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Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Printable Version

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Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - kIkO - 2008-07-10

Low luk is win

I capped my luk at 59, waiting for pend + egg to drop it way more

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Harrisonized - 2008-07-12

I once did a calculation in which if a Luk Mage has everything equally scrolled as a Lukless mage, then they would be about the same. However, we know this isn't possible, because this means you would need an unlimited amount of mesos. As in unlimited, I mean billions, many mules having maxed mesos and having access to an unlimited amount of supplies, all while utilizing your luk to its fullest extent (as in if you cap your luk at 83, you shouldn't use anything lower than the level 80 set).
It is possible, but it's not going to happen.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - keturah - 2008-08-03

*looks at Heroine ...........forget it guys luk mages never gonna "outdamage" lukless. HOWEVER !!!! imo you are all missing the point !

Please remember that being a bishop isn't about high damage. You can compare your damage with other bishops but why? Unless were talking about killing skeles with genesis, we all suck as attackers Rolleyes
If you want to brag about your damage you should make a NL or a hero!

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Naixin - 2008-08-03

Magus Wrote:As a LUK mage (I started in 2005 when it was the only real option.) the difference is not that huge. A Lukless mage who is the same level as myself only does 2k (average) more damage. Personally I don't think it's such a big deal, I like the fancy armor I get to wear and I'm fine with doing 2k less on my spells.

^That.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Russt - 2008-08-03

Eh.
Lukless is always slightly better, and significantly cheaper for equivalent equips. (The reason why godly lukless stuff is so expensive is because, simply put, it's godly. If you don't bother with that kind of equipment, and just stick with decent to semi-decent items, you'll still be more or less on par with good luk/low luk mages and spend a lot less.)
But the difference isn't great enough to warrant resetting, really.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Dusk - 2008-08-04

Does LUK affect damage at all? I don't see how a Dragon Staff is a better weapon than any other staff.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Russt - 2008-08-04

Hm, I did a comparison of this kind awhile back and found that a higher staff is better than a lower staff for a cleric/priest because LUK affects the Heal formula more than base INT does.

But for all base-spell-attack based skills, LUK does nothing while INT gives a small static increase (static relative to spell attack anyway). So a Wooden Wand is actually better than a Dragon Staff, both clean.

Mage damage formula wasn't thought through very well, IMO.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Providence - 2008-08-04

Wouldn't normal-LUK Mages (assuming they have a capped base LUK) benefit enough from:
  • Zakum helmets
  • "Egg'd" Horntail necklaces
  • MW 30
  • Mage equipment
  • Scrolled wedding ring (each slot adds 1 of each stat)
for their lesser base INT to not matter at all? As long as they use all of their LUK towards something (like that level 163 staff), I don't see how it could. Then again, I don't know what a fully-upgraded Horntail necklace adds, so it might be possible for LUKless to be able to equip high-leveled LUK staves using the LUK they gain from equips like those.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Harrisonized - 2008-08-04

Russt Wrote:Hm, I did a comparison of this kind awhile back and found that a higher staff is better than a lower staff for a cleric/priest because LUK affects the Heal formula more than base INT does.
This was copied directly from your thread...
Russt Wrote:MAX = (INT * 4.8 + LUK * 4) * Magic / 1000 * Heal % * Target Multiplier
MIN = (INT * 1.2 + LUK * 4) * Magic / 1000 * Heal % * Target Multiplier
INT carries a weight of 4.8 while LUK carries only a weight of 4. Explain why you contradict yourself?

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Tikey - 2008-08-04

Providence Wrote:Wouldn't normal-LUK Mages (assuming they have a capped base LUK) benefit enough from:
  • Zakum helmets
  • "Egg'd" Horntail necklaces
  • MW 30
  • Mage equipment
  • Scrolled wedding ring (each slot adds 1 of each stat)
for their lesser base INT to not matter at all? As long as they use all of their LUK towards something (like that level 163 staff), I don't see how it could. Then again, I don't know what a fully-upgraded Horntail necklace adds, so it might be possible for LUKless to be able to equip high-leveled LUK staves using the LUK they gain from equips like those.

Keep in mind that the average magic attack gain for a clean LUK Staff/Wand is 12 (not counting DD and the Mushrooms). Not only will the LUK mage have to make up for the points they've used in LUK, but also for the massive amounts of magic attack lukless mages get from their weapons.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - blacktiger19 - 2008-08-06

Harrisonized Wrote:This was copied directly from your thread...

INT carries a weight of 4.8 while LUK carries only a weight of 4. Explain why you contradict yourself?

I don't know how valid the formula is, but you're only talking about the maximum. The minimum formula counts too, because no mage hits their max 100% of the time.

EDIT: to be on topic, I dont think LUK mages will be more powerful than LUKLESS mages, and if I were to start over today, I'd probably go Lukless. But considering that I'd have to re-do nearly 150 levels, my time >> the few base INT I'd gain from the conversion.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Russt - 2008-08-06

Yes. More accurately, INT carries a weight of 4.8+1.2=6, and LUK carries a weight of 4+4=8.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Harrisonized - 2008-08-06

Russt Wrote:Yes. More accurately, INT carries a weight of 4.8+1.2=6, and LUK carries a weight of 4+4=8.
So a pure LUK cleric will do more damage using heal than a pure int mage? Somehow, I highly doubt this.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Russt - 2008-08-06

INT adds magic, which multiplies over it all. LUK is only better than INT if total magic remains the same, which is the case when the LUK is used to equip higher level staffs with more magic attack.

I've already wondered about this; adding extra LUK over what your equipment needs is never better than INT except in extreme situations. Like if your magic is somehow more than 3 times your INT.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - blacktiger19 - 2008-08-07

Harrisonized Wrote:So a pure LUK cleric will do more damage using heal than a pure int mage? Somehow, I highly doubt this.

Remember that's just the heal formula, I dont think I've used heal as a serious weapon since 7x or so.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Cyanne - 2008-08-07

Int also adds magic attack, so unless 1 luk affects average damage more than 1 int + 1 matk, lukless clerics will still deal better damage.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Silence - 2008-08-28

they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Hazzy - 2008-08-28

Silence Wrote:they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20

Link, perhaps? :>

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Afrobean - 2008-08-28

Silence Wrote:they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20
What?

What comparison?

Both builds use the same weapon at endgame. Players with 130 luk use a lukless wand. Players with 4 luk use a lukless wand. The only thing luk can give for Magicians is higher level armor, but the APs gained by the higher level armor aren't even enough to break even. The only exception is Zhelm+HTnecklace, whereby Magicians can equip armor of about level 40 without paying a cost for it (the luk they get from their helm/pendant don't come at the expense of int).

And MW doesn't matter. Even highest luk users can use MW to it's full just like lukless, it just requires them to cap for it, and it also requires that they recast MW if they get dispelled.

Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass? - Kabanaw - 2008-08-28

I think that I might actually not have that big of a disadvantage over lukless mages. I capped my luk at 103, so a 22 luk HT pendant, a 15 luk z-helm, and a some extra luk on my other equips lets me use the lvl 163 staff. I have 99 more luk than a lukless, but since the lvl 163 has about 45 more MA than the 130 staff, it makes the difference 54. And assuming that I have 1000 MA and a lukless has 1055 MA, I would do about 6k less dmg with my ultimate if we were both using ice weapons. And considering how my equips are much cheaper since no one uses them, I'd say that's pretty good.