Feedback Unleashed: Part IV - I am my hair

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Originally Posted by Arcana27961

What GMS should have done is increase the damage cap but leave the bosses alone.

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If that actually happened, then big bosses would be even more of a joke than they used to be. I would prefer buffing the bosses HP to a more reasonable amount rather than leaving them alone.

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

Isn't that why they put in "Physical Resistance", so people with 100% ignore will still lose damage?
If they've changed PDR they should take away Physical Resistance.

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Now they're adding in the ability for classes to ignore physical resistance, well all elemental resistances really. I believe, the Mercedes now ignores some, the revamped Cygnus Knights and newly revamped Paladin ignore all, and the Dawn Warrior revamp gave them that ability as a party buff?

How soon will it be until that, as well, will be changed or capped?

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Originally Posted by YennoX

The average unfunded player doesn't have any PDR ignore. Even if they did, those amounts would be so tiny (or come from very few sources) that the PDR changes are hardly going to affect them. The people being hit are the middle-class players (such as yourself).

Please stop trying to use the lower class as a pretence for your whingeing.

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Im not using the lower class as whatever you said...

not only my DS got nerfed with this... I also have many other characters Ma pally used to hit 200k per blast line, at lvl 15x (totally unfunded, im wearing free things scrolled with free scrolls) now he is hitting 150k per hit -.- (my blast does SIX lines of dmg, that's an overall 300k dmg DECREASE, and that would be way higher on some other classes like kaiser, lumi, idk)

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Originally Posted by Maryse

All I'm gonna say is the more comments I read and the more information I get, the more disappointed I am with the patch.

I'm mostly disappointed in the boss changes.
Bossing is a part of this game just like everything else is. But if you don't have a 500k+ max range, there's absolutely no point in trying to take on a boss, even if you're in a party.

This is our summer update, where people are supposed to be the most active
People are leaving.
I'll still be hanging around and exploring, but what's the point of being a high level if you can't go bossing like you previously could?

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

Isn't it amazing how people swing from "Best patch ever!" to "Worst patch ever!" so quickly? And that's not even counting the downtime.
To be honest, I don't understand why Nexon (or, specifically, Girasol and Waltzing) felt the need to mislead us with the Update Highlights and the posts on the forums painting a glowing picture of what was to come. Did they really think we wouldn't realize the bad news when it hit us? That we wouldn't be disappointed and angry?

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couldn't say those things better.at first,with the teasers and the update highlights the patch seemed beautiful,almost a perfect patch,every group got what they wanted (rich got higher damage cap,poor got more ways to improve themselves,the players who actually care about exploring and storyline got more areas and quests and the events seemed nice) but as soon as they released the patch notes,from the part one of it,more and more people started to realize this patch isn't as good as we thought of.by all the posts of girasol and waltzing we were sure we wouldn't get the bad parts of the patch (mostly boss changes) but suddenly,the last part of the patch notes added and we saw the boss changes.not to mention at all nexon did not inform us about some formulas changes (im looking at you,exp and pdr) they pretty much hid the bad news from us all along the weeks before the patch.and then,when the game want live.... suddenly mostly everyone doing much less damage,leveling much slower (not because of LHC removal,there are other places now,but from the exp reduction).they have tried to make the game more active and make the players more socialize with each other,but instead more players are leaving.i mean,heck i went to Hall Of Honor yesterday during the first 2x,not a single party to train with.the new areas for high levels are maybe nice,but not effective training-wise unless you are well funded,same goes for bossing.
/angry feedback finished
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Originally Posted by Arrol

If that actually happened, then big bosses would be even more of a joke than they used to be. I would prefer buffing the bosses HP to a more reasonable amount rather than leaving them alone.

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right,REASONABLE and how exactly the boss x35 stronger is reasonable? and how making most bosses unavailable to the middle-class characters reasonable? and how making dojo buffed so people who could finish it before cant even pass half of it reasonable?

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Originally Posted by 777

right,REASONABLE and how exactly the boss x35 stronger is reasonable? and how making most bosses unavailable to the middle-class characters reasonable? and how making dojo buffed so people who could finish it before cant even pass half of it reasonable?

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I said REASONABLE, not retardedly impossible. Read before you post. :f3:

Personally, I'm not gonna get too mad with Gira or Waltzing. They're just their voice, they just get the info. Who knows, even the developers can pull a fast one on those two.

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Originally Posted by Arrol

I said REASONABLE, not retardedly impossible. Read before you post. :f3:

Personally, I'm not gonna get too mad with Gira or Waltzing. They're just their voice, they just get the info. Who knows, even the developers can pull a fast one on those two.

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from what i understood,you said in your original post the bosses are now at reasonable HP.
and no one is blaming girasol or waltzing in particular,we blame nexon as a whole.with all the "we listened to players concerns" and making many people quit.its almost exactly what happened in KMS when they received their own unlimited.

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Originally Posted by iAmFear

Now they're adding in the ability for classes to ignore physical resistance, well all elemental resistances really. I believe, the Mercedes now ignores some, the revamped Cygnus Knights and newly revamped Paladin ignore all, and the Dawn Warrior revamp gave them that ability as a party buff?

How soon will it be until that, as well, will be changed or capped?

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Pretty sure CK passive got nerfed to 50%. What party buff do you speak of? :O

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Originally Posted by VerrKol

Pretty sure CK passive got nerfed to 50%. What party buff do you speak of? :O

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It does... I'm pretty sure, anyway, data definitely says 50% (okay, it says x = 50, which could mean practically anything), I've heard it was only 50% for Dawn Warrior, dunno. Also, I was mistaken, it's just a regular, non-party buff.

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Originally Posted by VerrKol

Pretty sure CK passive got nerfed to 50%. What party buff do you speak of? :O

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Wasn't that added in the Battle Mage revamp patch? I'm not sure if it ever carried over to the live server. At least it didn't according to Max's Blog.

L>A level 100+ Revamped KoC to check this please. :monocle:

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Originally Posted by YennoX

The average unfunded player doesn't have any PDR ignore. Even if they did, those amounts would be so tiny (or come from very few sources) that the PDR changes are hardly going to affect them. The people being hit are the middle-class players (such as yourself).

Please stop trying to use the lower class as a pretence for your whingeing.

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Originally Posted by YennoX

Then, there is the problem of scale on which this occurs as well. An unfunded player losing 30% of his damage is a going to be hit a lot softer than a funded player losing the same. 70% of pomegranatety damage is still pomegranatety damage, and won't make or break your bossing (assuming you'll be bossing at all in the first place). For other intents and purposes, where PDR does start mattering, it would be the middle-class at bosses. That's where the majority of the complaints are coming from.

That's cool. But saying that the unfunded are getting hit hard? That's hardly going to earn you any sympathy points.

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Originally Posted by YennoX

20% PDR over whatever your mob's Defence Rate is. The average mob? 20% at most. If you think that 4% damage is going to make a difference when training, then all the more power to you.

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Originally Posted by YennoX

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Originally Posted by Hanabira.Kage

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Originally Posted by YennoX

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

20% PDR is what the mobs have.
50-100% PDR Ignore is what an unfunded player has.
So we're talking 10-20% less damage, which does make a difference when training on mobs you can't 1-hit.

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Wait, so you're assuming that under this new PDR formula, players who had 50-100% ignore suddenly have 0% now?

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If you're starting to get riled up, cool your head.

Read it again after that.

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Do you know how PDR works?

(snip)

Whether that makes a difference or not will depend on the class itself and the mob you're going up against. I'd like to think that the scenarios where the lost damage from the new PDR formula actually make a significant difference are very few, given how disproportionate player damage has been compared to mob HP ever since Big Bang.

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Disturbing how you sweep the "lower class" under the rug. edit: But yes you're right we're hit little.

Alright, I'm here to check numbers, and I don't think everyone's going to like this. I'm a little surprised by the result too.

Consider several variants of mobs with PDR of:
10% (standard mob 1)
25% (average mob PDR)
35% (Future Ereve party play mobs)
50% (Normal Hilla, CZak, Magnus, CHT)
70% (Chaos RA bosses, Vellum, Pink Bean, Old Cygnus, Old Chaos Magnus)
100% (New Cygnus, New Chaos Hilla)
120% (New Chaos Magnus)
180% (Chaos PB).

Note that most of the new normal RA bosses are raised to about 60% (check extractions for that) so... yeah less damage for you. Most people training will consider the first 4 mob PDRs, and most people bossing will consider the last 4 mob PDRs. You should be able to estimate and intrapolate for bosses not mentioned e.g. HT etc.

Math Explanation

The formulae for the old and new PDR are as follow:

Old: 1 - PDR(1 - SumofIgnorePDR)
New: 1 - PDR(1 - IgnorePDR1)(1 - IgnorePDR2)(...)

For the sake of convenience, I define a PDR reduction factor as the stuff that is going to be multiplied onto the PDR, namely:

Old PDR Reduction Factor: (1 - SumofIgnorePDR)
New PDR Reduction Factor: (1 - IgnorePDR1)(1 - IgnorePDR2)(...)

The greater the difference between the old and new PDR reduction factors, the bigger the discrepancies in %DMG between the old and new calculations.

Your decrease in DPS is simply 100% minus the New:Old ratio (or 1 minus that, if you prefer it in decimals).

"Poor" unfunded people, IgnorePDR = 60%

Ambition (Level 50)	Light Wash (Level 2)	Hob PQ set	Most passive skills	Old PDR Reduction Factor	New PDR Reduction Factor
5%	15%	15%	25%	0.4	0.5147

Mob PDR	%DMG after PDR (Old)	%DMG after PDR (New)	New:Old ratio
10%	96	94.85	98.8
25%	90	87.13	96.81
35%	86	81.98	95.33
50%	80	74.26	92.83
70%	72	63.97	88.84
100%	60	48.52	80.87
120%	52	38.23	73.51
180%	28	7.34	26.21

It will be fair to say that the average player will not likely hit level 100 Ambition, nor Light Wash level 3. Leafre set may be be out of reach to them if they can't find a PQ, if they can even survive HT in the first place. Considering only 1 passive skill (say Marksmanship) a respectable 60% IgnorePDR is achieved in the old system.

In this bracket, you're probably going to train and level at standard mobs, maybe even going Future Ereve while killing Hilla once in a while.

"Average" unfunded people, IgnorePDR = 100%

Ambition (Level 100)	Light Wash (Level 3)	Leafre set	Skill with big IgnorePDR	Old PDR Reduction Factor	New PDR Reduction Factor
10%	20%	30%	40%	0	0.3024

Mob PDR	%DMG after PDR (Old)	%DMG after PDR (New)	New:Old ratio
10%	100	96.98	96.98
25%	100	92.44	92.44
35%	100	89.42	89.42
50%	100	84.88	84.88
70%	100	78.83	78.83
100%	100	69.76	69.76
120%	100	63.71	63.71
180%	100	45.57	45.57

Kind of a hardworking guy, say a Luminous because he mobs like crazy so it's easy to level. Since IgnorePDR is 100%, by the old system you would always be doing full damage, so the New:Old ratio is the same as the column for New PDR.

In this bracket, you're probably consistently training at Future Ereve and some other standard mobs/bosses to get away from the boredom. You would probably do some bossing too, but you probably can't kill Chaos Hilla...

"Average" unfunded people, IgnorePDR = 100%, 40% -> 2 x 20%

Ambition (Level 100)	Light Wash (Level 3)	Leafre set	Most passive skills	Potential Line	Old PDR Reduction Factor	New PDR Reduction Factor
10%	20%	30%	25%	15%	0	0.3213

Mob PDR	%DMG after PDR (Old)	%DMG after PDR (New)	New:Old ratio
10%	100	96.79	96.79
25%	100	91.97	91.97
35%	100	88.75	88.75
50%	100	83.94	83.94
70%	100	77.51	77.51
100%	100	67.87	67.87
120%	100	61.44	61.44
180%	100	42.17	42.17

Investigating what happens if you have 100%PDR, but instead of it coming from one big skill, it comes from a standard passive skill and an average potential line.

"Funded" people, IgnorePDR = 160%

Ambition (Level 100)	Light Wash (Level 3)	Leafre set	Skill with big IgnorePDR	Potential Line 1	Potential Line 2	Old PDR Reduction Factor	New PDR Reduction Factor
10%	20%	30%	40%	35%	25%	0	0.1474

Mob PDR	%DMG after PDR (Old)	%DMG after PDR (New)	New:Old ratio
10%	100	98.52	98.52
25%	100	96.31	96.31
35%	100	94.84	94.84
50%	100	92.63	92.63
70%	100	89.68	89.68
100%	100	85.26	85.26
120%	100	82.31	82.31
180%	100	73.46	73.46

Say you're kind of funded, you have equipment that gives you IgnorePDR. You're probably a bosser, but you're probably also trying to level to 250 too at the new maps.

See the spoiler below for splitting up that 40% IgnorePDR.

Spoiler

Ambition (Level 100)	Light Wash (Level 3)	Leafre set	Most passive skills	Potential Line 1	Potential Line 2	Potential Line 3	Old PDR Reduction Factor	New PDR Reduction Factor
10%	20%	30%	40%	35%	25%	15%	0	0.1566

Mob PDR	%DMG after PDR (Old)	%DMG after PDR (New)	New:Old ratio
10%	100	98.43	98.43
25%	100	96.08	96.08
35%	100	94.52	94.52
50%	100	92.17	92.17
70%	100	89.04	89.04
100%	100	84.34	84.34
120%	100	81.20	81.20
180%	100	71.81	71.81

Conclusions:
- Funded players, don't complain that unfunded/middle-class people get hit less hard, because for the same mobs, you're not.
- Middle-class players, ouch.
- Poor players, life goes on.

I find it hard to sympathise with the funded people, because in the first place we're fighting different things.

Some of your words are true - poor people training at most standard mobs only experience up to 3-5% decrease in damage, whereas middle-class and bossing players get hit really hard in what they do. But maybe you'd like to rethink the rest of your words.

(For the record: I belong to the unfunded middle-class, but I don't HT or Cygnus, and I can't down VL either.)

edit: this stupid table thing again... leme fix it. Tables are fixed.

edit2: More relevant opinion - scale that damn PDR for mobs and bosses. You've already buffed their HP like nobody's business, so don't give us a triple-whammy.

edit3: Fixed a typo (thanks Sapta), made the explanations a little clearer.

Hadriel

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Originally Posted by hadriel

Disturbing how you sweep the "lower class" under the rug.

Alright, I'm here to check numbers, and I don't think everyone's going to like this. I'm a little surprised by the result too.

Some of your words are true - poor people training at most standard mobs only experience up to 3-5% decrease in damage, whereas middle-class and bossing players get hit really hard in what they do. But maybe you'd like to rethink the rest of your words.

Hadriel

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Thanks for the calculations.

My point so far, however, was always that the poor unfunded people don't really get affected much by this change, and that people should stop bringing them into the greater argument about 'all the poor players being shafted' when trying to make their points--it's like politicians always trying to refer to specific groups of people in society knowing full well the people themselves probably couldn't care less about whatever it is they're about to say.

I am not contesting any of the facts, but rather, sick of people using the lower class as an excuse for everything.

EDIT: I'm not sweeping the lower class under the rug either. Why? Because I'm lower (or lower-middle) class myself.

@hadriel, I didn't check your math, but something must be wrong. You've got the exact same new PDR Reduction Factor regardless of whether the 40% is in one chunk or two. That can't be right.

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Originally Posted by SaptaZapta

@hadriel, I didn't check your math, but something must be wrong. You've got the exact same new PDR Reduction Factor regardless of whether the 40% is in one chunk or two. That can't be right.

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Sorry a copy-pasting mistake. Screwed up when the table thing exploded on me. It should make sense now; the split-up one should do less damage because this is the reverse of square-maximisation (which is what we aim for when considering %stat) - since this is a subtractive function you want to "minimise the square" i.e. want the smallest area.

Hadriel

I think the biggest flaw, is that in any "exp gaining game" so to speak, you have content you can access later after training for it, to be stronger. When the curve is too steep, it brings frustration.

With the current changes, we just got buffed up bosses that have, in most cases, not even a chance at completing by 90% of the people. I myself couldn't complete some bosses before the change, until I got better, but this way, I see there'll be no way EVER. I can see this as a nice change to add when 5th job is released or soon to be released, but right now? It's just making people quit. Dammit, I'm considering too, if the dojo changes are intentional! It's like you can't kill a thing unless you dish out a thousand dollars! And that's not right.

And to top things, players got their damages reduced. Easily fixed by, you guessed it, buying more NX!

I'm still hoping this is a glitch or overlooking though, because some bosses are glitched to hell and back, and that shouldn't be intentional aswell. Same goes for those hilariously glitchy placeholder weapons that drop.

I got weaker with this patch, I can't even boss.. I'm lv 16X and I feel useless.

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Originally Posted by hadriel

Sorry a copy-pasting mistake. Screwed up when the table thing exploded on me. It should make sense now; the split-up one should do less damage because this is the reverse of square-maximisation (which is what we aim for when considering %stat) - since this is a subtractive function you want to "minimise the square" i.e. want the smallest area.

Hadriel

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i'm going to assume your chart is "post-recubing" because right now i doubt anyone has 160% or so PDR, since most people once getting 100% or so ignore just aim for boss%.

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Originally Posted by horakung

God why?
2H magic is 60 coins

Kanna's crying :f4:

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Also, not posting a SS, but the 20% 2H magic ATT EXPIRES in ONE DAY -Beware.

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Originally Posted by ShinkuDragon

i'm going to assume your chart is "post-recubing" because right now i doubt anyone has 160% or so PDR, since most people once getting 100% or so ignore just aim for boss%.

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Generally, yes. Though it is not difficult for some classes to hit that number e.g. Marksmen, DS and Paladin, depending on how the PDR thing works from Threaten and Demon Cry. If DS's IgnorePDR stuff works as I think, Demon Cry 15%, Bind 30% passive, Demon Impact 30%, Ambition 10%, Light Wash lvl3 20%, Leafre 30%, yea that's already 135% before any other lines e.g. from secondary weapon, Von Leon set (don't ask me why you'd get this).

Hadriel

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Originally Posted by hadriel

Generally, yes. Though it is not difficult for some classes to hit that number e.g. Marksmen, DS and Paladin, depending on how the PDR thing works from Threaten and Demon Cry. If DS's IgnorePDR stuff works as I think, Demon Cry 15%, Bind 30% passive, Demon Impact 30%, Ambition 10%, Light Wash lvl3 20%, Leafre 30%, yea that's already 135% before any other lines e.g. from secondary weapon, Von Leon set (don't ask me why you'd get this).

Hadriel

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threaten and cry worked multiplicative since ever IIRC. or something, for some reason i never am able to remember. and i know it's picky, but i wouldn't count light wash 20% ignore, getting to 210 is... more of a battle of will than funding. (my will is so weak for example, that i don't even have level 2.)

The new Sinapore is alright, like the permanent badge but its basically like all they did was change the exp, level and mesos of the monsters, the drops are exactly the same lol. As least make the drops more appropriate for their level or something.

I have max Insight, tried to identify the 150 badge after I used a adv pot scroll on it and it would have cost 450k mesos even with max insight wth lol, thank god I have 99 of those untradeable magnifying glasses left from the red chest event. The new potential reveal system makes no sense at all imo.

It also deosnt seem like they increased the natural drop rate of equipment either, about every other item that dropped for my in OB 3 dureing 2x yesterday afternoon came with pot and sometimes bonus pot too but that may have been luck iono still also feels like it should have been more loose with the drop rate.

Im also guessing that Bits werent supposed to come out till Xenon's debut so thats most likely why they dont drop yet unfortunately.

And yeah Dojo lol, what used to take me like 13 minutes to clear out ranked mode now takes me 30 minutes just to get all the way to snowman, run out of mp and then run out of time lol fun fun.

What the hell were they thinking ! lol