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+--- Thread: What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? (/showthread.php?tid=7441)
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:Plenty? I count one, Arrow Rain, which must be so godly in comparison because it's 10% stronger.
Bowmasters weren't made for close combat to begin with nor mobs. They're one-on-one-from-range class. Mages are the perfect alternative, and are only made for mobs. Thieves and most warriors are all-round, with both having advantages and disadvantages at some places.
Compared to most, if not all other mob skills, avenger is pomegranate. Have you ever played a hermit, and I'm not talking about private servers with perfect 10%'d pomegranate, 50 rebirths and supplying your own SE, Holy Charge and Combo all-in-one doing 3,000,000 damage per avenger hit.
Avenger. Is. pomegranate.
Russt Wrote:your Avenger is better than Brandish
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Providence - 2009-01-19
Hero Wrote:Bowmasters weren't made for close combat to begin with nor mobs. They're one-on-one-from-range class. Mages are the perfect alternative, and are only made for mobs. Thieves and most warriors are all-round, with both having advantages and disadvantages at some places.The only time I've ever seen Avenger used effectively was at Gobies, and even then, that wasn't a Night Lord. It's relatively slow, weak and has an odd area of effect (basically, straight in front of you).
Compared to most, if not all other mob skills, avenger is pomegranate. Have you ever played a hermit, and I'm not talking about private servers with perfect 10%'d pomegranate, 50 rebirths and supplying your own SE, Holy Charge and Combo all-in-one doing 3,000,000 damage per avenger hit.
Avenger. Is. pomegranate.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Newties = 1 inch inbetween each of the immobile mobs, extremely easy to punch. Avenger is useless at skele's except to mob them.And Arrow Rain is so much better.
I'm not doubting that NLs are rather screwed training-wise, but Avenger itself really is nothing to complain about. If you want to complain, complain about TT, not Avenger.
Hero Wrote:Bowmasters weren't made for close combat to begin with nor mobs. They're one-on-one-from-range class.You could say the same about NLs.
Hero Wrote:Compared to most, if not all other mob skills, avenger is pomegranate. Have you ever played a hermit, and I'm not talking about private servers with perfect 10%'d pomegranate, 50 rebirths and supplying your own SE, Holy Charge and Combo all-in-one doing 3,000,000 damage per avenger hit.No, I haven't played a hermit.
Avenger. Is. pomegranate.
I've played a sniper, whose Iron Arrow has a smaller vertical range than Avenger and who doesn't have FJ. And I wouldn't say it's the worst 2nd job mob skill..
Hero Wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHANice out of context.
Providence Wrote:It's relatively slow, weak and has an odd area of effect (basically, straight in front of you).About half of all attacking skills hit straight in front of you, one way or another o-o
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - OmfgItzKhoi - 2009-01-19
PeePeeAyeDeeKay Wrote:"10 hit Panic": Panic hits a target upto 10 times depending on how many orbs are charged. One additional hit for every orb.
"5 hit Coma" Coma hits 6 targets upto 5 times depending on how many orbs are charged. One additional hit for every 2 orbs.
"10 hit Panic" and "5 hit Coma" arent new skills but bonuses from Adv Combo in addition to the 2 orbs per one attack chance and damage boost. Adds the Combo back into Combo Attack I guess.
i love that idea >,>......... when i first read teh thread starter's idea of making advanced combo have a more "combo"-like effect, i was like... what did you have in mind? cause everything i can think of would make heros more complicated and to me, that means fail. But your idea is actually really cool, assuming u meant panic/coma would be weakened a little but still enough to overpower brandish as a finisher move if advanced combo is charged. but ultimately, brandish + rush is already a freaking AWESOME combination, why mess with a formula that works?
dark knights should get a new attack animation, something that would make them interesting for 4th job until the end. Honestly, because DKs use the same attack animation from lvl 70-> the end, they get a bit boring, most of my friends only get on their 4th job DKs to do Zruns as teh party HBer. And whoever said that Beserk should be 300% instead of 200% is just really overpowering the DK class over everything else. Like i dont have it yet, but i think monster magnet is pretty dumb when u already have Rush.... maybe replace that with a new attack for DK
i dont think anyone cares who deals more damage in the "long run" with BW and MM when it's already hard enough to form a single HT party on some servers. against normal monsters, to each their own, but in boss battles, how many legit HT runs happens a week =/ (speaking for bellocan perspective)
o0o0o, and a lot of the suggestions were to basically overpower whatever character class people mentioned. bad juju
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Xombie - 2009-01-19
Hero Wrote:HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
LOL at you too. You didn't even read.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Providence Wrote:The only time I've ever seen Avenger used effectively was at Gobies, and even then, that wasn't a Night Lord. It's relatively slow, weak and has an odd area of effect (basically, straight in front of you).
With avenger you need to stand exactly on the right spot or you're going to end up punching enemies or not hitting the entire mob, or simply not hitting anything at all. Using range as an excuse is bullcrap, solely for the reason that it doesn't home towards the enemies like normal stars and you need to be infront of them - like all classes except mages, who can happily-ever-after stand on a safe platform while eating cheese dorritos with their other hand while pressing their ultimate button and after their multiple 2x cards end complain about how other classes are better on the internet while they ask their mother to fill the bathtub and cry themselves to sleep afterwards.
...right.
Anyway, avenger blows. Also, stop considering SP with it. Bowmasters have SE, but you don't take that into account solely because other classes can have it too. Taking that in consideration, we might aswell start talking about weapon attack. e_e
@ Xombie/Russt
Okay, let me take it into "context."
Russt Wrote:Range. Most important 'ease of use' factor by far. Taking that into account, your Avenger is better than Brandish, ACB, Energy Blast, Band of Thieves, etc etc.
Still can't stop giggling. The 'ease of use' is still nothing more then pressing a button, and since maplestory isn't coded that extremely difficult, almost every single mob skill is simply vertical and will hit everything infront of them. Brandish has almost the exact half the range Avenger has, but simply because it hits a little further doesn't make it better in ANY way. Just because you take one other thing into account, you seem to completely ignore the rest of the factors.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:And Arrow Rain is so much better.
I've played a sniper, whose Iron Arrow has a smaller vertical range than Avenger and who doesn't have FJ. And I wouldn't say it's the worst 2nd job mob skill..
Nice out of context.
Arrow Rain is better. Any mob skill that doesn't do 1 damage due to a mob being too close is better.
Again, you try to switch factors for mob DPS. Brb, let me go FJ from one side of a mob to the other and see if I get more EXP!!
In or out of context, Avenger is far worse than brandish. I guess you had some mental picture in your head of a Night Lord and a Hero standing FURTHER from your mob of super snails, while the NL blasted away with Avenger and the Hero stood there crying helplessly.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:I guess you had some mental picture in your head of a Night Lord and a Hero standing FURTHER from your mob of super snails, while the NL blasted away with Avenger and the Hero stood there crying helplessly.Imagine your punching damage and your star damage are switched around. Have fun.
Now you want your range back, don't you?
Hero Wrote:Anyway, avenger blows. Also, stop considering SP with it. Bowmasters have SE, but you don't take that into account solely because other classes can have it too. Taking that in consideration, we might aswell start talking about weapon attack. e_eI counted SE
Okay, Avenger is bad. Happy now? It still stands that it's a 3rd job skill and definitely not the worst compared to other 3rd job skills. So happens that NLs (just like BMs and DrKs) don't get better mobbing options in their 4th job arsenal and are pretty much stuck with what they already had, and NLs (just like BMs) are better single attackers to make up for it.
And I do agree that it doesn't do you much good while training. Satisfied? Now let's get back on topic so you can propose ideas on how to make it so it does do you good.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - JoeTang - 2009-01-19
Right, because punching a monster, having it MISS you, and then being able to pineappleing jump away far enough that it won't hit you before it dies is so much pineappleing pomegranatetier than having a mob skill that requires you to be so close to a monster that if you hit it, it'll walk up to you and pineapple a new hole in your intestines while you're trying to walk away at a pace slower than they chase.
Multihit Arrow Rain/Eruption would have been a good improvement. Better than Hamstring and Blind. Though those two do have uses, they're very few and in between.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:I counted SE
Okay, Avenger is bad. Happy now? It still stands that it's a 3rd job skill and definitely not the worst compared to other 3rd job skills. So happens that NLs (just like BMs and DrKs) don't get better mobbing options in their 4th job arsenal and are pretty much stuck with what they already had, and NLs (just like BMs) are better single attackers to make up for it.
And I do agree that it doesn't do you much good while training. Satisfied? Now let's get back on topic so you can propose ideas on how to make it so it does do you good.
It's still next to useless, a shared last spot. Only reason they have it is to kill off weak things like slimes for quests, and mobbing enemies. Imagen using Heal to train somewhere during 15x - not like you have many alternatives right now, but hey - That's basically what it must feel like for them. Shitty.
kthx
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Hero Wrote:It's still next to useless, a shared last spot. Only reason they have it is to kill off weak things like slimes for quests, and mobbing enemies. Imagen using Heal to train somewhere during 15x - not like you have many alternatives right now, but hey - That's basically what it must feel like for them. pomegranatety.And I don't see many Bishops complaining about how Heal sucks as a mob skill during 15x.
kthx
It does its job decently well in 2nd job, and - what a surprise! - it's a 2nd job skill.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:And I don't see many Bishops complaining about how Heal sucks as a mob skill during 15x.
It does its job decently well in 2nd job, and - what a surprise! - it's a 2nd job skill.
That's because they get alternatives later on. Hermits don't, yet when they use that very argument you're using to excuse Heal, it's not OK since their mob skill isn't "all that bad".
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - DrRusty - 2009-01-19
I would like to see BStep at 700% damage, and assassinate at 1000% per hit with the last hit having a 90% critical rate of 200% damage.
and a 500k damage cap =D
1m damage assassinate ftw =D
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Xombie - 2009-01-19
Hero Wrote:Still can't stop giggling. The 'ease of use' is still nothing more then pressing a button, and since maplestory isn't coded that extremely difficult, almost every single mob skill is simply vertical and will hit everything infront of them. Brandish has almost the exact half the range Avenger has, but simply because it hits a little further doesn't make it better in ANY way. Just because you take one other thing into account, you seem to completely ignore the rest of the factors.
He simply meant the range of avenger was better. NOT the whole skill was better than Brandish. Context?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
JoeTang Wrote:Right, because punching a monster, having it MISS you, and then being able to pineappleing jump away far enough that it won't hit you before it dies is so much pineappleing pomegranatetier than having a mob skill that requires you to be so close to a monster that if you hit it, it'll walk up to you and pineapple a new hole in your intestines while you're trying to walk away at a pace slower than they chase.
Multihit Arrow Rain/Eruption would have been a good improvement. Better than Hamstring and Blind. Though those two do have uses, they're very few and in between.
I get hit 1 out of 3-4 times at newties. I don't have godmode as you (and plenty of other people) like to assume for argument's sake. I primarily like to train with Avenger at newties because it's faster, but my positioning has to be just right to hit all 3 of my targets. If I stand too close, I punch. If I stand too far, I don't hit all 3 which makes it not worth using avenger.
Xombie Wrote:He simply meant the range of avenger was better. NOT the whole skill was better than Brandish. Context?
Because the distance between the player and the monster is where the top DPS resides!
Russt Wrote:Imagine your punching damage and your star damage are switched around. Have fun.
Imagine heal damaging your party but healing your enemies@@@@
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Xombie Wrote:He simply meant the range of avenger was better. NOT the whole skill was better than Brandish. Context?
I think he knows what he meant, and considering he didn't say anything about that, you're wrong.
Hell, look at it;
Range. Most important 'ease of use' factor by far. Taking that into account, your Avenger is better than Brandish, ACB, Energy Blast, Band of Thieves, etc etc.
Okay let me make it more simple maybe
[SIZE="4"]Range. Taking that into account[/SIZE]
Need a hint? Ok.
[SIZE="6"]Taking that into account[/SIZE]
clear now mebbe?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - »-Chris-> - 2009-01-19
JoeTang Wrote:Inferno: 190% Average damage, 285% With AdvantageUmm... Charge blow?
Blizzard: 140% Damage if you max it, 210% with Advantage
Band of Thieves: 210% Damage
Dragon Fury: 250%
Charge Blow: 250%
Avenger + Shadow Partner: 370% Average damage
Well, first you get advanced charge blow which boost it to 350%. Well, I suppose your including SP you might as well include holy charge. If you include that, might as well go for elemental weakness too. I'm quite sure it's over that now.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Imagine heal damaging your party but healing your enemies@@@@Now if I could only force people to accept party invites...
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - FrozNlite - 2009-01-19
Cyanne Wrote:The problems with ultimates are that they make archmages and bishops train way faster than other classes and that they're dull to use for training. Honestly, spamming an ultimate in one spot for hours on end is extremely boring, but it's a waste of time to use anything else because ultimate training is just that much faster. They also discourage partying because it's tough to find a party member that will not actually slow your exp rate down, especially since ultimates obliterate entire screens at a time. Big bang doesn't have these problems, mostly because of the smaller range.
For bishops, they aren't supposed to be stronger than marksmen or any other class because they're mostly a support class, which is why they get holy symbol during training. And by forward-piercing, I just meant an iron arrow/avenger/torpedo-style attack. Besides, even if they were to be as strong as marksmen, they don't have the necessary mob control skills like dragon breath and freeze to be able to train as efficiently anyways.
Way much faster for Magicians only? Hun, my 197 DrK friend trains with one Bishop at Newties, and on the bottom can get 30m+ exp/hr on 2x. That's faster than Magicians soloing there if they're 100% 2hkoing.
By the way, I'd like to address this issue for a lot of people who don't understand Magician training without ultimates. Surprisingly, it's HELLA slower than anything you non-Magicians have normally. Soloing with Demon, Summon, and Single-Target can net us roughly 12-16m exp/hr on 2x at Himes, with similar numbers at Skeles. Throw us in a party, and that figure rises to ~20m exp/hr.
20m exp/hr.
I can get that solo Meteoing pineappling Blue Wyverns.
Believe it or not, Magicians COMPLETELY suck without ultimates the way they are. And while I agree that it makes them solo faster than every other class, you pair ANY other class with an ultimate user, and you're training as fast as possible. I don't understand why there's so much hate on skills that actually BENEFIT you, which is why earlier I said "please don't complain for a passive EXP boost if you're already screaming for ultimates to be removed."
And here's the other issue with removing ultimates: where do you want us to train? Sharks? If you make a new, higher-leveled "Hime"-styled map, but that only appears on 19 channels, guess what. All of the non-Magicians in each server will hog those maps, and Magicians would be kicked out because we just can't kill as fast as you with combos.
So if you don't like how Magicians are currently built, you need to understand you only have two options to fix them. Either (1) you keep ultimates the way they are understanding it's essentially the only decent way we can train, or (2) you remove ultimates (or nerf them somehow), and thus have to boost all 3 skills (demon, summon, single target) in both attack power and casting speed, AND you have to make enough flat, "Hime"-styled maps for both non-Magicians and Magicians.
Ideas can be great only when they're fully thought through.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Eos - 2009-01-19
FrozNlite Wrote:Way much faster for Magicians only?
Yes. Way faster. Observe actual ranking data.
Click to view Average XP gain per member of a given class in Mardia over level 100 by month
![[Image: ClassXPComparison.png]](http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo177/eos367/MapleStats/ClassXPComparison.png)
Click to view Average XP gain per member of a given class in Mardia over level 120 by month
![[Image: Class4thJobXPComparison.png]](http://i373.photobucket.com/albums/oo177/eos367/MapleStats/Class4thJobXPComparison.png)
And keep in mind, this includes the partnerships you speak of. If mages were nerfed the other classes would dip a bit too, but even with us partnering we grossly outpower the other classes in sheer experience throughput.