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What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Deviant - 2009-01-19

DrRusty Wrote:I would like to see BStep at 700% damage, and assassinate at 1000% per hit with the last hit having a 90% critical rate of 200% damage.

and a 500k damage cap =D

1m damage assassinate ftw =D

Lol.


I would also like assassinate to be usable on the boat, it shouldnt even be considered a movement skill, the amount and way it moves you could hardly be beneficial in ANY situation really, you couldnt even go over a tiny gap with it, so why cant I use assassinate on the boat? D:<

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Chameleonic - 2009-01-19

FrozNlite Wrote:By the way, I'd like to address this issue for a lot of people who don't understand Magician training without ultimates. Surprisingly, it's HELLA slower than anything you non-Magicians have normally. Soloing with Demon, Summon, and Single-Target can net us roughly 12-16m exp/hr on 2x at Himes, with similar numbers at Skeles. Throw us in a party, and that figure rises to ~20m exp/hr.

20m exp/hr.

I can get that solo Meteoing pineappling Blue Wyverns.

I dont think so...actually I know for a fact that isnt true.

Only 20 mill an hour....

I'd kill to be able get that with a 2x card and a party! Tongue

Soloing I get 5mill exp an hour at most.

Training with a 1hking AM at Newts I get 8mill and hour doing bottom.

You really dont know how easy and lucky you have it.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Devil - 2009-01-19

Deviant Wrote:Lol.


I would also like assassinate to be usable on the boat, it shouldnt even be considered a movement skill, the amount and way it moves you could hardly be beneficial in ANY situation really, you couldnt even go over a tiny gap with it, so why cant I use assassinate on the boat? D:<
Assassinate doesn't work on the Crog Ship:
> because Dark Sight doesnt work on the boat
> because Dark Sight is disabled in jump quest maps
> because Dark Sight is considered to be an unfair advantage compared to other classes
> because other classes are allowed to 1 hit kill 2 crogs
> because Shadowers are considered overpowered by Nexon

That's why Assassinate doesnt work in Crog map... for real...

[SIZE="2"]Nexon - Epic Failing Reinvented™[/SIZE]

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19

FrozNlite Wrote:By the way, I'd like to address this issue for a lot of people who don't understand Magician training without ultimates. Surprisingly, it's HELLA slower than anything you non-Magicians have normally. Soloing with Demon, Summon, and Single-Target can net us roughly 12-16m exp/hr on 2x at Himes, with similar numbers at Skeles. Throw us in a party, and that figure rises to ~20m exp/hr.

20m exp/hr.

I can get that solo Meteoing pineappling Blue Wyverns.

Believe it or not, Magicians COMPLETELY suck without ultimates the way they are. And while I agree that it makes them solo faster than every other class, you pair ANY other class with an ultimate user, and you're training as fast as possible. I don't understand why there's so much hate on skills that actually BENEFIT you, which is why earlier I said "please don't complain for a passive EXP boost if you're already screaming for ultimates to be removed."

And here's the other issue with removing ultimates: where do you want us to train? Sharks? If you make a new, higher-leveled "Hime"-styled map, but that only appears on 19 channels, guess what. All of the non-Magicians in each server will hog those maps, and Magicians would be kicked out because we just can't kill as fast as you with combos.

20mil exp/hour solo'ing wyverns? Haha, I get 10-12mil exp/hour on 2x solo'ing newties.

So we should HAVE to party magicians? No choice in that? What if there are no magicians available to train with? I should be forced to get sh'it for EXP? I shouldn't be able to go train when I want to because there's no magicians online/available? You're pretty full of yourself to think we WANT to HAVE to party magicians for a decent EXP rate.

You don't want a higher level "Hime-style" map? C'mon, you already get 20mil exp/hr at himes with FD in party, that's only 4-5mil short of my average exp/hour gain at newts with a 1-hitting magician!

I'm not saying that ultimates are a horrible nightmare idea, they just need to be taken back a bit. They need to overall improve the EXP from each high level monster to reflect the lack of ultimates. They also need to stop assuming that everyone wants to party magicians so they can level at a decent rate.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Conciente - 2009-01-19

20mil exp per hour soloing? ... AND YOU ARE COMPLAINING?

With the best party ever(Bishop + BM at Skelegons), I get around 20m exp per hour WITH 2x.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Kaasoljoyyx - 2009-01-19

I doubt he's getting 20m/hr soloing at blue wyrvens. People who train at newties on x2 who can't 1hko get that sort of exp and blue wyrvens are less exp than that. It's prolly like 14~16m/hr on x2

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Eos - 2009-01-19

Kaasoljoyyx Wrote:I doubt he's getting 20m/hr soloing at blue wyrvens. People who train at newties on x2 who can't 1hko get that sort of exp and blue wyrvens are less exp than that. It's prolly like 14~16m/hr on x2

Flawed math.
Just because they can't 1 hit newties and newties are worth more doesn't mean they can't earn more by 1 hitting wyverns.

Which gives you more xp?

20 wyverns a minute at 2500 each (50,000 xp)
or
10 newties at 3600 each? (36,000 xp)

Higher experience per kill does not guarantee better overall xp, it's about volume. If more people could get that through their heads Newties wouldn't be so crowded with everyone thinking that it's the best possible place for them from 80 onward.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Kaasoljoyyx - 2009-01-19

I mean from experience

Haven't timed recently but I 2hko newties and get like 12m/hr, give or take 1m exp to be safe.

At wyrvens, I get like 8 maybe and i 1hko. It was definently slower than newties.

Values are on x1. The spawn at blue wyrvens fails + 2 different spawn sites which change.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Shippo the Fox - 2009-01-19

Devil Wrote:Assassinate doesn't work on the Crog Ship:
> because Dark Sight doesnt work on the boat
> because Dark Sight is disabled in jump quest maps
> because Dark Sight is considered to be an unfair advantage compared to other classes
> because other classes are allowed to 1 hit kill 2 crogs
> because Shadowers are considered overpowered by Nexon

That's why Assassinate doesnt work in Crog map... for real...

[SIZE="2"]Nexon - Epic Failing Reinvented™[/SIZE]

Assassinate doesn't work because its considered a movement skill.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Wolfman - 2009-01-19

I'm just gonna extract part of a post I made on SW regarding why mages should be able to train faster than other jobs -

I wonder how many of you crying for balance have actually considered why things are the way they are. In order for a mage to match the single target damage of another job they have to be about 40+ levels ahead if not more. So its either give them a 1v1 skill on par with other jobs to keep the damage at similar levels uniform with other classes or give them a Mob attack to help them gain the levels they need to be "equal". Mages are generally considered AOE kings hence the Mob attack would be the most logical choice.

Additonally, in the event that a multipart boss is released Mages should be much faster at defeating it as that would be their area of expertise, so this mob attack would need to, without any contention, be able to out damage other jobs when at a similar level. It can't have a damage output that would allow other classes to just plow through the various parts 1 by 1 and end up finishing in the same time that Mages would. Since this is an extremely situational event it balances itself out. Balance does not mean everything is the same, it means that where one entity may be strong in one area and weak in another, another entity can have the exact opposite traits and that in itself would bring about balance.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Flirtini - 2009-01-19

L> bahu/ifrit/eliqu to fly around (like the priests' summon dragon) and actually ATTACK stuff instead of just sitting there and staring at the monsters Biggrin

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - gucci - 2009-01-19

Every 4th job class should get holy symbol skill

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Dusk - 2009-01-19

Digging up on old argument, but both Inferno and Arrow Rain are better than Avenger because of the way they attack, even if they do less damage over time. Bowmasters don't get owned as badly at minimum range, and they don't have to constantly back jumpshot to mob anything. Also, having both skills = much more versatility when mobbing. I still think people fail to see how good Dragon Breath+Inferno would be if we had high level mobbing maps, or if Bowmasters were any good at mobbing in the first place.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19

FrozNlite Wrote:Way much faster for Magicians only? Hun, my 197 DrK friend trains with one Bishop at Newties, and on the bottom can get 30m+ exp/hr on 2x. That's faster than Magicians soloing there if they're 100% 2hkoing.
One Bishop. One ultimate spamming* Bishop.

FrozNlite Wrote:By the way, I'd like to address this issue for a lot of people who don't understand Magician training without ultimates. Surprisingly, it's HELLA slower than anything you non-Magicians have normally. Soloing with Demon, Summon, and Single-Target can net us roughly 12-16m exp/hr on 2x at Himes
At Himes! Ask any other class to train at Himes and they won't even come close. And it's technically 3rd job content. Now double their HP and triple their experience, and you'll end up with really good EXP figures.

FrozNLite Wrote:20m exp/hr.

I can get that solo Meteoing pineappling Blue Wyverns.
Ultimate spamming* at Blue Wyverns.

FrozNLite Wrote:Believe it or not, Magicians COMPLETELY suck without ultimates the way they are.
So why must they be the way they are? I haven't seen a single person in this thread seriously propose that ultimates be removed without buffing anything else about them.

FrozNLite Wrote:And while I agree that it makes them solo faster than every other class, you pair ANY other class with an ultimate user, and you're training as fast as possible.
Oh, but if you can pair an ultimate spammer* with an ultimate spammer*, why would either one even want to train with a non-ultimate partner if they could get much better experience that way?

FrozNLite Wrote:I don't understand why there's so much hate on skills that actually BENEFIT you, which is why earlier I said "please don't complain for a passive EXP boost if you're already screaming for ultimates to be removed."
Because "training as fast as possible" shouldn't be inextricably linked to an attacking skill that 3 out of 12 classes get. Besides, even ultimate spamming* loses to the EXP curve eventually. They're not the solution at all. Higher leveled content is.

FrozNLite Wrote:And here's the other issue with removing ultimates: where do you want us to train? Sharks? If you make a new, higher-leveled "Hime"-styled map, but that only appears on 19 channels, guess what. All of the non-Magicians in each server will hog those maps, and Magicians would be kicked out because we just can't kill as fast as you with combos.
Correction: you with combos can't kill as fast as you ultimate spamming*.

FrozNLite Wrote:So if you don't like how Magicians are currently built, you need to understand you only have two options to fix them. Either (1) you keep ultimates the way they are understanding it's essentially the only decent way we can train
No, you do have a perfectly decent way to train. It's just that you also have a much faster way to train that completely overshadows it.

FrozNLite Wrote:or (2) you remove ultimates (or nerf them somehow), and thus have to boost all 3 skills (demon, summon, single target) in both attack power and casting speed, AND you have to make enough flat, "Hime"-styled maps for both non-Magicians and Magicians.

Ideas can be great only when they're fully thought through.
Unless I'm missing something, most people in this thread are proposing something along the lines of that.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - TamilTiger1 - 2009-01-19

Avenge Wrote:20mil exp/hour solo'ing wyverns? Haha, I get 10-12mil exp/hour on 2x solo'ing newties.

So we should HAVE to party magicians? No choice in that? What if there are no magicians available to train with? I should be forced to get sh'it for EXP? I shouldn't be able to go train when I want to because there's no magicians online/available? You're pretty full of yourself to think we WANT to HAVE to party magicians for a decent EXP rate.

You don't want a higher level "Hime-style" map? C'mon, you already get 20mil exp/hr at himes with FD in party, that's only 4-5mil short of my average exp/hour gain at newts with a 1-hitting magician!

I'm not saying that ultimates are a horrible nightmare idea, they just need to be taken back a bit. They need to overall improve the EXP from each high level monster to reflect the lack of ultimates. They also need to stop assuming that everyone wants to party magicians so they can level at a decent rate.


Why don't you think of the other side?

At bosses if we aren't taken with main attackers (NLs/BM/Warriors), we're forced to stay there for hell of a lot longer or even fail the run... its your own question directed back at you... "so we should HAVE to party NLs/BMs/Warriors at bosses" for successfull or fastest run? Even if there are lots of other classes to go bossing with, they don't accept arch mages they would rather take any other classes. Even smaller bosses like pap, i remember back at 3rd job magicians had to look for parties A LOT LONGER than most of these other classes just to go pap. Now that they suddenly surpass everyone else in just ONE thing and everyone is against it lol.

Obviously since we can't boss effectively, there has to be a better training method which is the ultimates. What you're saying is, its ok for arch mages to "be treated like sh'it at bosses" but its ok for other classes to dominate bosses and they should also have simliar training methods like arch mages?

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - FrozNlite - 2009-01-19

TamilTiger1 Wrote:Why don't you think of the other side?

At bosses if we aren't taken with main attackers (NLs/BM/Warriors), we're forced to stay there for hell of a lot longer or even fail the run... its your own question directed back at you... "so we should HAVE to party NLs/BMs/Warriors at bosses" for successfull or fastest run? Even if there are lots of other classes to go bossing with, they don't accept arch mages they would rather take any other classes. Even smaller bosses like pap, i remember back at 3rd job magicians had to look for parties A LOT LONGER than most of these other classes just to go pap. Now that they suddenly surpass everyone else in just ONE thing and everyone is against it lol.

Obviously since we can't boss effectively, there has to be a better training method which is the ultimates. What you're saying is, its ok for arch mages to "be treated like sh'it at bosses" but its ok for other classes to dominate bosses and they should also have simliar training methods like arch mages?

Exactly what I was going to say in response.

To everyone else who replied to me:

1.) Do I know how lucky I have it? When I have non-Magician Shadowers telling me they can get 26m exp/hr with 2x at Newties in a party, or non-Magician DrKs telling me they can get 30m exp/hr with 2x at Newties in a party, while I get 28m exp/hr with 2x there soloing, 30m exp/hr in a party, what am I going to think? What I see is two different sides of data here, one side saying your training is crap no matter what as non-Magicians, the other side saying it's okay. Don't yell at me for speaking out when I may be extremely privileged if all I know is that I train just as fast as non-Magicians.

2.) Lol? What is this issue of "moan moan so now I HAVE to party Magicians to train as fast as possible?" Well, yea, sorry, that's how the game's designed. Do I always wait to train until I get a Bishop for Skeles because I know it's the fastest? Yea, I do. If you're a person who is going to train on 4 2x cards a day so you can hit 200, then I'm sure you should be used to not getting the best exp/hr possible all the time, and that's something you have to deal with, not complain about. Just like how I deal with the fact that if 4/6 NLs on an HT run die or dc, I've just wasted hours and apples for a run that's destined to fail.

And "oh pomegranate I can't find a Magician training partner for my 2x time to rant on SP?" The figures two years ago of the amount of gMS players playing Magicians were staggering, and they have only grown since then. Back then, over 1/3 of the gMS population played a Magician, and I'm sure by now, especially with the Bishop bandwagon, it's closer to 40%, if not at it was back then.

People, as of 7:14 pm PST January 19th, there are 20,739 4th jobbers in gMS. While a few are hackers, the great portion are all legit, hard-grinding players who need one another to train. So if 30-40% of them are Magicians, I'm wondering how in the world non-Magicians can't find parties with these people when they need them.

And before you say "I train at the dead of night," I'll just ask if you've gone through the rankings before like I have looking for a training partner. As in, have you personally, when you're about to train, spent 30-60 minutes going through your servers rankings, from people levels 120-200, whispering anyone with a Magician symbol next to their IGN? You'd be surprised how many people you can find willing to train, and how many training partnerships you can forge in no time at all.

So you need to find a Magician to train with in order to get the best exp possible. Big whoop, we all do, myself included. Go ahead and grumble about it a little bit, but if you're going to sit on your ass complaining rather than spending the time hunting for a training partner, a lot of us won't care about what you have to say.

This is essentially going back to what Tamil said but I think the issue between Magicians and non-Magicians is that the pseudo-balance we have already in-game is needing to rely on each other. Seeing as how this thread has erupted into back and forth heated arguing (and I'm not denying that I had a part in it), I can see that Nexon's attempts at balancing classes through teamwork were lost from the get-go to a gMS population that's too immature to handle them.

So can we stop the peaching? Non-magicians, you need Magicians to spam ultimates at Leafre training spots to train at your optimal speeds, and Magicians, you need non-Magicians to be able to successfully complete a boss run to get skills and equips you need. Once we come to understand this fundamental fact of MapleStory class design, arguments like these wont happen.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - chuko - 2009-01-20

I can't help but laugh at the people who want to actually make hurricane a better skill than it already is.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-20

TamilTiger1 Wrote:Why don't you think of the other side?

At bosses if we aren't taken with main attackers (NLs/BM/Warriors), we're forced to stay there for hell of a lot longer or even fail the run... its your own question directed back at you... "so we should HAVE to party NLs/BMs/Warriors at bosses" for successfull or fastest run? Even if there are lots of other classes to go bossing with, they don't accept arch mages they would rather take any other classes. Even smaller bosses like pap, i remember back at 3rd job magicians had to look for parties A LOT LONGER than most of these other classes just to go pap. Now that they suddenly surpass everyone else in just ONE thing and everyone is against it lol.

Obviously since we can't boss effectively, there has to be a better training method which is the ultimates. What you're saying is, its ok for arch mages to "be treated like sh'it at bosses" but its ok for other classes to dominate bosses and they should also have simliar training methods like arch mages?

Do I get great EXP from bossing? No. Irrelevant.

FrozNlite Wrote:wall of text

Most of the content of this post is arrogance and hints of personal attacks.

Mages have never been a bossing class, never going to be a bossing class. Even at 200, they're not a bossing class. What would you argue to this? "Night Lords aren't a training class"?? Night Lords were built for solo'ing, mages weren't, yet mages can get at least double the EXP a NL gets solo. "Go make a magician for faster levels!" Maybe I should go make a mage so I can level fast but be good at nothing else.

FrozNlite Wrote:While a few are hackers, the great portion are all legit, hard-grinding players who need one another to train.

People who leech to 120 + and 4th job magicians don't know what the f'uck "hard-grinding" is. Standing in one spot while watching TV or AFK'ing on a rope for however long definitely doesn't cut it.

FrozNlite Wrote:I can see that Nexon's attempts at balancing classes through teamwork were lost from the get-go to a gMS population that's too immature to handle them.

You're right. Magicians destroy this "teamwork". Because they kill half the map in 1-3 hits. Not much room left for a team.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - FrozNlite - 2009-01-20

Avenge Wrote:Mages have never been a bossing class, never going to be a bossing class. Even at 200, they're not a bossing class. What would you argue to this? "Night Lords aren't a training class"?? Night Lords were built for solo'ing, mages weren't, yet mages can get at least double the EXP a NL gets solo. "Go make a magician for faster levels!" Maybe I should go make a mage so I can level fast but be good at nothing else.

Well, yea. That's kind of how this game is played, as I'm sure you know.

Avenge Wrote:People who leech to 120 + and 4th job magicians don't know what the f'uck "hard-grinding" is. Standing in one spot while watching TV or AFK'ing on a rope for however long definitely doesn't cut it.

Of course; that's a great description for the new generation. But there are a lot of people, myself included, who know what hard grinding is like. I/Ls at Vikings for 40 levels, F/Ps at Sharks for 40 levels, Priests at Grims for 40 levels, etc., is what people who know how to play their characters did in the past. Not a lot of people are left like that, sadly Sad.

Avenge Wrote:You're right. Magicians destroy this "teamwork". Because they kill half the map in 1-3 hits. Not much room left for a team.

If I'm arrogant then you're ignorant, and thanks for again for digging up the argument I was trying to reconcile with that comment. The "personal attacks" in my "wall of text" weren't directed at anyone specifically until someone did something they said, such as yourself. So now they are directed at you because your own words made it so. GG.

The teamwork comes at bosses, where people needing Resurrection look to Bishops for help and Magicians looking for success in killing certain HT parts, etc., look for high DPS ranged classes for help. The fact that LOLFP LOLIL LOLBISHOP even exists is because we suck so hard at bosses, the one deciding ground in this game because every other class wants to ignore training, where they lose to Magicians. Even in training, we can only kill half the map in a few hits, and soloing a Skele map is rather crappy exp/hr compared to training with a party. So we still need help on the other half, and since 30-40% of gMS is Magicians, the majority of the time they're not all training with each other. In fact, I think it's usually the other way around, that I'm always whispering Bishops to train who are already with a non-Magician at Skeles.

So again, maybe Khaini is different from all other servers, but I don't see a lot of what people claim goes on in other servers there. People don't complain, they train like hell, and they party each other all the time regardless of class and map.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Stereo - 2009-01-20

FrozNlite Wrote:Even in training, we can only kill half the map in a few hits, and soloing a Skele map is rather crappy exp/hr compared to training with a party.

Yeah, especially if you're a class who can't kill half the map in a few hits and has to actually train.