The "Bishop Ult vs. AM Ult" thread

I've said it before. Cut any portion of Genesis (range, mob hit, or damage) and it ruins it. What you're suggesting to make it "fair" would make it so that it's only useful in situations where the skill is DEFINITELY broken already (such as hitting 15 things at once, which, in case you didn't know, never really happens). Cut the effectiveness of the attack and it becomes no more helpful to a Bishop than SR. I know I'm getting to a bit of a broken record here, but Genesis's per hit DPS is only 1.5x SR. Cut the damage and Bishops will just go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the range and Bishops will go back to SRing Dreamy Ghosts, cut the amount of monsters hit... well actually... that probably wouldn't stop them from fighting at Skele, but hitting 6 things max won't really be that much of a change from the current system, because like I said, we CAN hit 15 at once, but it never really happens.

What's so bad about Dreamy Ghosts? Just because they might get better exp there, that doesn't mean every Bishop ever will be there. People will still train at Skelegons or Newties and it won't matter too much. Besides, at least then the training speeds between classes will be relatively balanced.

(Just off the top of my head, the Gene nerf I'm thinking of is something like... Make the range 300 with very little vertical range, cut the power by half or so, reduce the MP cost to around 1000 or less, and lower the casting time a lot.)

I don't appreciate the condescension. You're neglecting to notice that there is a difference between arguing in favor of an unfair status quo and arguing in favor of an unfair change to the system.

There is no way you could enact such a massive change to the status quo without tearing the entire fabric of the game apart. Just stop for a minute and imagine Nexon released an anouncement saying "Bishops are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Genesis. Happy Mapling~!" Can you imagine the pomegranatestorms that would ensue? Not just from Bishops mad that they'll be relegated back down to their position they held in 3rd job, but also folks of the other classes that have come to rely on Bishops in their parties? I assure you that a large number of active Bishops would quit if this were to happen. Just the same as I would imagine would happen if Nexon made an announcement saying "Nightlords are too strong for their party skills, we're removing Triple Throw. Happy Mapling~!"

I think your second quote is just as extreme as my apple thing. Nightlords don't even have good party skills; how is that even a point? And removing Genesis, as we've agreed on, is stupid. If they were to do that, it should be replaced with another skill that makes them more able to train. You're oversimplifying our arguments and showing them in a stupid, extremist light.

Balance doesn't exist in MapleStory. Give up on your aim, because you'll never hit your target.

Then what's happening here? This thread has clearly turned into what should be as opposed to what is, so I ask you, what are you arguing in favor of? If you were to make a game, would it be full if imbalances and severe differences in class tiers by design? Or would you aim to make the game balanced and have each class have a point.

Disclaimer: I'm NOT saying make every class the same. That's fucking retarded. I'm saying that while classes have differences and excel in one point or another, no class should be better than any other class by such an extreme margin as in Maple.

You obviously do not understand the way things work or the way things would work if a system like you are suggesting were to be adopted. Bahamut isn't unfair as is because it doesn't help that much. But put them in an environment like Dreamy Ghosts and you'll see Bahamut's effectiveness increase by a large margin. Arguing to cut Genesis and replace it with a stronger SR puts Bishops back into an environment where they only thrive as attackers in maps like Dreamy Ghosts. You take away Genesis and I guarantee that most Bishops wouldn't set foot in Skele or Newts.

There aren't enough Dreamy ghost maps to support that many Bishops. Ideally I'd like to train in a 2-attacker party at the bottom of Newts, but there simply aren't that many Newt maps. And even though that's the best exp for my class, many Bowmasters still choose to go to Skelegons. Why? You tell me, I dunno.

This is not true. Also, your statements about how advantaged Bishops are (funny how you specifically talk about only Holy Magicians rather than all Magicians...? Freudian slip, much?) is inaccurate as well. Calculate the total DPS of a Bishop (or, really, Mage), then compare it to the total DPS possible from the other classes. I assure you that it is not 3 times greater.

3 is arbitrary. Still, note that other classes have to spend time MOVING. Arch-Mages and Holy-Mages, not so much. Sure my potential DPS might be higher than a Bishop constantly hitting 5 targets, but then I'm not always standing in place hitting one target now, am I? And, at the moment, Bishops are the most advantaged because the best mob is holy-weak. But that's more of a problem with the game than the classes. I'm not sure you've heard about this, but a Bishop that can OHKO skelegons all the time with Gene trains better solo than with any party member.

This can only shift the imbalances though. So they remove Genesis, all Bishops quit and start playing Nightlords instead. So everyone complains about how advantaged Nightlords are. So they remove Onyx Apples, nerf Triple Throw, and make Haste a bandit-only skill. So all Nightlords quit and start playing Heroes. Then people peach about the insane damage possible from Brandish and how unfair scrolled shields can make things. So they nerf Brandish and make shields not able to add attack anymore. So everyone quits Heroes and starts playing FP Mages. Then everyone peaches about how Mist can killsteal an entire map without effort, so they nerf Mist to make it only able to hit 6 monsters at once.

I don't know who "people" is and I really don't give a damn. The idiot populous will always complain about something. Every average joe in the country thinks they know exactly what's wrong with the economy and how to fix it, but that doesn't make them right or smart.

For good game balance, generally speaking, this is what needs to be done: fixing the Crash skills, removing Onyx Apples and making marriages worthwhile in some other way, and making Paladins, Dark Knights, and Shadowers better.


Once again though, the real question I wanted to ask you was what are you arguing in favor of if it's not balance?