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Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Printable Version

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Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - kayeyearekay - 2014-08-23

EDIT
 Stars add all stats after using an all stat scroll
so, whats changed? basically bonus potential. it's live and getting legendary tier only takes elbow grease.
lets start with side by side comparison
[Image: fzFrH5j]

Grey Wrote:Tyrant:

Stat1 Star2 Star3 Star4 Star5 Star6 Star7 Star
All Stats+19+20+22+25+29--
ATT/MATK-----+9+10

5 Star: All Stats +115, (m)atk + 0
7 Star: AS +115, (m)atk + 19 super prots stop working here (?)
10 Star: AS +115, (m)atk + 55
12 Star: AS +115, (m)atk + 84
15 Star: AS +115, (m)atk + 135

So 7star, we looking at 127 stats (12 + 115), 46 atk (15+ [4x +3 atk scrolls] + 19) tyrant vs
30 stats, 20 atk Hero's clearly there is base advantage for tyrants.

then there's the godly potential. +20% TD, +20% AS, +40% Boss - lets just assume calculations are just vs bosses
so like +60% damage, and 20% AS for Hero's. (blah blah diminish returns.... shush! im estimating anyway.)

tyrant gloves legendary can roll 33% (12%, 12%, 9%) main stat; 20% (7%, 7%, 6%) bonus; total of 53% stat glove;
OR.. I want a line of dSI, so 21% (dSI, 12%, 9%) + 20%, lets add dSE neb.
dSE/dSI gloves are pretty commonplace among end-game players, but not needing to swap buff gloves increases dps/dpm
i cant calculate damage increase of dSE... but dSI is ~10% increase.
so tyrants have 41% AS, dSE, +~10%dmg
(gonna go limb and assume bonus pot 7%stat is better than ~13atk. most of the people around my level of equips, have 1 wa = +1.5k range * 1str = +~700 range somethin like 7atk = 15str. 2 atk > 4 str, but 5str > 2atkWink

Hero's
30 stat, 20 atk, 60% dmg, 20% AS

Tyrant's (7 star)
127 stat, 46 atk, 10% dmg (dSI) 33% AS, dSE

Tyrant's are up on a lot of stats, but behind 50% dmg, not including dSE. (back to diminish effects... SHUSH!!!!)
BUT it does look like Tyrants could be ahead right now; and that's only 7 star. every additional star is only adding attack and of course that's good, but last time (mardia) saw no booms, they were 2b. plus guardians... only the most elite will bother going past 7th star. tbh, ill probably only 5star EE and not try to worry about making it to 15. who knows we might even get those miracle 15 star scrolls from kms xD. after paying/passing the +3atks, (or maybe +10stats?) id say almost hands down, that even a 5star tyrant glove is better than hero's

Discuss
(Un-shush)

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - xlxlxlxl - 2014-08-23

I've ran the numbers for a 8 starred tyrant glove (star force) with decent potential compared to 2-10 rank dojo gloves for my NW on my equip spreadsheet. With 227% boss lv 2 link skills and %total damage from passives applied, A tyrant glove with just 15% luck would give similar damage to dojo gloves. And with more stars and/or better potential they would beat dojo gloves for my character. The sheer amount of base stats tyrant gloves give is what allows them to compete with dojo gloves.

I'm sitting at around 2.2k luk and 700 attack before potential. For ease of comparison, I'll assume my dex to be 0, making my damage directly proportional to luk*attack.

127 luk from and 48 attack from a scrolled 8 starred tyrant results in a 13% damage increase for my gloveless character.
40% boss (in addition to the 307% boss+total I already have), 25 all stats, and 15 attack results in a 16% damage increase for my gloveless character.
Remember, these are rough estimations ignoring dex. They're much closer on my spreadsheet (9.47m per line vs 9.46m lol)

It's definitely going to depend on the player and their stats, but I believe a good tyrant glove would be better for anyone doing anywhere near cap provided they are willing to spend a fuckton getting the tyrant glove up to par.

I'm just gonna stick with dojo until Heckaton and Star Force come. I've never been a fan of equip switching :/

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Green4Ever - 2014-08-23

The fact that you won't have to Dojo ever again is something else that could be factored in as well. That's one of the main reasons I've been wanting to pursue a pair.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Chilly - 2014-08-24

To be honest, this is not the type of thread I expect to see in the Game Mechanics section. The writing is muddled and unprofessional; the math, if you want to call it that, is crude, inexact and more assumption than anything else.

I don't expect dissertation-level or peer-reviewed publication quality, but definitely more than this. This really belongs in the Discussion section at best and I hope it gets moved there.

As a Discussion piece, I am probably what could be described as a "mid-tier" player and the break even point for me between Top 10 Dojo Gloves and a Tyrant Glove is somewhere between the 7th and 8th Stars. For my brother, with better gear, the 8th Star is the break even point. Getting Enhancements into that range doesn't seem that difficult, so I think we're both going to get a pair.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Dudewitbow - 2014-08-24

best gloves would be 15 star tyrant transposed to sweetwater for higher potential tier and finished off stars(as its no longer superior item, but carried over the superior's Enhancements stats over to the sweetwater gloves - 1 star due to how the system works) I would think.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - xlxlxlxl - 2014-08-24

Dudewitbow Wrote:best gloves would be 15 star tyrant transposed to sweetwater for higher potential tier and finished off stars(as its no longer superior item, but carried over the superior's Enhancements stats over to the sweetwater gloves - 1 star due to how the system works) I would think.

16 stars and above depends on how KMS treats the stars from superior items though. I would assume a transposed tyrant would be marked like MEE'd items are, making it unable to be enhanced past 15 stars. Too bad KMS doesn't have SW equips to test this. Either way the extra stats, potential tier, and set effect are huge.

There's also %min and max crit damage potential lines to consider which are a bigger damage boost than %stat for anyone who can afford to do this.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - hadriel - 2014-08-24

The amount of effort I need to patch up the numbers here would be poorly spent. For future questions regarding whether to e.g. swap out your Dojo glove to a Tyrant, please tell us:

1) how you intended to scroll it, and to what extent, and any neb, and what potentials you are aiming for
2) all your stats, and I mean all your stats i.e. your class, %STAT, %M/ATT, %DMG, %Boss, WA/MA, STAT, speed stage, %CR, min/maxcritdmg (if some of these are not affected then don't need to provide)
3) anything of interest that affects bossing/grinding

Basically, give us an SS of your stat page, then refer to this thread to give us the other necessary stats. Ball-park figures with some rounding errors are fine, and anything coming to <1~1.5% DPS difference is negligible.


edit: well I can give some idea of numbers here. For an idea of how much %(Boss+DMG+Hyper) you need to to have to make the 60%Boss from Dojo glove provide a given DPS increase, it is simply [%(Boss+DMG+Hyper)/60% - 1]. Or in a table, then:


DPS increase/%Current %(Boss+DMG+Hyper)
60%0%
50%20%
40%50%
30%100%
20%200%
15%300%
12%400%
10%500%
9%567%
8%6.5%
7.5%700%
7%757%
5%1100%


You can do similar numbers for %STAT etc., then multiply the DPS increases together. Please take off your glove when doing this. It also makes typing difficult lol.

Hadriel

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - ponsez - 2014-08-25

In the case of Xenon, you have to take into consideration that enhancements on tyrant gloves only give primary and secondary stat instead of all stats like on other tyrant gear which means that the damage boost wont be as high as with other tyrants on Xenon class.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - kayeyearekay - 2014-08-25

ponsez Wrote:In the case of Xenon, you have to take into consideration that enhancements on tyrant gloves only give primary and secondary stat instead of all stats like on other tyrant gear which means that the damage boost wont be as high as with other tyrants on Xenon class.

except for the star enhancements.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - ponsez - 2014-08-25

kayeyearekay Wrote:except for the star enhancements.

I dont think it is a good idea to take as reference a system that we dont know if other services than KMS will get.

The current enhancement system doesnt give all stats on Tyrant gloves so it should be taken into consideration.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - kayeyearekay - 2014-08-25

ponsez Wrote:I dont think it is a good idea to take as reference a system that we dont know if other services than KMS will get.

The current enhancement system doesnt give all stats on Tyrant gloves so it should be taken into consideration.

your kidding right? do you not know about tyrants? surly in your server youve seen 5star smegad or FM gloves by now...

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - ponsez - 2014-08-25

kayeyearekay Wrote:your kidding right? do you not know about tyrants? surly in your server youve seen 5star smegad or FM gloves by now...

Im not kidding, like i said enhancements dont give all stats on tyrant gloves.

Screenshot took on EMS:

[Image: f03o5z.png]

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - CakesXD - 2014-08-25

ponsez Wrote:Im not kidding, like i said enhancements dont give all stats on tyrant gloves.

Screenshot took on EMS: -snip-

It's the same in GMS. +115 main stat and secondary stat for 5 stars.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Justin - 2014-08-25

The reason you guys are confused is because you don't remember how enhancements work. If you were to use an armor for all stat scroll on the gloves they would more than likely give the +115 to the stats gained from the scroll as well. An enhancement can NOT give + stat to a stat that does not already exist on the equip.

Someone should give this a shot and post the results. I'm pretty sure it'll work.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Simcaz - 2014-08-25

Justin Wrote:The reason you guys are confused is because you don't remember how enhancements work. If you were to use an armor for all stat scroll on the gloves they would more than likely give the +115 to the stats gained from the scroll as well. An enhancement can NOT give + stat to a stat that does not already exist on the equip.

Someone should give this a shot and post the results. I'm pretty sure it'll work.

this is wrong, atleast for our current enhancement system

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - kayeyearekay - 2014-08-25

Justin Wrote:The reason you guys are confused is because you don't remember how enhancements work. If you were to use an armor for all stat scroll on the gloves they would more than likely give the +115 to the stats gained from the scroll as well. An enhancement can NOT give + stat to a stat that does not already exist on the equip.

Someone should give this a shot and post the results. I'm pretty sure it'll work.

i see what you're saying;

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - xlxlxlxl - 2014-08-25

Simply using a scroll to add all stats then enhancing won't give those stats from enhancement.

http://i.imgur.com/Tde0998.png
This is a 15 starred pirate overall scrolled to +12 with 9 all stat scrolls. As you can see, no additional int or luk was added from enhancements.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Grey - 2014-08-25

That rule specifically applies only to enhancements on superior items and miraculous equip enhancements.

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - Dark Zero - 2014-08-26

Dudewitbow Wrote:best gloves would be 15 star tyrant transposed to sweetwater for higher potential tier and finished off stars(as its no longer superior item, but carried over the superior's Enhancements stats over to the sweetwater gloves - 1 star due to how the system works) I would think.

And with that SW would be as far the BEST option in the whole game... that if it works like that....

Revisiting the Best End Game gloves - #1 Dojos vs Tyrants - tecul1 - 2014-08-26

Dark Zero Wrote:And with that SW would be as far the BEST option in the whole game... that if it works like that....

SW already trump every other set due to 15 star (and possibly more) tyrants being able to be transposed onto them. I don't know who would EVER do that, but there you go.