. Good cause, but I'm not supportive of the prospect of everyone being in my business if it involves a ban,

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One way or another they'll be in your business anyway, especially if you get removed from rankings for something even though they later unban you for it. This way at least they'd be able to see why and judge for themselves if it was appropriate or not, rather than just assuming that if Nexon removed you from the rankings you must've hacked. The only time it'd negatively impact you is if it did in fact prove you were hacking, and I don't know anybody who'd shed a tear for you over that being made public knowledge.

http://i.imgur.com/eCkk5.gif

I signed. This injustice must be stopped!

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Originally Posted by Satellite

Would be great if they notice this, or actually take action. Only problem I can see with it is the amount of work required to upload tens of thousands of videos and the possible loss in amount of bans simply because each ban becomes more arduous. So it would all come down to quantity vs. quality.

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I'm pretty sure the "public" you're thinking of and the "public" the petition means are two different things.

You're thinking along the lines of anyone can see it.

I believe it actually means that it's not behind closed doors, and they actually will reveal what they mean when you inquire.

Right now, if you file a claim, they just say "We have proof. You're not going to see it, but it exists." How do we know they're not lying? How do we know they're not just completely making pomegranate up to cover their asses? We don't. By making it public, it means to change that message from before to, "We have proof. Look, right here. *Point to link*" It's not private, it's not closed off, you can see what they are accusing you of. That's how it's public.

You can easily upload Youtube videos that are Private, then send the link to users who make claims.

Signed.

The problem with a petition however is that it's being heard on deaf ears. I believe that Nexon wouldn't bring about this change as it would just create more work for them to do. We all know that they aren't exactly industry leaders in caring about their customer base, so why should they start now. The only way I can see change happening is if we boycott the game or even just spending real money into the game, and make it known that we are doing so. This would be much more effective as large multinational corporations like Nexon care more about monetary income, and if we create a large enough dent, they will have to listen.

Just my two cents.

Signed

One concern I have is the following:

How Nexon bans currently seems to usually not be using video evidence, but rather with some kinds of logs. If they release those logs to the culprit or to the general public, it could give away clues as to how to avoid being banned in the future while cheating. It would depend on what is exactly contained in the logs though so I'm not sure.

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Originally Posted by IImaplers

One concern I have is the following:

How Nexon bans currently seems to usually not be using video evidence, but rather with some kinds of logs. If they release those logs to the culprit or to the general public, it could give away clues as to how to avoid being banned in the future while cheating. It would depend on what is exactly contained in the logs though so I'm not sure.

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Do you really think those logs possibly contain anything a hacker doesn't already know or couldn't guess?
The absolute best case scenario here is Nexon is logging every single packet sent and can repeat them back to you verbatim. What part of them being able to do that would be a surprise or concern for anyone?

The only thing that could be influenced by that being public knowledge is that they stop doing the things they know are logged.
Who loses there? Certainly not us.
At worse, they go off and try to find new things, which is already happening anyway and Nexon has to evolve their security measures, which they should already be doing.

Signed already, I don't expect change but god I hope it works.

This has personally affected me, and I would be ecstatic to see this happen, though I am not sure how feasible it is for it to work retroactively. Nevertheless, I signed the petition.

Signed from when it was on twitter.

Added my chicken scratches to the great wall.

Interesting side note; No change.org petitition to Nexon has gotten more than 100 votes.

Not signing. Not just because the appeal process will never apply to me, but because even if transparency were offered, ignorance, stubbornness, and a corporate agenda will still exist. Which is something that will not change without massive management overhauls and an improved training program for all employees that will never happen.

I signed the petition; while I haven't been false banned from the system before (I have been false banned by Paypal once though. :f7:), it's important for everyone to be able to access this information in the case of false bans. With the proof provided it would also speed up the ticket system and one couldn't argue against it if the evidence was there; more hackers would stay banned too.

If the proof wasn't provided and it was a false ban and they refuse to lift the ban; they'd just be basically giving you the finger and you'd be out of luck.

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Originally Posted by Takebacker

Not signing. Not just because the appeal process will never apply to me, but because even if transparency were offered, ignorance, stubbornness, and a corporate agenda will still exist. Which is something that will not change without massive management overhauls and an improved training program for all employees that will never happen.

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Did you really just reply with "I refuse to support the fixing of one issue I believe needs fixed because it wouldn't fix every other issue in the universe single handedly"?

Good logic there.

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Originally Posted by Eos

Did you really just reply with "I refuse to support the fixing of one issue I believe needs fixed because it wouldn't fix every other issue in the universe single handedly"?

Good logic there.

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It's more like "I refuse to support the fixing of one issue people believe needs fixing because i believe that other issues that will never be resolved inherently break the fix."

Signed as #201!

I'm not sure that revealing the logs when I was autobanned would have helped, but greater transparency can only be a good thing.

I think it would be amazing if they revealed the videos (if they have them) as that would provide instantly understandable and contestable evidence.

There's nothing worse than not knowing why you were banned after years invested in the game...

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Originally Posted by Takebacker

It's more like "I refuse to support the fixing of one issue people believe needs fixing because i believe that other issues that will never be resolved inherently break the fix."

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Suffice it say I find that excuse absurd. It's the same sort of ridiculous crap that people utter as an excuse for being part of a problem rather than trying to work towards a solution. As long as you can keep blaming other people's failings and insisting you can't do anything about it you will achieve exactly that; Nothing. Self fulfilling prophecy.

I still get messages on basil from people asking how I got my billing block lifted because they were in that same position of hopelessness and ambiguity.

For me, MTSnowy, and all the others who get billing blocked with no given reason other than "actions that break the Terms of Service", I hope this petition will make an impact.

Signed.

Signed.

Maybe when they take a break from their money counting they will see this.

Signed.

I hope for change, but even if it does not come it is still worth a shot! uvu
Signed.

Signed, For Justice.

Well I finally got around to signing it. We really need a lot more though like hundreds of thousands before this makes it anywhere but a quick scan and the garbage bin.
I ended up writing a small speech talking about my own experience and how many other people have lost their account for what very much seems like no reason.
I doubt anything will come of this though, they are a foreign based company and the one in California is more for decoration than anything.

Don't get any hopes people.

Add one more to the pile. Numbers speak louder than words. I hope others link to it in their blogs.

This is so weird. My accounts were banned about 2 years ago. I emailed Nexon just yesterday asking if they could possibly unban my account or to show me proof of me allegedly using third party programs. Their reply was just a simple and firm NO. I don't visit SP often, but I'm glad I saw this.

I'd sign it if Google Chrome would let me. Maybe I'll try later on a different browser. Hopefully Nexon notices this. :x

I signed it. Would hate to get banned after putting so much money and effort on MS.
I wonder, though, do petitions like this usually work and read by the decision makers of Nexon? Hope it will be considered and read, at the least.

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Originally Posted by Miracre

I'd sign it if Google Chrome would let me. Maybe I'll try later on a different browser. Hopefully Nexon notices this. :x

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That's odd, Chrome let me do it just fine.

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Originally Posted by petition

A simple change of the Terms of Service stating that in the event of account suspension the company and it's representatives reserve the right to make public any and all evidence they deem appropriate to justify the actions they took would be sufficient and is more than fair.

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I'm not sure I understand this. The company "reserves the right" to make the evidence public? Doesn't that mean they can choose whether to do so or not? Just as they do today?
Where's the bit that says they must release the evidence to the owner of the banned account, on request?

Also, "its representative", not "it's representative".

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

I'm not sure I understand this. The company "reserves the right" to make the evidence public? Doesn't that mean they can choose whether to do so or not? Just as they do today?
Where's the bit that says they must release the evidence to the owner of the banned account, on request?

Also, "its representative", not "it's representative".

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The term change suggested is a way of letting their consumers know that Nexon DOES reserve the right to publish evidence materials. The contrary would be NOT reserving it, which in turn would make it questionable if Nexon has the right to publish it (as it is now). Therefore this term isn't necessary unless someone decides to sue Nexon for publishing evidence of hacking. But even then it would <likely> (cba to make a "paper" on it) be superfluous in the contract.

OT: I really love the initiative! Signing it after this. The only thing I want to nitpick about is the phrase where you claim the current process is "un-American". That's a completely ridiculous remark which only serves as a nationalistic emotional argument. The worst thing is, it's completely USA-an to conceal evidence and transparency is typically un-"American" (actually, not ideologically). One of the reasons I can accept the way Nexon handles their bans is because they are situated in the US.

On the other hand, what do I know. I didn't study US administrative law.

Like metaqueen, I didn't study US admin law myself either.
I'm going to go ahead sign this one even though I have retired from this game nearly 5 years ago. I do want to point out that this is not the first time someone tried to put a petition up for something like this. My mind keeps telling me that there will be a low percentage of this actually getting the players what they want from the company; but, who knows? Also, for all the veteran players like myself, I want people to realize that Nexon has been known to be a company that practices business a bit differently than your average company; I'm 100% sure they do this so they can save their ass.

Good luck to you guys. You will definitely need it.

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

The company "reserves the right" to make the evidence public? Doesn't that mean they can choose whether to do so or not? Just as they do today?

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It's different because today they claim they don't have the right whatsoever, due to privacy concerns. This is giving them the claim to that right. You generally don't make a terms of service provision obligate you to anything, you only extend exercisable rights that you may or may not opt to do, even if you intend to do them 100% of the time. Otherwise you have to change your ToS every time you want to change your operating practices.

Yes, yes, yes! Signed.

And it isn't just "un-American" anyway. Applies to any other nationality/culture out there.

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Originally Posted by G-Meister

And it isn't just "un-American" anyway. Applies to any other nationality/culture out there.

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You missed the point that it's a Nexon America policy, hence the "Un" American reference.

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Originally Posted by Eos

You missed the point that it's a Nexon America policy, hence the "Un" American reference.

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Man... They should have this for all the other versions as well.

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Originally Posted by G-Meister

Man... They should have this for all the other versions as well.

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Probably, but we, being a GMS community, don't support those versions; they'll have to fight their own battle on that grounds as the ones more well equipped to do so.

Signed. Nexon need's to up their Business practices in general. If you could call them that...

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Originally Posted by Eos

Probably, but we, being a GMS community, don't support those versions; they'll have to fight their own battle on that grounds as the ones more well equipped to do so.

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Like George Washington's Isolationism and Neutrality idea :P hehe...I signed it immedietly because I have been false banned before...I was afk (in El Nath I think) for awhile and when I came back I was perma'd :( totally doesn't make sense.

They definitely need concrete evidence before they even start to ban someone. I was permanently banned for the third time falsely, when I was offline. Took me 13 tickets and 3 months to get unbanned. I just logged on maple to return my friend his 2b+ meso cape which he gave me to sell for him, which had been stucked in my account for so long. They won't be having me back as an nx-buying customer. My bridge with Nexon is completely burnt and I am definitely not coming back. Awesome banning system they have there.

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Originally Posted by G-Meister

Man... They should have this for all the other versions as well.

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Actually my understanding is that other versions aren't nearly as bad. I know that at least Nexon JP isn't.

Makes me wonder why Nexon NA is so bad.

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Originally Posted by Polantaris

Actually my understanding is that other versions aren't nearly as bad. I know that at least Nexon JP isn't.

Makes me wonder why Nexon NA is so bad.

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This is true. There's a lot of complaints about Asiasoft naturally but most of us have smoothly running clients and you don't hear of issues like these auto-bannings, though naturally if this happened at MapleSEA we can say good-bye to the game at once. :|

I'm on board with this. They've done many things wrong for many years. They should start doing them the right way now.

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Originally Posted by Polantaris

Actually my understanding is that other versions aren't nearly as bad. I know that at least Nexon JP isn't.

Makes me wonder why Nexon NA is so bad.

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*Points to MapleSEA*

Nexon NA will look awesome when you bring that pathetic cesspit into view. :f3: