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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
So stupid question, and I'm not sure if I asked this already so apologies in advance. I noticed there's a table for Dual Blades and no CD Final Cut, which I'm taking as Final Cut can be kept up indefinitely as long as you don't die. How do you get that continuous duration? Can you achieve it without having to have more than one Mechanic card in total for your character deck?
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IllegallySane
So stupid question, and I'm not sure if I asked this already so apologies in advance. I noticed there's a table for Dual Blades and no CD Final Cut, which I'm taking as Final Cut can be kept up indefinitely as long as you don't die. How do you get that continuous duration? Can you achieve it without having to have more than one Mechanic card in total for your character deck?
No, you cannot. You need ~50% buff duration (S Rank Mercedes card helps too) for 100% uptime on FC.
Also you can no longer have more than one type of the same class in your character card deck, so no more Mech-card stacking.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
IllegallySane
So stupid question, and I'm not sure if I asked this already so apologies in advance. I noticed there's a table for Dual Blades and no CD Final Cut, which I'm taking as Final Cut can be kept up indefinitely as long as you don't die. How do you get that continuous duration? Can you achieve it without having to have more than one Mechanic card in total for your character deck?
15% on Mechanic card, 32% on Unique IA and 5%+ from level 50+ Empathy, hardest part is the IA line since if you rank up to unique there's a pretty high chance it'll just rank back down to rare the next circulator... the IA changes in KMS are pretty nice though, but they're a long way away.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Phantom glitch?
Not sure if its just a visual error, but Crit card from judgement draw doesnt seem to do anything to my crit rate, 55% w/o it, 55% with it (at least thats what it said)
anyone else have this problem?
on a side note, cross over chains is incredible, aside from the fact that I have crap avoid and get hit so often :/
Im sure thats gotta derease my dps by a lot D:
usually trying to count on life drain draw card but have the worst luck at drawing it
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
If you're in a place such as Evolving World or in a really mobby/high HP place such as MP3 or Stronghold, is Cross Over Chains actually better for EXP/hour than Holy Symbol, or would this truth only apply if you have few EXP boosters?
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Twilight is used as a debuff 2s before it runs out regardless of what combo you're doing.
RED:
Phantom:KMST 1.2.495:
Phantom:
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Returns:
Xenon:
KMST 1.2.495:
Xenon:
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Whenever you get a chance would you be able to add a Blade Master table without Asura? Curious to see how much the %/s drop without Asura included, and how the hits/s are affected.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mazz
Whenever you get a chance would you be able to add a Blade Master table without Asura? Curious to see how much the %/s drop without Asura included, and how the hits/s are affected.
Wouldn't that be the non-hyper tables? :f6:
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
holycow
Wouldn't that be the non-hyper tables? :f6:
Hyper tables also include Blade Clone, +1 attack on Phantom Blow, etc, so not really. It'd be similar though I imagine.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
With Asura:
Blade Master:
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Without Asura:
Blade Master:
pineapple my life. Asura didn't have Mirror Image on it. That's a mistake right? I've made a horrible mistake right? Anyways, the difference appears to be small for some reason. It's most noticeable on high defense, since Asura has defense ignore on it.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Interesting :f6: thought it'd be more noticeable, so the biggest (and only real) difference is the drop in %/s on higher defence mobs, since Asura ignores 100%, but even then it doesn't change that much.
Thanks again!
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mazz
Interesting :f6: thought it'd be more noticeable, so the biggest (and only real) difference is the drop in %/s on higher defence mobs, since Asura ignores 100%, but even then it doesn't change that much.
Thanks again!
I had to scribble some updates and fix a bug so check the tables again, but yes, Asura doesn't actually seem to be that big of a bonus.
Checking the No CD Final Cut table would be best, since the normal table doesn't optimize Final Cut to sync with Asura. It's a lot more noticeable there that it's a benefit.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
@JoeTang, how do the UA summons affect DPS? I'm sure the effect is minimal, but I was curious as to how much additional DPS you'd get as a UA vs being a regular Adventurer.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
@JoeTang Do you think you can post a ranking of all jobs in terms of hits/s? People's funding nowadays are getting greater and for example in GMS, funded NLs seem to be outdamaging almost all other jobs.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
HerDevilish
@JoeTang Do you think you can post a ranking of all jobs in terms of hits/s? People's funding nowadays are getting greater and for example in GMS, funded NLs seem to be outdamaging almost all other jobs.
No.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Thought I'd make a small update to try to keep myself to a vague schedule. Have the general skeleton for Night Walker done, but I've decided to make one and give it a shot to figure out the details on Mark of Darkness and Shadow Bats. From what I see in videos, the activation rate and appearance of bats is pretty significant, which is a bit different from what the stat says. Might be counting actual hits to activate, Shadow Servant's hits, or something else is happening. It's not too clear anywhere whether Mark of Darkness's stack durations are independent of each other. It's possible since it's on the target, but most stack buffs on yourself refresh all their durations when it happens. Would make it a bit more complicated if I wanted exact values, but it could also be estimated to be at full stacks all the time if you're only attacking anyways.
Anyways, I only tested the output with the first KMST patch, and the numbers are pretty abysmal, but I believe they got buffed quite a bit afterwards, and there's a bit more I need to work out.
I won't be able to give it a try for 24+ hours since I have to wait for a character to delete (ty nexons), but unlike Blaze Wizard, I probably only need to get to 2nd or 3rd job and not 4th to see it all really. Might be able to expect this next week. And yes, I know this is 3 months late. After that, I'll probably just push out the latest KMS rebalances the same night.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Some information about Night Walkers that I've collected, mostly about Shadow Bats:
Every 3 attacks, you will summon one Shadow Bat, until you reach your limit (2 in 1st job, etc).
Every attack, there is a chance one Shadow Bat will fly out and attack an enemy.
This enemy can be the same target, but if it dies, it will search for a different target.
If the Shadow Bat is in midflight, and the target dies, the Shadow Bat will disappear. (Like Soul Seeker, Shield Chasing, etc.)
The Shadow Bat can bounce across targets, up to a limit (3 in 1st job).
If there is only one target, the Shadow Bats cannot bounce.
If there is more than one target, the Shadow Bats will bounce until they have hit their maximum limit.
If there are only two targets, the Shadow Bats will bounce between them until they have hit their maximum limit.
Triple Throw, Quadruple Throw, Quintuple Throw, and Stardust have a delayed hit component to their attack. For Shadow Bat summoning and attacking, these are considered two separate attacks.
i.e. every 3 Triple Throw, 2 Shadow Bats are summoned because it is 6 attacks. Every Triple Throw, up to two Shadow Bats may be sent to attack, because there are two attacks.
Each Shadow Servant's attacks count towards Shadow Bat summoning and attacking. I assume that Shadow Illusion's extra Servants also add to this, meaning with it active, each Quintuple Throw is considered 8 attacks.
Stardust hitting multiple monsters is only considered one attack. Only one Shadow Bat can be summoned or attack for each of its attack components.
Stardust's explosion costs 1 Star if it hits a monster, and 1 more Star for each additional monster hit. I don't know why, and it's not important with Spirit Throwing, but it's still not cool.
The duration for Mark of Darkness's stacks are reset each time it is reactivated on a monster. This is the only way it could possibly stack to +5.
Mark of Darkness doubles the activation rate for Shadow Bat's attack.
The following is speculation:
For each stack of Mark of Darkness, one additional Shadow Bat is sent to attack when it activates, up to however many Shadow Bats you have.
i.e. Lucky Sevens may send 2 Shadow Bats if you have 1 Mark of Darkness stack active, and it may send 5 Shadow Bats if you have 5 Mark of Darkness stacks active despite being one attack, if you have 5 Shadow Bats at once.
If Mark of Darkness is active, one additional Shadow Bat is summoned when the attack count is reached.
Alternatively, one additional Shadow Bat is summoned for each stack of Mark of Darkness when the attack count is reached.
These two points are extremely difficult for me to confirm, but it appears to be what is happening and explains how it is possible to send out so many Shadow Bats at any given time.
The first point, additional Shadow Bats (per stack?), is mentioned in Shadow Bat's description. It is fairly easy to see 2 Shadow Bats attack a single target with Mark of Darkness, if it is activated when using Lucky Sevens which normally can only send one out. I believe I have also seen an instance of all four of my Shadow Bats attacking at once when testing with Lucky Sevens.
I have also noted gaining two Shadow Bats on a target with Mark of Darkness, though this is difficult to replicate accurately. It may be possible for me to check at Easy Zakum if I strip off enough weapon attack, but the position of the damage numbers and Mark of Darkness makes it a bit difficult to read. This may require me to simply level high enough to find monsters that I can hit, but not kill immediately. It's also difficult because in the process of trying to get Shadow Bats, they simply just fly out and hit things. It's easiest to get them when you OHKO, since they won't try to attack if everything is dead, but it's also meaningless because dead things can't have Mark of Darkness.
The extra Shadow Bats gained would explain how it is possible to actually send out so many Shadow Bats to begin with, since with the Mark of Darkness function as it is, any Shadow Bats summoned every 3 attacks would be sent out nearly immediately. Sending out more bats can't possibly just be a functionality for Darkness Omen and Dominion, can it? Because summoning Shadow Bats is basically 33%, whereas sending them to attack is 45% (90% with Mark of Darkness), meaning you should never have many Shadow Bats, let alone 5, unless you were to use Darkness Omen or Dominion to summon them/keep them from dying.
I may just need to record a video and count how many bats are being sent out to compare with what theory would dictate. Otherwise, if anyone knows a Night Walker on KMS who has Dominion (level 170), if they could activate it with no bats, throw 3 Lucky Sevens to see how many Bats come out, and then throw it again to see how many bats attack, that would probably explain everything.
Otherwise, my experience with the class has been more interesting than Blaze Wizards. I feel my training has been rather limited to areas in my level range so far, i.e. every time my Shadow Bats activate, I OHKO 6 monsters, which is cool, but I think traditional mobbing is much more efficient. Stardust is extremely weak, and slow. Only useful if you OHKO. I believe latency causes my Shadow Servant to overkill my target, otherwise, I think it's possible to OHKO 4 monsters with Quadruple Throw. Tried some +20 level areas today, and the Shadow Bats are much less effective, especially since I miss so often. It is interesting to be able to spam Quadruple Throw and still clear a map because of the bats, despite their missing though. There are probably some really strong maps for this playstyle, and it lends itself extremely well to multipart bosses like Zakum and Horntail, which it should be able to hit many of the parts with just the bats alone, and simply a high hits/s makes it very powerful at the highest levels.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
very detailed analysis of shadow bats' mechanics. do bats proc damage reflect separately from stars? (try testing on lilynooch, TOT, RoR 5. it always cast DR @ 50%. consider using other mobs after DR is cast, so only the bats will hit lily.
NW look like they completely outclass/out damage NL, yet there are not many boss videos.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Another great thing to test would be jump attacking and how it affects Quintuple Throw's delay. Jump attacking lets NW attack 40% faster according to this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhvc2Z1ymT8
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xlxlxlxl
It took me a few tries to get this to work properly for me. It might be latency, or a property of Quintuple Throw's delay or animation in particular, but performing it is stupidly tedious. The attack performed in midair appears to need you to push the Jump button at the same time, i.e. pretend you're performing a perfect Jump Attack again in midair. Simply using the regular button didn't do anything at all for me. The first attack doesn't need to be a perfect Jump Attack, but it should improve the attack speed if you're attacking on the jump frame rather than after.
I'm getting about 390ms per attack, which is even faster than that person's 450ms though, but if you time it wrong, you end up Flash Jumping forward. The final throw only lasts for a single frame at 60fps, and the first throwing animation for the next set appears immediately after. The basic jump speed with Haste is about 690ms, but due to landing while performing the first portion of Quadruple Throw or Quintuple Throw's animation, you can't jump until it starts the second throwing animation, which cancels its delay. This leads to about 780ms per jump, where you attack twice per jump. This is also performable with Lucky Sevens, which doesn't actually stop your jump speed, meaning you will be able to attack at basically 300ms in 1st job if you time it correctly, and don't actually need Booster unless you're doing something where you need to stand still. In this particular case, you won't want Haste either because it makes your jumps take longer, unless you specifically want to hit higher up.
It might also be possible to do this with Stardust, but I seem to always Flash Jump when I try a second throw in the air. Its stupidly long delay can be canceled by jump attacking though, so with no Haste, you can go at 570~600ms. I tried with the spot in Magatia by the banker where you hit a ceiling, and I could reach 540ms, and using Quadruple Thow, I could reach 480ms.
In theory, I believe what is happening is:
Quintuple Throw (I) Delay = 450ms + Booster = 360ms
Quintuple Throw (II) Delay = 360ms + Cancel = 30ms
360 + 30 + 360 + 30 = 780ms
Haste Jump = 690ms.
90ms is approximately spent landed.
Regular Jump ~= 570ms
210ms is approximately spent landed.
Haste isn't required, but it makes it significantly easier, and there is no deficit because you cannot jump again until the second attack's second throw is completed. The only difference is with a single attack, where you can jump again when you land to cancel the delay of the second throw. In this case, Haste-less is faster since you land faster.
I did a few more tests to see how Mark of Darkness and Shadow Bats work together. You should always generate an extra bat every 3 attacks. I believe if you're full on bats, nothing will happen and you have to wait another 3 attacks. Kind of hard to get 4 hits in with 4 bats active without spending one. My best guess with the extra bats I'm seeing is while Mark of Darkness is active, there is a chance to summon a Shadow Bat equal to its attacking chance, or something similar. I got approximately a 37% chance with my test after factoring out the guaranteed bats from every 3 attacks, which is close to my 40% attack rate. This seems to fit well, and if I get to 4th job, I'll have 45% attack chance and I can retest there at something stronger so I can have a large enough sample size to validate it, as well as use Darkness Omen to mess around with bat count. It's extremely difficult for me to count each individual Lucky Seven, and connecting it with each bat summoned or sent to attack, and I really don't like how complicated this is. It really should just be more clear in the description, because it mentions nothing about summoning more bats, just sending ones you already have to attack.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Given what JoeTang has described, this is not a class that I can play comfortably. Because latency issues will never leave me.
Hadriel
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
I'm actually very excited for this class. Was bummed out to see that NW's were closed since since v141. Was going to pre-make one in the meantime.
I've always liked Night Lords but this definitely adds a more refreshing twist to it.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
hadriel
Given what JoeTang has described, this is not a class that I can play comfortably. Because latency issues will never leave me.
Hadriel
I tried it a lot more, and perfect timing is probably more important than latency for the jump double Quintuple Throws. The trajectory of the stars might be affected by latency, but it's not too significant in my opinion as long as they all get out to begin with. The biggest issue with this might be being able to hit a platform above you when using the double QT. The other video had his stars going much higher than mine, though I haven't found a map where it matters so far. Most multiplatform maps suck.
I think latency has only really affected my use of Rapid Evasion. The delay after using it is enourmous, despite saying it's 570ms, so I'm not sure if it's actually supposed to be that long, or it's something that I'm lagging through. I'll see if any 4th job skills lag tomorrow. Blaze Wizards are completely gimped if you lag though. Orbital Flame comes out delayed and it's just really pomegranatety that way.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
This pissed me the pineapple off trying to test Mark of Darkness because of how pineappleing short its duration is (5 SECONDS) and how pineappleing rarely it activates (30%). I had to use Lucky Sevens to activate it so I didn't murder the pomegranate out of the monsters I was trying on. Then walk to another group of monsters, cast Darkness Omen, and come back hopefully in time to throw a single Lucky Seven to see how many bats fly out if it hit its 82% Activation Rate. So after trying that for an obscene amount of time, I decided to just go die at Normal Zakum and get some results.
Anyways, I've confirmed that for each Mark of Darkness stack, one extra bat from your cloud is sent to attack if it activates. Still not 100% confirmed on the generation mechanics, but unlikely to ever be 100% confirmed on something probability based. I'll probably configure the tables to use the rate I assumed earlier, and try to double check later if I actually level this character any further. I don't believe Stardust hitting multiple monsters is affected by this either. Otherwise, there would be a significantly huge difference in bat output and mobbing ability.
@kayeyearekay I've also seen that Shadow Bats just do 1 damage to damage reflect and don't activate it, though this was against Elite monsters since I can't reliably find anything that DRs at my level. Not sure if they function any differently.
Shadow Bats also do not aggro monsters after hitting them, just like every other similar missile skill.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.501:
Night Walker:
First iteration of Night Walkers. It's an assumption that jump double Quintuple Throw is possible. Not sure if it was back then, but the attack speed of the first throw was a bit slower, meaning the double throw action is slower, and fewer bats come out as a result.. I think one of the most defining difference in damage is Shadow Bat damage used to be 390%, whereas it is 590% on Live, and the summon/attack rate is 40% instead of 45%.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.502:
Night Walker:
Take 2.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.215:
Night Walker:
First Live Patch.
>bats hit up to 8 times
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.218:
Night Walker:
Current live patch.
Uses Quintuple Throw and Stardust as options. Darkness Omen is used whenever it is available. It doesn't crit or send out bats, but it summons them if it hits enough targets. There is a "Standing" option where the full delay of attacks is used. Jumping for Quintuple Throw uses a double Quintuple Throw action. For Stardust, a single throw is used. Shadow Stitch isn't included since it's a keydown bind. Shadow Bats are summoned every 3 attacks. Quintuple Throw is 2 attacks. Each Shadow Servant performs attacks towards this count. Shadow Bats are also summoned at a rate of 45% on monsters with Mark of Darkness (i.e. always). They attack at a rate of 45%. For each Mark of Darkness stack an additional bat is sent if they exist. Bats bounce between two targets, which is why 2+ is so similar and ridiculously high. Basically, if there's 2 monsters, you get the full 6 hits of Shadow Bats as opposed to 1. Table is only set to 9 because even though Darkness Omen can hit up to 15 with its Hyper, the change is minor due to the 10s cooldown.
Hypers used are Quintuple Throw - Reinforce, Boss Killer, Critical Rate, Darkness Omen - Cooldown Reduction, Reinforce, technically extra target for the 7+ but negligible as you can see. Not sure if I would recommend it.
Just noticed Stardust is pretty trash. It definitely does not have a chance to summon or send bats per target hit. Might just remove it completely from the table.
I might get to the other classes this weekend. Mercedes' needs a deeper look through the data to see if chain delays were actually added and/or changed. Otherwise, I just need to update Resistance and Nova classes and I can update posts. Probably going to be too lazy to update OP though.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
How come non hyper quinthrow is better than hyper quinthrow? And why does non hyper quinthrow have more hps and max m/s compared to hyper quinthrow?
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Spirateual
How come non hyper quinthrow is better than hyper quinthrow? And why does non hyper quinthrow have more hps and max m/s compared to hyper quinthrow?
Because I'm terrible.
It was actually using Stardust instead of Quintuple Throw. Fixed it for the Live table. Will update the rest when I get home later.
EDIT: Updated.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.218:
Shadower:
KP was changed to 3 stacks max. New Assassinate and Muspelheim delay and stronger hyper.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.218:
Phantom:
Not 100% sure if Arrow Blaster activates Noir Carte. I assume it does since it works on AFA now, or is that a bug?
Either way, Cross Over Chains + Elemental Charge is best now I think.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
nvm just saw the post.
So phantoms took a pretty significant hit to their max/s.
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Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)
KMS 1.2.221:
Black Heaven
Blade Master:
I'm sorry, there's too many nested spoilers and I can't give a pineapple.