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This was nothing more than a friendly debate until TS started name-calling for no apparent reason. There's a difference between disproving someone's ideas because they make no logical basis and attacking someone personally (ad-hominem), directly. And again, it was a friendly debate. I'll leave it at that and move on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaffei4Lunch
Fire-Poison Archmage:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 5170%/s 4947%/s 4610%/s 4272%/s 3597%/s Three Target 15377%/s 14708%/s 13715%/s 12717%/s 10730%/s Six Target 30302%/s 28981%/s 26982%/s 24987%/s 21025%/s
Ice-Lightning Archmage:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 3994%/s 3740%/s 3359%/s 2979%/s 2218%/s Three Target 11979%/s 11219%/s 10081%/s 8939%/s 6655%/s Six Target 21027%/s 19715%/s 17742%/s 15774%/s 11837%/s
Bishop:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 2667%/s 2471%/s 2175%/s 1878%/s 1294%/s Three Target 8004%/s 7415%/s 6532%/s 5647%/s 3882%/s Six Target 12909%/s 11928%/s 10455%/s 8985%/s 6041%/s
Same constraints as original OP, except this more accurately reflects how casting buffs affects DPS. Also found some evidence (thanks to Locked) to prove that Mist Eruption is actually 1.35^(x-2) multiplier (at the least 1.35^x as opposed to 1 + 0.35x). If you have higher than 20000 in your range and manage all these DoTs listed (lower when you consider criticals and other character's DoTs), you will achieve lower DPS. Haven't really tried to explore this more to see what the threshold is for an I/L to be better DPS than an F/P due to the damage range limitations, but there should be a point where I/L > F/P.
It also appears that my original table did not actually account for Booster for Bishops. This has been corrected.
I've also included each class's respective summons, working under the assumption they are unaffected by any buffs, deal their full damage, and attack at a rate of 3030ms. If there is any issue about this, please feel free to correct me.
To note, I/Ls and Bishops cannot hit six monsters with their regular skills. Big Bang is not a suitable replacement to hit six monsters.
oh lols, totally forgot about reset. I'll agree that BaMs need a slight boost, but not enough to put em on par with FP/IL (not implying that you want that either). They've got craptons of utility, so slightly lower damage (should) come with the territory.Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTang
Also, oh my god evan's single target is ridiculous. Also could you add the damage to 6 targets for Evan and BM for direct comparative purposes. I'm aware that it would be linear between 3 and 8, but for those who don't feel like doing the calculation... it might help.
I really hope they do well addressing how far behind adventurer Mages are now with the next update.
1.2.408
Fire-Poison Archmage
Note that while Mist Eruption did get a damage increase, it fundamentally does nothing since the damage cap exists. If we were to compare the buffs without including the one Mist Eruption received:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 6516%/s 6213%/s 5755%/s 5297%/s 4380%/s Three Target 19375%/s 18466%/s 17116%/s 15761%/s 13059%/s Six Target 38228%/s 36433%/s 33718%/s 31008%/s 25623%/s
Spoiler
I'm looking into testing with a theoretical range and determining what the differences are when the damage cap is included, but I doubt it will be finished any time soon since I just started (like one second ago).
Ice-Lightning Archmage
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 5330%/s 4980%/s 4454%/s 3930%/s 2879%/s Three Target 15988%/s 14940%/s 13369%/s 11791%/s 8638%/s Six Target 27921%/s 26116%/s 23401%/s 20695%/s 15279%/s
Bishop
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% Single Target 3452%/s 3192%/s 2805%/s 2416%/s 1639%/s Three Target 10356%/s 9580%/s 8416%/s 7251%/s 4917%/s Six Target 17153%/s 15828%/s 13849%/s 11870%/s 7905%/s
Genesis proves to increase DPS by 20%/s interestingly enough. Beneficial if there are more monsters too.
With Teleport:
Spoiler
Not sure what to do about Evan's and Teleport. I've always just not included it since the range is so short, most people don't bother to try (especially when hitting more than 1 monster, though with Glacier Chains this is feasible), but in the case of Evans, Illusion's delay is shorter than Teleport's, so I have no idea if it's possible to Telecast effectively, rather than slowing things down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTang
At least f/p archmages are now close to evan's dpm on mobs with 70%+ def but the % def numbers for i/l are abysmal.
I hope they do a 180 and make some serious adjustments in the next kmst.
I don't think they will change much. Most of this changes seem to be put there because they felt like it. Ice Lightings really got screwed up, but I'm happy with it since they have a 4hit skill, while Fire/Poisons got a 3hit Skill.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abysseon
I'm amazed that Fire/Poisons > Evans in mobbing. I guess that could be called balanced.
Like I said earlier in the thread, there is a point where I/Ls are stronger than F/Ps due to the damage cap and the %/s is severely misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abysseon
F/Ps have the luxury of having the same outrageous %/s for single target as multitarget. If Illusion was also Evan's mobbing skill, you would see similar things, but again, Mist Eruption's massive amount of damage skews this view quite a bit. Working on trying to adjust this to be less misleading.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliseo
But it makes f/p a good choice for not very funded people.
Fire-Poison:
Ice-Lightning:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% 1 Target: 6799%/s 6490%/s 6022%/s 5553%/s 4617%/s 2 Target: 13508%/s 12887%/s 11965%/s 11038%/s 9192%/s 3 Target: 20225%/s 19305%/s 17912%/s 16522%/s 13761%/s 4 Target: 26745%/s 25532%/s 23719%/s 21866%/s 18191%/s 5 Target: 33355%/s 31784%/s 29501%/s 27209%/s 22619%/s 6 Target: 39899%/s 38079%/s 35281%/s 32561%/s 27057%/s
Bishop:
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% 1 Target: 6146%/s 5733%/s 5115%/s 4498%/s 3262%/s 2 Target: 12289%/s 11467%/s 10235%/s 8997%/s 6525%/s 3 Target: 18440%/s 17204%/s 15348%/s 13496%/s 9789%/s 4 Target: 24456%/s 22809%/s 20342%/s 17868%/s 12925%/s 5 Target: 30481%/s 28418%/s 25327%/s 22245%/s 16064%/s 6 Target: 32086%/s 29976%/s 26801%/s 23619%/s 17264%/s
Defense: 0% 10% 25% 40% 70% 1 Target: 4256%/s 3935%/s 3448%/s 2962%/s 2002%/s 2 Target: 8514%/s 7870%/s 6904%/s 5936%/s 4006%/s 3 Target: 12769%/s 11804%/s 10354%/s 8907%/s 6010%/s 4 Target: 16789%/s 15504%/s 13550%/s 11612%/s 7778%/s 5 Target: 20820%/s 19204%/s 16780%/s 14351%/s 9550%/s 6 Target: 24843%/s 22909%/s 20007%/s 17115%/s 11289%/s
Notable changes:
F/P: Buffed Mist Eruption. Misleadingly strong. etc.
I/L: Both Chain Lightning and Glacier Chain hit six times now, much better damage, and less likely to cap out.
Bishop: Angel Ray got a third hit, hits up to six monsters, Genesis is no longer useful for DPS.
Just realised I had teleport on and I have to leave for work.Fixed.
What's the main factors for the high gap in low def % between evans and archmages?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTang
At least i/l have a 6 hit cl so its not so bad that evans are still stronger.
Sucks for f/p though.
I thought they would at least increase mist eruption to 10 or 15 hits...
Evans do a lot of damage. They have a lot less defense ignore though. Illusion itself only has 20%, and they get no other sources. On the other hand, Archmages all have a global 20% ignore for every skill. Fire-Poison have damage over time which ignores defense, and Mist Eruption which contributes a lot to their %/s. Ice-Lightning have Glacial Chain and Ice Demon for damage over time, and Glacial Chain's attack itself has 40% ignore. Defense just hurts Evan's damage more than it hurts Archmages, but they still do more damage, though now in the highest echelons of damage whoring, Ice-Lightning will have the advantage with the capacity to hit 6 damage caps every 690ms compared to Evan's 4 damage caps every 510ms.
Yes, in the future, dps will be measured not in %/s but in damage caps per second, with the character who can do the most hits per second (Mechanics) be the winningest.
So the "misleadingly strong" for f/p and i/l having the advantage over evans in dpm only occur in cases of extreme funding?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeTang
For the average players, the dpm comparison would be:
1. Evan
2. F/P
3. I/L
4. Battle Mage
5. Bishop
and the dpm comparison for those who want to spend $$$ on their characters (potential damage cap scenario):
1. I/L
2. Battle Mage
3. Evan
4. F/P
5. Bishop
?
I think the cap on F/p with eruption is like less than 20k range. which isnt ALOT of $$$ compared to others. (that need like 100k range to hit cap). and then if u have a staff with % boss... hitting cap with ease. But keeping that inmind the #1 non funded class is F/p and would be pretty dam strong compared to others
Updated Evans to include the casting of all their buffs. They have really slow buffs. Didn't include Slow because it doesn't work on bosses. Added Flame Wheel's 6% DoT. lol'ed.
Evans do more hits per second than Battle Mages.Quote:
Originally Posted by Abysseon
Best unfunded mage class seems perfect for me, whenever I decide to come back to maple.
Probably once I'm back home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZKhKwA8tc0
The damage is sick..
BAM speed is currently at Normal(6) right? Could include values for BAMs at Faster(2) and Fast(5) (after Booster/Yellow Aura)? Just wondering if an Elemental Staff beats an Empress Staff with the full set.
BAM speed was Normal (6) + Booster + Yellow Aura = Fast (3). Updated with charts for Normal (6) to Fastest (2). Might update other Magician tables the same way later.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bribery
I'm fine with the way Evans are now. Hope the mages are left alone for a while now, except Bishops.