Ask an Aran thread.

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Originally Posted by JoeTang

Final Toss is an Aran's highest single target DPS skill and the 4th strongest mob DPS skill in the game. Don't max it, it's really bad.

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This is pretty much the epitome of what I'm talking about regarding endless praise towards Final Toss without providing any kind of evidence as to why it's the end all be all Aran skill. Personally, I can't spam it quickly enough for it to be worthwhile because I play using a controller, but even if you're just sitting there spamming up down attack until the end of time I'm not convinced it's universally better, even on paper.

Assuming a full Overswing + Final Blow combo takes about the same amount of time as 6 final tosses or 5 rolling spins, the Overswing + Final Blow combo is doing 2546% damage unevenly distributed over 8 attacks versus final toss's 2730% damage (assuming that I calculated sudden strike's multiplier correctly) evenly distributed across 6 hits or rolling spin's 2200% damage evenly distributed across 20 hits. By those numbers alone, Final Toss does have a slight damage edge, but assuming you're hitting anywhere near the damage cap with your skills, you'd get more damage out of the Overswing + Final Blow combo because of it doing more hits in the same amount of time, and the comparison with Rolling Spin isn't even close.

Lastly, I said I didn't see the appeal of sitting around spamming Final Toss, not that it wasn't a viable means of dealing damage. I know I didn't make my Aran so I could mash myself to carpal tunnel spamming one particular skill input every quarter of a second for a slight potential increase in damage, anyway.

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Originally Posted by FabledGumbo

This is pretty much the epitome of what I'm talking about regarding endless praise towards Final Toss without providing any kind of evidence as to why it's the end all be all Aran skill. Personally, I can't spam it quickly enough for it to be worthwhile because I play using a controller, but even if you're just sitting there spamming up down attack until the end of time I'm not convinced it's universally better, even on paper.

Assuming a full Overswing + Final Blow combo takes about the same amount of time as 6 final tosses or 5 rolling spins, the Overswing + Final Blow combo is doing 2546% damage unevenly distributed over 8 attacks versus final toss's 2730% damage (assuming that I calculated sudden strike's multiplier correctly) evenly distributed across 7 hits or rolling spin's 2200% damage evenly distributed across 20 hits. By those numbers alone, Final Toss does have a slight damage edge, but assuming you're hitting anywhere near the damage cap with your skills, you'd get more damage out of the Overswing + Final Blow combo because of it doing more hits in the same amount of time, and the comparison with Rolling Spin isn't even close.

Lastly, I said I didn't see the appeal of sitting around spamming Final Toss, not that it wasn't a viable means of dealing damage. I know I didn't make my Aran so I could mash myself to carpal tunnel spamming one particular skill input every quarter of a second for a slight potential increase in damage, anyway.

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All the statistical information to prove that Final Toss does more damage than Overswing + Final Blow and Rolling Spin exists. You don't have to do silly pomegranate like assume it takes the same amount of time to do 6 final tosses as it takes to do an Overswing + Final Blow or 5 Rolling Spins, because it takes exactly 1.89s to do Overswing + Final Blow, 0.33s to do Final Toss, and 0.63s to do Rolling Spin. Final Toss would be the one to hit damage cap first, and if you can't do that, then it's meaningless to argue that Overswing is a better skill.

Rolling Spin does less damage at max level than level 1 Final Toss would so how anyone thinks it's a strong skill is beyond me. It's only useful if you use it in conjunction with Final Toss itself.

And you're using a controller, that's the easiest way to use Final Toss, I don't understand how anyone thinks pressing one key is hard. Maybe you need to learn how to use a controller.

If anything, that contributes to my point. Overswing + Final Blow is less than 200% damage worse on paper and is better if you're hitting near max damage. Not to mention that way you're not spamming one skill in one place that only works on virtually immobile enemies. The whole rolling spin thing was just to make a point about how situationally useful any skill is and that it's stupid to say that final toss is the only thing you need.

Besides, Overswing and Final Blow are both being buffed more in Union more than Final Toss is, making it not even a contest. The only utility you could possibly expect from Final Toss is the bonus damage from knockup which doesn't work on Boss monsters, including everything in LHC.

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Originally Posted by FabledGumbo

If anything, that contributes to my point. Overswing + Final Blow is less than 200% damage worse on paper and is better if you're hitting near max damage. Not to mention that way you're not spamming one skill in one place that only works on virtually immobile enemies. The whole rolling spin thing was just to make a point about how situationally useful any skill is and that it's stupid to say that final toss is the only thing you need.

Besides, Overswing and Final Blow are both being buffed more in Union more than Final Toss is, making it not even a contest. The only utility you could possibly expect from Final Toss is the bonus damage from knockup which doesn't work on Boss monsters, including everything in LHC.

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The whole point is that 10 4th job skill points gives you the highest DPS skill available to you, compared to spending another 60 to max both Overswing and Final Blow. The whole calculation proving that Final Toss is stronger than Overswing + Final Blow is based on the Union patch, and it's stronger by 2600%/s in the best case and 600%/s in the worst case. The margin is even higher in Akyrum patch.

Southperry decided to eat my reply with all the numbers crunched in it, but by my Union calculations, 6 final tosses with maxed sudden strike did 895% more damage than a Overswing + Final Blow combo, meaning that it did approximately 450% more per second unless Advanced Final Attack throws off those numbers somehow. I'm not sure how you got that 2600% best 600% worst thing.

Anyway, why's it easier to Final Toss spam on a controller? Did I miss Final Toss becoming a bindable skill? And what are you two cents on an Akyrum/Union skill build, then?

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Originally Posted by FabledGumbo

Southperry decided to eat my reply with all the numbers crunched in it, but by my Union calculations, 6 final tosses with maxed sudden strike did 895% more damage than a Overswing + Final Blow combo, meaning that it did approximately 450% more per second unless Advanced Final Attack throws off those numbers somehow. I'm not sure how you got that 2600% best 600% worst thing.

Anyway, why's it easier to Final Toss spam on a controller? Did I miss Final Toss becoming a bindable skill? And what are you two cents on an Akyrum/Union skill build, then?

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Did you account for critical? Final Attack? Defense? Combo Ability? Combo Judgement? Damage Over Time? Mastery?

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Originally Posted by JoeTang

Did you account for critical? Final Attack? Defense? Combo Ability? Combo Judgement? Damage Over Time? Mastery?

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I already said that I didn't factor in Final Attack. I really can't considering I don't know what attacks are capable of triggering it or what the restrictions are on it regarding per skill usage.

I really don't see what those other things have to do with it, though, since you generate combo count faster by doing Overswing + Final Blow than by spamming Final Toss since Final Blow got divided up into 3 hits. If anything, crit would favor Overswing + Final Blow because Final Blow autocrits. As far as I can tell everything else would be static between the two.

I'm just saying if you're going to throw numbers at me and force me to doublecheck by my own calculations, you should at least provide the source for your numbers so that I can compare rather than just say that my numbers are wrong.

At this point I'm willing to accept that Final Toss is better DPS than Overswing + Final Blow mostly because I was always willing to accept that it could do better damage on paper. What I want from you is information regarding how to make the calculations on paper effective in practice.

tl;dr Please share your skillbuild and your insight on spamming Final Toss using a controller.

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Originally Posted by FabledGumbo

I already said that I didn't factor in Final Attack. I really can't considering I don't know what attacks are capable of triggering it or what the restrictions are on it regarding per skill usage.

I really don't see what those other things have to do with it, though, since you generate combo count faster by doing Overswing + Final Blow than by spamming Final Toss since Final Blow got divided up into 3 hits. If anything, crit would favor Overswing + Final Blow because Final Blow autocrits. As far as I can tell everything else would be static between the two.

I'm just saying if you're going to throw numbers at me and force me to doublecheck by my own calculations, you should at least provide the source for your numbers so that I can compare rather than just say that my numbers are wrong.

At this point I'm willing to accept that Final Toss is better DPS than Overswing + Final Blow mostly because I was always willing to accept that it could do better damage on paper. What I want from you is information regarding how to make the calculations on paper effective in practice.

tl;dr Please share your skillbuild and your insight on spamming Final Toss using a controller.

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http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=47548

Critical favours Final Toss because critical hit rate doesn't affect Final Blow at all meaning Combo Ability has a lower effect on Overswing + Final Blow. I mentioned Combo Ability because it's a factor in the difference, regardless of which side it may favour, though the weapon attack bonus is probably more profound than critical hit rate.

All you need to do is not max Fenrir, Rolling Spin, and set up a macro on your controller.

I personally use Toss a lot more than I do overswing and final blow, it's also a ton easier to spam then overswing+final blow ever will be, as it's pretty easy to miss the timing for final blow due to lag.

last I checked macros were against the TOS and were considered a bannable offense :f3:

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Originally Posted by FabledGumbo

last I checked macros were against the TOS and were considered a bannable offense :f3:

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Oh, I guess the entire game should be banned for using the built-in macros the game already has then. Enjoy!

You do know that Nexon endorsed a gamepad that lets you set up key macros right?

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Originally Posted by CommanderJinn

You do know that Nexon endorsed a gamepad that lets you set up key macros right?

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I was mostly kidding, but sarcasm doesn't come across well on the internet.

When's Combo Tempest worth using?

Soo... free Aran 30 books. What's the best one to grab on a level 120? (choices are Overswing 30, High Mastery 20, Freeze Standing 20, Final Blow 30, High Defense 20, Combo Tempest 30, Combo Barrier 30, AFA 30)

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Originally Posted by Stereo

Soo... free Aran 30 books. What's the best one to grab on a level 120? (choices are Overswing 30, High Mastery 20, Freeze Standing 20, Final Blow 30, High Defense 20, Combo Tempest 30, Combo Barrier 30, AFA 30)

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Well, I don't believe in using the free 100% mastery books on skills that can only go to 20, since you get "double" the free books for a 30 skill.

That leaves OS, FB, Tempest, Barrier, and AFA. Out of those, AFA is maxed first since it boosts your damage on ALL skills, so it would be a good choice. Plus, it's the "new" skill, so there aren't many existing AFA 20/30 books out there... if Arans can even use the one that Heroes / Merc uses. AFA 30 doesn't seem too hard to find since I've heard all of the old HM/HD/FS 30 books turned into AFA 30 (I haven't been on to confirm this).

I'm personally going with AFA, especially since I spam FT a lot.

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Originally Posted by Stereo

Soo... free Aran 30 books. What's the best one to grab on a level 120? (choices are Overswing 30, High Mastery 20, Freeze Standing 20, Final Blow 30, High Defense 20, Combo Tempest 30, Combo Barrier 30, AFA 30)

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Overswing 30 is probably the most desirable book for a new 4th job Aran assuming you aren't going to use final toss as your main damage dealing skill, but at the same time getting advanced final attack 30 for free is probably the smarter decision both long term and financially.

Also, is there a skill build for union/alliance uprising I'm not seeing?

"Hmm, free lvl30 books huh? Well I have max OS and HM, lets take FB30 because other books are kinda useless"

*remembers that Arans now have AFA*

"Adv. Final Attack was in the list? But I didn't ..."


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-dHHtzJt1r8...puter+meme.png

I could afford it, but Yellonde fm... it's pain to find any book in there.

Which to max: Rolling Spin or Combo Judgement?

That's a personal preference since it doesn't matter either way.

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Originally Posted by JoeTang

Something's wrong with your Rolling Spin, since if it could damage cap every hit it is better than Final Toss and Overswing. Also, it should be impossible to reach 200% critical damage.

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What's maximum critical damage value?

Also, what's the attack speed on Rolling Spin? Perhaps that's what's wrong.