Question

If someone (let's say female in this case) sleeps with a female-to-male transgender who is pre-op does that make them lesbians? Or is it just the state of mind of the transgender that matters? Same with male and male-to-female, who still has a penis.

No I didn't sleep with one, before anyone asks. I met one tonight and the question arose in my mind.

Pics?

now you know how i feel about that question.

Ugh should've put this in the speakeasy because it's an actual serious question.

It would be considered lesbian by definition, but would you consider a strap on "sex"

subtle confirmation of sarah being actually transgender

I would ask myself: Am I attracted to this person because of their genitalia (which is female) or because of their personality (which is male)?

I would ask myself: Am I attracted to this person because of their genitalia (which is female) or because of their personality (which is male)?

dunno, in some lesbian relationships (and gay ones too) one takes the role of the submissive one, and the other takes the other role, their personality doesn't seem to me to be the way to categorize this.

i'm wondering how the state sees this actually.

I would say no. My old piano teacher is a male to female transgender, and married another woman. They're considered lesbians, so by that logic, yours would be "normal".

That IS no, right? Or am I confusing myself...

Genders and sexual preferences are things that are hard to label.

dunno, in some lesbian relationships (and gay ones too) one takes the role of the submissive one, and the other takes the other role, their personality doesn't seem to me to be the way to categorize this.

i'm wondering how the state sees this actually.

By "personality" I don't mean dominant/submissive.

I hear from gays that what we call "sexual orientation" isn't just about sex. It isn't just who you are sexually attracted to, but also who you are romantically drawn to. Who you are able to fall in love with, to want to share a life with (if you're monogamous, or at least serially monogamous, anyway).
This is also related to "gender identity". Us people who were born in the appropriate body have a hard time understanding transgenders. "What do you mean, 'I'm a man in a woman's body'? This is the 21st century, you can do anything in a woman's body that you can do in a man's. Play football, drive a truck, marry a woman... Why do you need to subject your body to hormone bombardment and complicated surgery?" And yet, they insist, "I just know I'm a man. I feel wrong in this female body."

So... still no clarification on this subject, huh. I'm hoping Eos or a transgender will have some input.

By your example wouldn't it be considered mutual masturbation as they can't genuinely have intercourse by natural means?

I feel like the only opinion that would matter, in this example, is that of the female sleeping with the transgender. If that was me, I wouldn't care to hear what everyone thinks I am. Assuming a perfectly loving and committed relationship, I would consider the transgender a male, but I would not have a solid label for the relationship we have. Of course, this is just how I think I would act in this kind of situation. I obviously could not speak for anyone in the transgender community.

So... still no clarification on this subject, huh. I'm hoping Eos or a transgender will have some input.

Lulz. Does Eos have a magical understanding of sexuality denied to others?

Anyway, your question isn't a real question.
It's inherently flawed because it's seeking a binary answer on a subject that's naturally spectral.

First of all, to define someone's sexuality by one sexual encounter is fairly juvenile.
A female fooling around with another female doesn't magically transform them into lesbians anymore than a gay man fooling around with a female would make that man straight.

A hypothetical encounter between two individuals sharing genitalia could result from either realized attraction or sheer curiosity.
Out of the encounter, either individual could find him/herself could wind of with any multitude of conclusions.
Maybe his/her entire life has been a lie and he/she is a homosexual.
Maybe he/she is actually attracted to both genders (bisexual).
Maybe it will just be a one-time thing that's never again pursued.
These are just a few examples that certainly don't delineate all possibilities, but even these small examples have issues such as "where do you draw the line between homosexual, bisexual, and heterosexual?"

Again, spectrum, but the spectrum goes deeper than that because, as this thread has already demonstrated, defining one's gender isn't entirely an objective matter.
The common stance is to define it by a person's physical traits, but others have already mentioned that there are plenty who determine gender by what a person was born as, how a person acts, or even what any individual considers his/herself.

Since the definition of one's sexual orientation unavoidably relies on the definition of sexual identity and because sexual identity isn't a clearly defined, it's impossible to clearly define sexual orientation.

"Translation squirms in the presence of the exotic. The (language) which I speak here imposes itself. It is an outside frame of reference, a particular system. Dangers lurk in all systems. Systems incorporate the unexamined beliefs of their creators. Adopt a system, accept its beliefs, and you help strengthen the resistance to change."

I would ask myself: Am I attracted to this person because of their genitalia (which is female) or because of their personality (which is male)?

I think being attracted to someone because of their genitalia would be considered a fetish.
Most people don't crawl into bed with someone because they've seen what's in between the other person's legs and found it to die for.

dunno, in some lesbian relationships (and gay ones too) one takes the role of the submissive one, and the other takes the other role, their personality doesn't seem to me to be the way to categorize this.

i'm wondering how the state sees this actually.

Any given state would have a different definition. Not that it matters since laws concerning such things are rarely scientifically based. Popular opinion and all that.

I do find it sad that you limit someone's personality to whether they are aggressive or passive.
I assure you that most individuals I've met are far more complex.

By your example wouldn't it be considered mutual masturbation as they can't genuinely have intercourse by natural means?

That's a whole different subject, but I appreciate your line of thinking.

Any given state would have a different definition. Not that it matters since laws concerning such things are rarely scientifically based. Popular opinion and all that.

I do find it sad that you limit someone's personality to whether they are aggressive or passive.
I assure you that most individuals I've met are far more complex.

i said "some" for a reason, i know not all of them are that, however my opinions on this subject are just that, opinions, which is why i refrain from saying anything else.

and in the end, i think this whole thread is down to personal opinion, isn't it?

If someone (let's say female in this case) sleeps with a female-to-male transgender who is pre-op does that make them lesbians?

If the transition is occurring they're considered the gender they're transitioning into, regardless of whether or not they're still pre-op.

Chaz Bono for example is preop, yet already considered male by the state of California simply because he filed for formal recognition of the change.

Lulz. Does Eos have a magical understanding of sexuality denied to others?

He's pretty knowledgeable about sexuality usually.

If the transition is occurring they're considered the gender they're transitioning into, regardless of whether or not they're still pre-op.

Chaz Bono for example is preop, yet already considered male by the state of California simply because he filed for formal recognition of the change.

Wait, what?! Chaz bono has a fucking BEARD. How is he pre-op!? Does he drink bull semen every hour, on the hour?



And I guess I should rephrase the question to be a little more clear because one sexual encounter does not make anyone anything. But would the aforementioned sexual encounter be considered lesbian. I'm assuming Eos said yes but I feel like he over-simplified it and and Viaje... as usual... over-stated it.

And I guess I should rephrase the question to be a little more clear because one sexual encounter does not make anyone anything. But would the aforementioned sexual encounter be considered lesbian. I'm assuming Eos said yes but I feel like he over-simplified it and and Viaje... as usual... over-stated it.

If people are having sex and there's not a dong to be seen, it would seem pretty fair to consider the encounter itself "lesbian" only if you base gender solely on physical qualities. Your theoretical partner would most likely disagree.

No answer should be considered more correct than the other.

i said "some" for a reason, i know not all of them are that, however my opinions on this subject are just that, opinions, which is why i refrain from saying anything else.

and in the end, i think this whole thread is down to personal opinion, isn't it?

The original question comes down to opinion, yes.
Whether or not personality is entirely defined by tendency to initiate/a desire for control is not a matter of opinion.

Wait, what?! Chaz bono has a pineappleing BEARD. How is he pre-op!? Does he drink bull semen every hour, on the hour?

He has a beard for the same reason older women can start growing "beards".
He's has more testosterone than a "normal" female body.

And I guess I should rephrase the question to be a little more clear because one sexual encounter does not make anyone anything. But would the aforementioned sexual encounter be considered lesbian. I'm assuming Eos said yes but I feel like he over-simplified it and and Viaje... as usual... over-stated it.

I guarantee you that I didn't exaggerate a thing.
Did I go into more detail than necessary? Possibly, but I prefer covering my bases.

Anyway, the answer that those who specialize in gender studies will give you is the one Eos gave:
Regardless of state of transition, the transgender person would be considered whatever gender they identify as.
So, in the scenario you gave, it'd be considered a heterosexual interaction.

However, I personally don't see this as precluding certain activities in this interaction as being considered homosexual acts.
For example, if the cisgender female tried to answer the famous question presented to us by Lil Kim and Sisqo, I'd consider that to be a homosexual act.