What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills?

Way much faster for Magicians only? Hun, my 197 DrK friend trains with one Bishop at Newties, and on the bottom can get 30m+ exp/hr on 2x. That's faster than Magicians soloing there if they're 100% 2hkoing.

One Bishop. One ultimate spamming* Bishop.

By the way, I'd like to address this issue for a lot of people who don't understand Magician training without ultimates. Surprisingly, it's HELLA slower than anything you non-Magicians have normally. Soloing with Demon, Summon, and Single-Target can net us roughly 12-16m exp/hr on 2x at Himes

At Himes! Ask any other class to train at Himes and they won't even come close. And it's technically 3rd job content. Now double their HP and triple their experience, and you'll end up with really good EXP figures.

20m exp/hr.

I can get that solo Meteoing pineappling Blue Wyverns.

Ultimate spamming* at Blue Wyverns.

Believe it or not, Magicians COMPLETELY suck without ultimates the way they are.

So why must they be the way they are? I haven't seen a single person in this thread seriously propose that ultimates be removed without buffing anything else about them.

And while I agree that it makes them solo faster than every other class, you pair ANY other class with an ultimate user, and you're training as fast as possible.

Oh, but if you can pair an ultimate spammer* with an ultimate spammer*, why would either one even want to train with a non-ultimate partner if they could get much better experience that way?

I don't understand why there's so much hate on skills that actually BENEFIT you, which is why earlier I said "please don't complain for a passive EXP boost if you're already screaming for ultimates to be removed."

Because "training as fast as possible" shouldn't be inextricably linked to an attacking skill that 3 out of 12 classes get. Besides, even ultimate spamming* loses to the EXP curve eventually. They're not the solution at all. Higher leveled content is.

And here's the other issue with removing ultimates: where do you want us to train? Sharks? If you make a new, higher-leveled "Hime"-styled map, but that only appears on 19 channels, guess what. All of the non-Magicians in each server will hog those maps, and Magicians would be kicked out because we just can't kill as fast as you with combos.

Correction: you with combos can't kill as fast as you ultimate spamming*.

So if you don't like how Magicians are currently built, you need to understand you only have two options to fix them. Either (1) you keep ultimates the way they are understanding it's essentially the only decent way we can train

No, you do have a perfectly decent way to train. It's just that you also have a much faster way to train that completely overshadows it.

or (2) you remove ultimates (or nerf them somehow), and thus have to boost all 3 skills (demon, summon, single target) in both attack power and casting speed, AND you have to make enough flat, "Hime"-styled maps for both non-Magicians and Magicians.

Ideas can be great only when they're fully thought through.

Unless I'm missing something, most people in this thread are proposing something along the lines of that.