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+--- Thread: What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? (/showthread.php?tid=7441)
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Dusk Wrote:I don't agree with the removal of ultimates, I just think there should be a 5 second cooldown on them. CL's damage reduction has been cut in KMST and it should serve as a powerful mob skill now.5 second cooldown on ultimates wouldn't really work out. Either you just stand in one spot and time your ultimates but otherwise train exactly the same as before, or they don't get used most of the time because there aren't enough monsters to hit with them.
IMO, 15 seconds out of 60 of auto ultimate spammage (aka my lingering map effect) is a better idea. Set up your Genesis, then Improved-Teleport to another region of the map, and rip away with Holy Shield (lol) + AR till the minute cooldown is up, then Gene again and go to the other end.
But, I'd like to propose a change to my proposed change.
Genesis: Remove entirely and replace with a passive debuff applied to all the bishops' attacks that reduces avoid and weapon defense. At maxed level, -50% defense and avoid at a 100% rate.
Avenge Wrote:Where's my ultimate for having a hard time getting 1-12x?! I even have the worst mob skill in-game!Avenger + Shadow Partner is not the worst mob skill.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Stereo - 2009-01-19
The real problem with the party system is that classes are just so unbalanced that partying doesn't work.
Given a 2 person equal level party that gives 10% boost, in order to get better than regular (100%) rates...
They get 66% from their own kills. So they need to get more than 34% from party member, out of a 44% if they killed at the same rate. That is, 77%. So party members can kill at most 20% different in speed, or it's just not worth it.
When ArchMages get 2-3x the solo exp of other classes, they're obviously not just 20% faster, so partying does not work.
Really the main thing is bringing the exp rates into that margin. 20% faster is still pretty significant advantage, but it wouldn't make them better off soloing.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Harrisonized - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:Genesis: Remove entirely and replace with a passive debuff applied to all the bishops' attacks that reduces avoid and weapon defense. At maxed level, -50% defense and avoid at a 100% rate.What the heck? Why would anyone want to even max that?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Eos - 2009-01-19
Stereo Wrote:Given a 2 person equal level party that gives 10% boost, in order to get better than regular (100%) rates...
They get 66% from their own kills. So they need to get more than 34% from party member, out of a 44% if they killed at the same rate. That is, 77%. So party members can kill at most 20% different in speed, or it's just not worth it.
Equal levels in a 2 party group actually creates a 60/40 split, with killer getting 60%.
Throwing in party bonus for 2 people cranks it to 70%/50% since there is no constraint on XP limiting the end result to the original value. Throw in HS and it's up to 110/90.
That's not counting the the base 40% plus they're getting from their partners kills (modded up to 90%) which makes partnering pure profit for an AM with access to free HS, or a Bishop and since the partner also gets the benefit of 90% of the ultimate's kill speed it's a massive benefit for them as well.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:Avenger + Shadow Partner is not the worst mob skill.
Prove it. Don't bring up other classes' mob skills that have better alternatives either!
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Prove it. Don't bring up other classes' mob skills that have better alternatives either!
Well how about this, you can have an ultimate when Magicians can have a single target skill that spams over 100k a second WITHOUT having to worry about elemental weaknesses.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - JoeTang - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Prove it. Don't bring up other classes' mob skills that have better alternatives either!
Inferno: 190% Average damage, 285% With Advantage
Blizzard: 140% Damage if you max it, 210% with Advantage
Band of Thieves: 210% Damage
Dragon Fury: 250%
Charge Blow: 250%
Avenger + Shadow Partner: 370% Average damage
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
RDal Wrote:Well how about this, you can have an ultimate when Magicians can have a single target skill that spams over 100k a second WITHOUT having to worry about elemental weaknesses.
Are you proposing that I train with apples and SE on a regular basis? I wish!
And how does 100k+ a second with SE + apple compare to 99k x 15 every 3 seconds WITHOUT buffs?
Everyone seems to think of Night Lords as some super attacker class that does enormous damage 24/7, and fail to realize that we only reach that by using an apple and getting SE from another class. Where does being good at bosses get me? Nowhere. I rarely ever go to bosses and whenever I do, I really don't enjoy them, because it's just standing in one spot spamming an attack. Often times at bosses I even reach the attack limit and have to move to continue attacking.
In 3rd job, everyone was average on their solo EXP/hour gain, no classes had some super advantage. Now, in 4th job, attacker classes STILL receive that SAME 3rd job EXP/hour rate. All because Nexon focused the 4th job training speed improvement around magicians. I *have* to party a bishop or archmage to even get decent EXP, and I already get a little over 1%/hour on 2x EXP with a 1-hitting archmage. What happens when there are no magicians available to train with? Oh right, I guess that means I should just not train, because according to you, Night Lords do SUPER DUPER damage ALL THE TIME and don't need anything else to improve their training speed.
zzz....
JoeTang Wrote:Inferno: 190% Average damage, 285% With Advantage
Blizzard: 140% Damage if you max it, 210% with Advantage
Band of Thieves: 210% Damage
Dragon Fury: 250%
Charge Blow: 250%
Avenger + Shadow Partner: 370% Average damage
STFU.
Did you add in SE for both Bowmaster and Marksman? Don't think you did, and I also think both of those classes have better alternatives.
Boomerang Step is an alternative mob skill for Shadowers.
Dragon Fury is DEFINITELY better and more stable than SP + Avenger. Not even including Berserk.
Doesn't charge blow have elemental advantage?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Are you proposing that I train with apples and SE on a regular basis? I wish!
And how does 100k+ a second with SE + apple compare to 99k x 15 every 3 seconds WITHOUT buffs?
Everyone seems to think of Night Lords as some super attacker class that does enormous damage 24/7, and fail to realize that we only reach that by using an apple and getting SE from another class. Where does being good at bosses get me? Nowhere. I rarely ever go to bosses and whenever I do, I really don't enjoy them, because it's just standing in one spot spamming an attack. Often times at bosses I even reach the attack limit and have to move to continue attacking.
In 3rd job, everyone was average on their solo EXP/hour gain, no classes had some super advantage. Now, in 4th job, attacker classes STILL receive that SAME 3rd job EXP/hour rate. All because Nexon focused the 4th job training speed improvement around magicians. I *have* to party a bishop or archmage to even get decent EXP, and I already get a little over 1%/hour on 2x EXP with a 1-hitting archmage. What happens when there are no magicians available to train with? Oh right, I guess that means I should just not train, because according to you, Night Lords do SUPER DUPER damage ALL THE TIME and don't need anything else to improve their training speed.
zzz....
I don't know what world you're living in, but last time I checked not every Arch Mage or bishop hits constant 99k. I'd also like to know what map you're training on, I'm sure they'd very much like to go and 1 shot those 15 monsters at once. And actually Arch Mages take longer than three seconds to cast with maxed booster, there goes your without buffs theory. Arch Mages are made for mobs, You are not made for mobs. Sometimes I don't like it, sometimes others don't like it, but it's how it is.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
RDal Wrote:I don't know what world you're living in, but last time I checked not every Arch Mage or bishop hits constant 99k. I'd also like to know what map you're training on, I'm sure they'd very much like to go and 1 shot those 15 monsters at once. And actually Arch Mages take longer than three seconds to cast with maxed booster, there goes your without buffs theory. Arch Mages are made for mobs, You are not made for mobs. Sometimes I don't like it, sometimes others don't like it, but it's how it is.
Go check out some level 18x+ bishops with max genesis, they hit 99k every hit on skeles. Go check out some 16x+ archmages with max blizz/meteo and elemental weapons (oh and archmages DO hit 99k 100% on fire/ice weak monsters, but i'm not even referring to that damage =P). But hey, maybe you're right and i'm just horribly wrong about the damage. But even if they hit 50kx15 everytime I could still not compete. And your only argument for the without buffs part is "lolz no booster 4 magez"? Lol. Sure, they can be made for mobs, but to the advantage of getting twice as much EXP as any other class could get SOLO? (except for bishops of course since you'd probably point that out right away and skip the rest!)
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - JoeTang - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Did you add in SE for both Bowmaster and Marksman? Don't think you did, and I also think both of those classes have better alternatives.Inferno With SE: 282%
Boomerang Step is an alternative mob skill for Shadowers.
Dragon Fury is DEFINITELY better and more stable than SP + Avenger. Not even including Berserk.
Doesn't charge blow have elemental advantage?
Inferno With SE and Adv: 423%
Blizzard still sucks the same. Pierce needs to be charged too long to be practical in many cases.
Boomerang Step only hits four monsters at max. %DPS is almost the same as Avenger for a single target. It's lower though.
Charge Blow was a bad example.
Dragon Fury is only more stable because they don't have Critical and they have Beholder.
Pirate mob skills are a joke for damage until Corsairs get Torpedo.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Go check out some level 18x+ bishops with max genesis, they hit 99k every hit on skeles. Go check out some 16x+ archmages with max blizz/meteo and elemental weapons (oh and archmages DO hit 99k 100% on fire/ice weak monsters, but i'm not even referring to that damage =P). But hey, maybe you're right and i'm just horribly wrong about the damage. But even if they hit 50kx15 everytime I could still not compete. And your only argument for the without buffs part is "lolz no booster 4 magez"? Lol. Sure, they can be made for mobs, but to the advantage of getting twice as much EXP as any other class could get SOLO? (except for bishops of course since you'd probably point that out right away and skip the rest!)
You can't compete with us on mobs. We can't compete with you on single target. That's how things are SUPPOSED to be. I don't like it that much, you don't like it that much, but as I said, that's just how it is. Of course I would bring up no booster for mages, it's the only useful damage buff they HAVE. Meditate is a joke. You expect to make comparisons between buffed and un-buffed but you want to exclude the most considerable damage buff we have? Nice one.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Prove it. Don't bring up other classes' mob skills that have better alternatives either!Basing the numbers off of Dusk's spreadsheet...
http://www.southperry.net/forums/showpost.php?p=136314&postcount=116
So basically you have BMs, nontransformed Buccs, DrKs without Berserk below you. Pretty low on the pole, to be sure, but you're still not the worst.
If you get your hands out SE, you beat out Shadowers, MMs, transformed Buccs (who probably would beat you right back with SE themselves, though) and AMs that aren't ult spamming for whatever reason. But then again, that's a fairly big if.
Looking at that chart, though, AMs really don't have much to complain about without ults
All we need are higher level training maps where mobs of 4-6 actually happen relatively frequently.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
RDal Wrote:You can't compete with us on mobs. We can't compete with you on single target. That's how things are SUPPOSED to be. I don't like it that much, you don't like it that much, but as I said, that's just how it is. Of course I would bring up no booster for mages, it's the only useful damage buff they HAVE. Meditate is a joke. You expect to make comparisons between buffed and un-buffed but you want to exclude the most considerable damage buff we have? Nice one.
Yes I expect to make comparisons because me with buffs < archmage/bishops WITHOUT THEM, don't you see? I can't even compare to magician's EXP/hour WITH buffs, but they could get twice as much without them, let alone WITH them. I was also being sarcastic when I said I wanted an ultimate, I just don't want to *HAVE TO* find an archmage (has HS MULE I HOPE) or a bishop to party so I can continue leveling at a decent rate.
JoeTang Wrote:Inferno With SE: 282%
Inferno With SE and Adv: 423%
Blizzard still sucks the same. Pierce needs to be charged too long to be practical in many cases.
Boomerang Step only hits four monsters at max. %DPS is almost the same as Avenger for a single target. It's lower though.
Charge Blow was a bad example.
Dragon Fury is only more stable because they don't have Critical and they have Beholder.
Pirate mob skills are a joke for damage until Corsairs get Torpedo.
Inferno is often skipped by bowmasters and not often used. Blizzard isn't often used for attack advantage. Arrow rain has advantage of not having to be standing outside of the mob, which would make it better than Avenger+SP.
I am not only talking about theoretical numbers I am talking about actual skill usage and ease of use. Guess how much SP+Avenger hits for when I'm too close and punch? 1. Avenger is the only mob skill I know of that has this downside (and is regularly used).
Russt Wrote:But this basically tells you how much damage you could expect to do to 15 stationary snails in front of you, with 2 bil HP each...
Next time I train on immobile snails i'll take this into account.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Inferno is often skipped by bowmasters and not often used. Blizzard isn't often used for attack advantage. Arrow rain has advantage of not having to be standing outside of the mob, which would make it better than Avenger+SP.Avenger+SP has advantage of not having to be standing inside of the mob. Which is better?
Avenge Wrote:I am not only talking about theoretical numbers I am talking about actual skill usage and ease of use. Guess how much SP+Avenger hits for when I'm too close and punch? 1. Avenger is the only mob skill I know of that has this downside (and is regularly used).Range. Most important 'ease of use' factor by far. Taking that into account, your Avenger is better than Brandish, ACB, Energy Blast, Band of Thieves, etc etc.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19
Avenge Wrote:Yes I expect to make comparisons because me with buffs < archmage/bishops WITHOUT THEM, don't you see? I can't even compare to magician's EXP/hour WITH buffs, but they could get twice as much without them, let alone WITH them. I was also being sarcastic when I said I wanted an ultimate, I just don't want to *HAVE TO* find an archmage (has HS MULE I HOPE) or a bishop to party so I can continue leveling at a decent rate.
Arch Mages with booster, elemental weapons, with apples, with maxed MW, with SE < you spamming TT with nothing but booster. Do you see this as fair?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Hero - 2009-01-19
Wait, let me get this straight. We're comparing avenger with inferno (one class' only/main mob skill with another classes most weakest mob skill that's not even used by them because they have plenty of alternatives) and then we have mages complaining about DPS because apparently avenger is.. good?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19
No we had someone say avenger was the worst mob skill in the game, and some people are trying to refute that. I'm not complaining about Arch Mage DPS, I'm trying to highlight the fact they are made for mobbing and others are not.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-19
Hero Wrote:We're comparing avenger with inferno (one class' only/main mob skill with another classes most weakest mob skill that's not even used by them because they have plenty of alternatives)Plenty? I count one, Arrow Rain, which must be so godly in comparison because it's 10% stronger.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-19
Russt Wrote:Avenger+SP has advantage of not having to be standing inside of the mob. Which is better?
Range. Most important 'ease of use' factor by far. Taking that into account, your Avenger is better than Brandish, ACB, Energy Blast, Band of Thieves, etc etc.
Yeah, go to himes and see how much range you get there. Newties = 1 inch inbetween each of the immobile mobs, extremely easy to punch. Avenger is useless at skele's except to mob them.
Don't try to change this into what skill is easier to use or imply the burden of potion cost because I mentioned ease of use as a factor for further improving a realistic DPS.