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+---- Thread: Fixing Paladins (/showthread.php?tid=1537)
Fixing Paladins - ZartMorder - 2008-07-23
This is a topic which I've been mulling over for a long time and I'd like to hear others thoughts on the subject.
As we all know, a Paladin only reaches "equality" with other classes in regards to damage when the monster they're fighting has a weakness to Holy. The reason is obviously two-fold, Holy Charge being the strongest of the charges at 140% and the weakness itself adding at 50% damage bonus (at max level charge).
While I am mostly content with being only able to bring out my best damage on monsters with weaknesses to our elements, I do not find it fair that our job should be relinquished to a single type of monster. (I realize mages have the same general issue, but with their ultimates, I feel the issue is more that they need a higher level monster to compete with bishops at skelegons.)
With that said, I have thought of two possible solutions to even things out:
1.) The first solution begins with reducing the percentage of Holy Charge from 140% to 120%. Next is a power boost to the attacking skills of a Paladin: Blast increased from 550% to 650% and Advance Charge would be increased from 350% to 410%.
For this solution, the attacks are scaled by the amount that Holy Charge is reduced and rounded up to the nearest 10% so that the damage output when using Holy would be essentially the same or slightly higher. I left Lightning Charge as the highest percentage increase as it is the charge that has the fewest monsters that are weak to it. Likewise, Holy is made equal to Fire Charge because of the larger quantity of weaknesses for those two. They are most likely to be the main charges for a Paladin. Needless to say, Ice Charge remains the weakest due to its capability to freeze.
2.) The second solution has multiple options to accomplish the same goal. The overall idea of this solution is to increase the percentages of the three charges from the third job. In all variations of this solution, I would have the end result be as follows:
Lightning Charge - 145%
Fire Charge - 140%
Ice Charge - 125%
[INDENT]a.) The first way of doing this is to just add a percentage boost onto the skills via Advance Charge. In addition to changing Charge Blow, it would now increase the percentage of the other charges. Each of the ten levels of the skill would add an additional 2% to the damage multiplier of the charges. In this way, it would still matter if the charges had been maxed (both because of the percentage and the weakness multiplier).
b.) The second way is by having Holy Charge serve as the change for the other skills. Each of the twenty levels of the skill would add and additional 1% to the other charges. In this method, all the charges would reach their maximum potential at the same time.
c.) The final way I have thought of is to have a new skill created that only requires one SP and has the SP automatically added when the skill is gotten in the same fashion as getting the mount/scrolling skill. The skill would add the extra 20% onto the charges. Since the skill would be adding a large damage increase, the quest to receive it would need to be rather difficult (though hopefully not overly so).
[INDENT]Alternatively, it could be a multi-level skill that requires doing many quests to get all the points. Perhaps a 10 level skill where the quests can only be done once per level, such as the first point at 120, the next at 121, and so on to 129 where the skill can be maxed. Each level would add 2% as in the Advance Charge scenario.[/INDENT][/INDENT]
And that's all I have to say about that for now. What do you think, fellow Paladins (and non-paladins who feel our plight
)?
Fixing Paladins - Xelstyle - 2008-07-23
I believe that if Paladins simply needed to be balanced in order to fight neutral monsters more efficiently, the first scenario would be more likely.
However, I'd think it'd be more reasonable to have Holy Charge at 130% and ACB increased to 400%.
Either way though, I think you guys are quite set at the moment.
There are several places that suit your skills, just like there are others for other people.
Fixing Paladins - kleptophobia - 2008-07-23
Heh, that is an imbalance that I've always found strange as Poison & Lightning (according to Wizet, on their website A LONG time ago) were the strongest two elements, holy actually being the weakest. But since Holy is 4th job it obviously had its power increased. I think option one is more elegant.
Fixing Paladins - Stereo - 2008-07-23
My main issue is that CB's 90% stun is not increased with ACB.
It's crappy compared to ice (100%), Bowmens' bird stun (99%) and it's not like it even has a good physical range.
Decreasing Elemental Advantage by 25% (so it's 1.25x) and increasing base skill percentages accordingly would help enormously ->
145% Fire
150% Lightning
125% Ice
170% Holy
This way it wouldn't be Paladins doing 75% the damage of Heroes on any neutral boss, it would be a more respectable 95%, or around 85% with Lightning if the boss resists Holy.
Ideally Blast would be animated as a slash I am not liking stabbing 100% of the time with my BW. I am not currently planning to put points in Blast for that reason, it goes against what I want from my character. I'll go with Rush/Stance/MW first to assist my solo-ability where Blast would just make me loathe my character.
Fixing Paladins - ZartMorder - 2008-07-23
Stereo Wrote:My main issue is that CB's 90% stun is not increased with ACB.Not a bad idea either, though I'd still want to see the elements more equalized. The problem I have with the way it is is that we must be at Holy-weak monsters to get our max damage and it's by a wide margin. If you want to keep Holy as the strongest, that's fine, but I'd prefer it only to be a difference of maybe 5% to the next highest element.
It's crappy compared to ice (100%), Bowmens' bird stun (99%) and it's not like it even has a good physical range.
Decreasing Elemental Advantage by 25% (so it's 1.25x) and increasing base skill percentages accordingly would help enormously ->
145% Fire
150% Lightning
125% Ice
170% Holy
This way it wouldn't be Paladins doing 75% the damage of Heroes on any neutral boss, it would be a more respectable 95%, or around 85% with Lightning if the boss resists Holy.
Stereo Wrote:Ideally Blast would be animated as a slash I am not liking stabbing 100% of the time with my BW. I am not currently planning to put points in Blast for that reason, it goes against what I want from my character. I'll go with Rush/Stance/MW first to assist my solo-ability where Blast would just make me loathe my character.I'm assuming you're aware that it's still a 3:2 slash/stab ratio despite the animation. That said, I totally agree. I'd prefer the extra height of a slash so that I don't have to always be jumping to make sure I hit Pap.
Fixing Paladins - wobbufet - 2008-07-23
The only way paladins should be 'fixed' imo is bossing. Maybe change it so that elements that a boss is neutral too only get reduced 10% in damage compared to those that they're weak too?
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-07-23
I only want the damage limit removed, then I'm fine. Paladins aren't a class you're playing for bossing, you know. With leafre out, we're all fine, and level just as fast, if not faster, than heroes.
Fixing Paladins - Hero - 2008-07-23
Paladins level faster than heroes, especially with skeles, as far as I know.
As for your rant on fixing paladins: You can't fix something that's not broken. (Axe brandish, genesis vs ultimates, BW stability are just a few examples of stuff that's "broken") Paladins have been advertised and what not solely for their elements. Now you want to be better at being neutral? Wrong class, sir. There's plenty of stuff broken in this game, but paladins sucking vs neutral isn't one of them.
Just my 2 cents. Or 5. Idk.
Fixing Paladins - ThisIsSal - 2008-07-23
there's really nothing wrong with paladins.
Fixing Paladins - Taiketo - 2008-07-23
Only thing I want changed personally is blast being a stab animation. Stabs have pomegranate range. 1HBW blasts can't even hit Pianus without jumping (lol 1H BW though).
And the damage cap removed, simply because I know I'll eventually hit it.
Fixing Paladins - HiiEN - 2008-07-23
Hero Wrote:Paladins level faster than heroes, especially with skeles, as far as I know.I kinda agree, I think that'd defeat the main purpose of a paladin if they were to be balanced to raise their damage on a neutral just to be able to (almost) match the capability of a Hero. Each class has their focus, and that's what we should be knowing to stick for. I mean if you wanna go the extra mile why not just say "let's raise the threshold of Berserk to 80% so they can stay Berserked the whole time so Drks aren't the only nerfed class on bosses"? =\
As for your rant on fixing paladins: You can't fix something that's not broken. (Axe brandish, genesis vs ultimates, BW stability are just a few examples of stuff that's "broken") Paladins have been advertised and what not solely for their elements. Now you want to be better at being neutral? Wrong class, sir. There's plenty of stuff broken in this game, but paladins sucking vs neutral isn't one of them.
Just my 2 cents. Or 5. Idk.
Fixing Paladins - Stereo - 2008-07-23
Hero Wrote:Now you want to be better at being neutral? Wrong class, sir. There's plenty of stuff broken in this game, but paladins sucking vs neutral isn't one of them.
So what, we should rely on other classes hunting neutral monsters to get all our skillbooks?
Skelegon is the only huntable Holy monster for Paladin skillbooks (Achilles and Blast 20 afaik), Pianus also drops 4 necessary books (Magnet 20/30, Rush 20/30) but they are by no means huntable - I haven't even seen a Pianus since 4th job was released, and in addition Heros do more damage to Fire weak monsters than Paladins.
If I could at least hunt for my own skillbooks without sacrificing 1/3 of my damage I'd be a whole lot happier.
Fixing Paladins - Hero - 2008-07-23
Stereo Wrote:So what, we should rely on other classes hunting neutral monsters to get all our skillbooks?
Skelegon is the only huntable Holy monster for Paladin skillbooks (Achilles and Blast 20 afaik), Pianus also drops 4 necessary books (Magnet 20/30, Rush 20/30) but they are by no means huntable - I haven't even seen a Pianus since 4th job was released, and in addition Heros do more damage to Fire weak monsters than Paladins.
If I could at least hunt for my own skillbooks without sacrificing 1/3 of my damage I'd be a whole lot happier.
You can still kill them. You just do a tad bit less damage. If you were to say completely impossible to fight them Anego-esque, I'd have pity. Other then that, sorry to say, no. Your entire class is based off of elements and elemental advantage. You can still kill other monsters, just not as effective.
Fixing Paladins - HiiEN - 2008-07-23
Stereo Wrote:So what, we should rely on other classes hunting neutral monsters to get all our skillbooks?You really don't need those books from Pianus though, at least not until late 16x or 17x. I mean training you're still fine I don't see the problem, and if you're hunting bosses it's still decent, it just means you have to take a few more hits that's all.
Skelegon is the only huntable Holy monster for Paladin skillbooks (Achilles and Blast 20 afaik), Pianus also drops 4 necessary books (Magnet 20/30, Rush 20/30) but they are by no means huntable - I haven't even seen a Pianus since 4th job was released, and in addition Heros do more damage to Fire weak monsters than Paladins.
If I could at least hunt for my own skillbooks without sacrificing 1/3 of my damage I'd be a whole lot happier.
Fixing Paladins - ZartMorder - 2008-07-23
Hero Wrote:Paladins level faster than heroes, especially with skeles, as far as I know.
As for your rant on fixing paladins: You can't fix something that's not broken. (Axe brandish, genesis vs ultimates, BW stability are just a few examples of stuff that's "broken") Paladins have been advertised and what not solely for their elements. Now you want to be better at being neutral? Wrong class, sir. There's plenty of stuff broken in this game, but paladins sucking vs neutral isn't one of them.
Just my 2 cents. Or 5. Idk.
My "rant" had nothing to do with a problem against neutrality. If you read my original post, I specifically said I'm fine with being at only monsters with weaknesses. What I made this thread about is the fact that Holy-weak monsters are not always going to be the best training spots. I want to see the elements more equalized so that I have other options upon the release of future areas with out having to take a major sacrifice of damage. We're already highly limited on which monsters we can fight, I don't like seeing an even greater limit imposed by our own charges.
Fixing Paladins - Hero - 2008-07-23
As for the pianus remark btw, stop killing it twice and then concluding things. If you actively hunt pianus you'll realize both rush and monster magnet books are very common, and are junk for a reason. And you're not "useless" there.
And it seemed like a mini-rant, so I just figured I'd call it that. As for anyone that might've been offended, I didn't mean to offend anyone.
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-07-23
ZartMorder Wrote:What I made this thread about is the fact that Holy-weak monsters are not always going to be the best training spots.
For now it is. Who says it will change?
Fixing Paladins - ZartMorder - 2008-07-23
Devil's Sunrise Wrote:For now it is. Who says it will change?
The fact that the Temple of Time has come out with stronger monsters without any Holy weaknesses is not proof enough for you?
Fixing Paladins - Beaner - 2008-07-23
at least holy charge and blast dont dc you. be happy
Fixing Paladins - DrRusty - 2008-07-23
ZartMorder Wrote:The fact that the Temple of Time has come out with stronger monsters without any Holy weaknesses is not proof enough for you?
have u been keeping up with the temple of time? The last time I read it, they said there are 2 unreleased areas, timeless and holy. In other words, the endgame training map is going to be........... zomgg........ wait for it........... weak to holy :f6: