What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills?

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Printable Version

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What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Wolfman - 2009-01-18

Stereo Wrote:I seem to remember saying it would cast fast, not the same speed as IS.
Teh point isn't to always hit 20 targets, just to make it possible. I'm not familiar with mage damage base so I can't do fine balancing. (what is IS and CL's base? All I know is that Blizzard does around 99k with 570 base and I want about 12-15k fast cast)
If CL does 2/3 damage to each successive target that's 75k on 2, 95k on 3. Balance point with other classes at 16x is around 110k @ 2 targets so it does need about a 50% base spell atk increase. I'm just not familiar to AM damage so I couldn't do balance like that.

200% dealt to monster, 60% dealt to player, instead of 200% and 100%. It's only an improvement on the existing skill.

If there's a better way to designate distant targets I'd like to hear it, what I'm looking for is a teleport that can jump up/down platforms to hit monsters at a much better distance than current TP rather than horizontal speed.

Just saying that even though you may want it to hit 20 monsters, giving it a range like that to hit that number of monsters is not logical. Even for 10 monsters that would be pushing it. It's highly situational e.g maps like himes, but if you are going to alter/assign new skills just to have them be situational in nature. Why not just create situations which will bring out the potential for the skills we already have.

Using the respective elemental weapon:
For a 12-15k attack at 16x it would require 105 spell attack.
Ice strike hits 10-12k with 65 casts per second
CL hits 20-25k with ~92 casts per second

How fast would this be? Bear in mind you can squeeze 3-4 CL's in the time period of a 3s freeze. Ignoring average damage and being able to change ele wands to the respective element, that would mean being able to KO a fresh mob with 68k hp using 1 Ice Strike and 4 Thunderstorms at 92 cps during the frozen period - 3s while minimizing damage taken. How does this compare to other classes?

CL with a 50% increase
66-82k on element weak with Ele Wand and Adv Amp
38-48k Neutral

Still subpar at neutral bosses however it puts us up in the top tier for DPS when combined with our summons at Lit weak bosses. IMO great representation for 1 of the 2 true magical attackers of Maplestory. I think it was Appled Nls with SE and Corsairs on battleship who would still be above us in dps. Would this be well received though? Or would people find something to peach at about this as well?

For an I/L the advanced teleport vertically would not work well with thunderstorm and the current maps we have. Getting a large mob positioned so you can hit all of them whilst split among 2-3 levels will be difficult due to gaps in the platforms or the platforms just being too far apart. This then results in creating specific situations where this obstacle can be overcome but again. why not just make those situations using the skills we have already to benefit those who need it.

I think I misunderstood what you were saying with the MR description before, but still the best thing for MR would be to make it a party skill.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Xaorath - 2009-01-18

I really like a lot of shippo's ideas as I can actually imagining most of them happening. For example, Axe Brandish is a great idea as Axe Heroes sort of get the shaft as it is now. I also like the ideas of buffing Smokescreen, Beholder's Healing and Infinity, since buffing SS would give Shadowers a good party skill, beholders healing would help DrK's maintain Berserk and Infinity would actually be useful. I also liked the idea of Holy Shield preventing Seduce & Undead status. In my opinion, it should do this already since it just does the same thing as dispel as it is now.

Ultimates do need to go if this game is ever going to be balanced, but if they were to remove those, new training maps with monsters that give much more EXP would need to be added. Also, a decent training skill would need to be added for bishops and mages regular attacks would need to be buffed. Also, all three magicians ultimates would have to go, not just bishops. All that would happen if you removed Genesis and not Meteor & Blizzard is Bishops would drop from the top of the class tier only to be replaced by Mages, which wouldn't help balance the game any more for other classes.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Harrisonized - 2009-01-18

Cyanne Wrote:Archmages: Remove ultimates and power up fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang to allow archmages to train at a similar pace to other classes. In the ultimates' place, a new skill should be added that removes weapon/magic cancel but with quite a long cooldown. This lets them become more useful at bosses in a unique way.

Then the mage class will no longer be the gods of AoE. You'd have to up the damage of "fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang" by a substantial amount. Also, Big Bang is almost like an ultimate with quartered range and neutral damage. Upping that would be contradicting your statement that Archmages are overpowered with their "ultimates" when you're simply taking one form away and replacing it with a different form, one arguably better because of it's lower mana cost.

Also, why would a mage even need that much (I believe they have 18K mp at level 19x) MP when they can't even use that much. Since they have around 2K-ish HP, they only need 8K mp for magic guard, what's the other 10K for? Nexon designed Meteo and Blizzard in a way that makes mages... different from other classes. Your changes make mages too similar to warriors in my opinion, and I assure you that if you up "fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang" to the point where it's balanced, the other classes will complain about you being the best bossers because of versatility.

Cyanne Wrote:Bishops: Remove genesis and replace it with a forward piercing mob skill that allows them to train at a very slightly slower rate than others, to compensate for holy symbol, like what I'm proposing for paladins. Also, replace infinity with the flame wizard skill that converts the archmage's own elemental spells to neutral.

That's a good change, but then again, you'd have to make the piercing mob skill pretty strong because Bishops in a sense, are magicians, and magicians are always mobbers. Making the piercing mob skill strong means that you'd have to make the skill overpower a certain skill Marksmen have called "Pierce" and then you can say that Angel Ray will be useless because all the Bishops, if soloing, will use that as single target.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Stereo - 2009-01-18

Harrisonized Wrote:Then the mage class will no longer be the gods of AoE.

Skills do have to balance out with map availability, I would hardly call anything in Leafre a true '4th job' training area.. Most of it peaks exp-wise at late 12x (or even 11x) and then is a dropoff to 200, except possibly for cases of not being able to get skillbooks until higher levels.

Once there are areas that actually get better with 140+ chars a lot of balances should shift. Especially monsters with decent defense (ie 5000+).

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Magus - 2009-01-18

If you lot don't stop using ad homonym arguments I'm closing the topic.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Cyanne - 2009-01-18

Harrisonized Wrote:Then the mage class will no longer be the gods of AoE. You'd have to up the damage of "fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang" by a substantial amount. Also, Big Bang is almost like an ultimate with quartered range and neutral damage. Upping that would be contradicting your statement that Archmages are overpowered with their "ultimates" when you're simply taking one form away and replacing it with a different form, one arguably better because of it's lower mana cost.

Also, why would a mage even need that much (I believe they have 18K mp at level 19x) MP when they can't even use that much. Since they have around 2K-ish HP, they only need 8K mp for magic guard, what's the other 10K for? Nexon designed Meteo and Blizzard in a way that makes mages... different from other classes. Your changes make mages too similar to warriors in my opinion, and I assure you that if you up "fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang" to the point where it's balanced, the other classes will complain about you being the best bossers because of versatility.

That's a good change, but then again, you'd have to make the piercing mob skill pretty strong because Bishops in a sense, are magicians, and magicians are always mobbers. Making the piercing mob skill strong means that you'd have to make the skill overpower a certain skill Marksmen have called "Pierce" and then you can say that Angel Ray will be useless because all the Bishops, if soloing, will use that as single target.

The problems with ultimates are that they make archmages and bishops train way faster than other classes and that they're dull to use for training. Honestly, spamming an ultimate in one spot for hours on end is extremely boring, but it's a waste of time to use anything else because ultimate training is just that much faster. They also discourage partying because it's tough to find a party member that will not actually slow your exp rate down, especially since ultimates obliterate entire screens at a time. Big bang doesn't have these problems, mostly because of the smaller range.

For bishops, they aren't supposed to be stronger than marksmen or any other class because they're mostly a support class, which is why they get holy symbol during training. And by forward-piercing, I just meant an iron arrow/avenger/torpedo-style attack. Besides, even if they were to be as strong as marksmen, they don't have the necessary mob control skills like dragon breath and freeze to be able to train as efficiently anyways.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Gstatue - 2009-01-18

Magus Wrote:If you lot don't stop using ad homonym arguments I'm closing the topic.

Teach a man to fish and he'll be fed forever Will.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Deviant - 2009-01-18

Magicians-Genesis is a fine skill for soloing, needs a small nerf to keep it from being overpowered, but once real 4th job content comes out itll be a lot better I think. Archmages really need ultimates nerfed a bit and other skills buffed a bit, ultimates shouldnt be the ONLY method of viable training. Also leeching needs to be fixed somehow.

Warriors- I dont have experience with the problems of warriors really, but I know paladins need to be slightly less element reliant, especially since they'll get lumped in with mages when they do get elemental monsters and the mages/bishops will KS the map to hell. Dark Knights really need a few buffs, Berzerk could do more damage, the fact that they dont change much from 3rd to 4th job is really a let down for many, maybe they can swap out a skill or something.

Thieves- Lower NLs broken damage formulas, maybe give them a bit more HP, but they dont REALLY need it per se unless their damage gets nerfed too a bit. Shadowers need to increase their overall bossing DPS, a frequently brought up idea is shorten assassinate's attack time, which I like the idea of, that'd make it more viable for training and give us better bossing DPS, but not too high. Now if only Assassinate 30 came from more than GPQ bonus...
Also I'd like if you hit the assassinate key out of darksight if it put you in darksight, it'd be convenient, though perhaps hard to code, I dont really know.

Archers- More HP would be nice, Marksmen need some more love as well, though with the Snipe fixes they're catching up to BMs in training DPS which is really nice. Again I cant say much more than that since i have no experience.

Pirates- I have no clue, hahah, not enough knowledge/experience to judge.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Chameleonic - 2009-01-18

I think most of Stereo's ideas are great and go a long way to balancing things. The people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to lose their "advantages" and be bought back to the pack. lol

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - ElectricSix - 2009-01-18

Just figured I'd post some ideas I've had about things. Only got up to mages, but maybe later on I'll do some of the other classes. Also, I have no idea if the % for whatever I've listed are too strong, but I just put them there since I thought they looked fairly good. If someone feels like suggesting a different %, I'm fine with that since chances are good they'll never be enacted anyway. XP

All warriors -

Spoiler

Heroes -

Spoiler

Paladins -

Spoiler

Dark Knight -

Spoiler

So for all warriors, I tried to give them ways to even out the different weapon choices and actually have new skills that will help get them partied, minus the dark knight who would already get partied for hb so I figure a new mob attack was in order.

All Mages -

Spoiler

Fire/Poison -

Spoiler

Ice/Light -

Spoiler

Bishops -

Spoiler

Essentially for all mages, I would just cut down on the ultimate spamming since while it can damage monsters, it can't kill them, nor can another mages ultimate skill do so either. At the same time, I wanted to improve their single target skills with large area reaching attacks that are less than ultimates, but more than their previous area attacks. So you still see them casting their huge screen attacks, but they do have to move around with them to finish off monsters or get the monsters not being affected by their ultimate. Hopefully this would improve Arch Mages and Bishops desire to party people outside their class without negating their ability to do massive mobbing.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Shippo the Fox - 2009-01-18

Chameleonic Wrote:I think most of Stereo's ideas are great and go a long way to balancing things. The people who are disagreeing are those who don't want to lose their "advantages" and be bought back to the pack. lol

Actually, I disagree with most of Stereo's changes and this is coming from somebody in the "back of the pack."

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - MasPan - 2009-01-18

Findings Wrote:I don't. His response and inability to read an entire paragraph has EVERYTHING to do with his inability to play a game as simple as Maple Story. I didn't think that this was the place to post screenshots about it however, but since you insist. This site lost every bit of it's credibility the moment it followed suite and stopped warning according to the rules and starting warning according to personal opinion. Posting an observation is "flaming" now. It's silly to even bring up something as ridiculous and intangible as "internet cred."

Spoiler

His illegit pirate, spiritship

If there were a single decent fire weak mob training spot you might have a valid point.

I don't see anyone hacking in this screenshot. Al's past is shady, but that's no reason to say anyone who leeches from him is any less legit than someone leeching from anyone else. If you wish to discuss this further, please move it to a new thread elsewhere.

To Stereo, I like the idea of advanced Sacrifice, it would help PA DrKs a ton at bossing without shafting spears. Maybe a 10 point buff that converts all attacks to forced stabs/slashes (seperated for diff weapon masteries), including those with forced animations. PA crusher counting damage as swings would be pretty amazing, as would spear fury stab damage, and it would finally make Dances with Balrogs's statement, something about choosing 1 weapon to master being beneficial, truthful.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-18

Will you guys stop going on about ultimates. The only changes that need to be made to ultimates are changes for balance between Arch Mages and Bishops. What needs to happen is the developers need to stop giving bishops more base attack on their skills to compensate for amp. Because that completely defeats the point of amp. The new 5% is a joke, for every 10k they do 500 more damage, to get the maximum advantage out of it they need to hit 95k, which will give them a 5k boost, the most they can use. I don't think anyone will hit over a 40k CL on neutral without some extreme pot, which means no Arch Mage will get a boost of more than 2k on CL. I can't actually speak for F/P because I've never played one. All amp means is to do damage a bit above them and have to spend twice as much MP, and once both classes start 1 hitting things it becomes completely pointless. In the future I'd like to say amp. get a much more dramatic increase in %, or a dramatic decrease in MP usage. You also need to stop using elemental weapons in your arguments. Not everyone is going to HAVE an elemental weapon. Changes in SKILLS need to be made. And will people stop mentioning "getting rid of leechers" as an excuse to nerf ultimates. Why, because of the actions of lazy players, should a class only good for ONE thing (Arch Mages and training) be penalized? Bishops will always be wanted because of their support skills, but can anyone give me one reason they would want to train with an Arch Mage if they didn't have blizzard / meteor?

You're all for buffing up their mobbing skills, but at a map like newties you only get mobs of 3 or 4 at a time, and with the arcs on CL I was only able to hit 4 at the most, having my damage cut each time it went through them, and that's the largest ranged attack my I/L has excluding blizzard. Everyone is saying they are meant to be mobbers, but the current "end-game" maps we have aren't friendly to good mob attacks (excluding ultimates), as opposed to big hitting single attacks, which you say Arch Mages aren't meant to have. If you take away ultimates, then Arch Mages will have the worst of everything. So what if they train faster than you? Take away ultimates and I guarantee you'll level a damn lot slower than you do now, and it's not like they can do anything with those levels because they aren't good for much else. So what if they can kill steal you? Pre-ultimates everyone KSed us, and I didn't see you complaining about THAT happening. You need to stop complaining about people who abuse the skills, because if Arch Mage's or Bishops aren't top of the "food chain", then someone else will be, and THEY will do it. Making it so peopel can't KS others ISN'T balance. The fact people abuse their skills isn't the fault of the developers, it's the player.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Eos - 2009-01-18

Cyanne Wrote:Archmages: Remove ultimates and power up fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang to allow archmages to train at a similar pace to other classes. In the ultimates' place, a new skill should be added that removes weapon/magic cancel but with quite a long cooldown. This lets them become more useful at bosses in a unique way.

I'd be happier if they just made blizzard/genesis/meteor slightly more powerful than ice strike (maybe a 170 to 200, on par with thunder spear, and boosting chain lightning a bit so it's not a meak 180 but possibly a nice 220), for approximately the same casting cost and retaining the 15 targets.

Then it's just a minor scale up over what they had on 3rd job in terms of damage and targets, not an unbalanced nuke-the-universe-to-oblivion.

I really dislike the way chain lightning's arcing works and that paralyze is single target. Them both arcing and dropping 25% per arc instead of 50% would be a lot more useful overall since all you do is aggro the last three mobs hit right now.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Dusk - 2009-01-18

Then we need to change the current endgame maps, not continue the trend of keeping broken skills broken. Dragon Canyon maps all suck. Stationary monsters and annoying platforms with only a small cluster of monsters on each one. Time Temple is a step in the right direction; it is much more friendly to mobbing.

Ultimates have the ridiculously high MP cost because you aren't intended to spam them to train. Problem is, people want to train fast, and the money isn't an obstacle to many, especially in GMS.

I don't agree with the removal of ultimates, I just think there should be a 5 second cooldown on them. CL's damage reduction has been cut in KMST and it should serve as a powerful mob skill now.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Shippo the Fox - 2009-01-18

RDal Wrote:Everyone is saying they are meant to be mobbers, but the current "end-game" maps we have aren't friendly to good mob attacks (excluding ultimates), as opposed to big hitting single attacks, which you say Arch Mages aren't meant to have.

I agree with you on everything about ultimates, but when you say this, do you mean Magician Mob attacks?

Oh, and GMS is only able to effectively spam Ultimates thanks to NLC. Otherwise....

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Eos - 2009-01-19

Cyanne Wrote:They also discourage partying because it's tough to find a party member that will not actually slow your exp rate down

Off topic tangent about the party/XP system. Ignore if you don't care.

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Stereo - 2009-01-19

Shippo the Fox Wrote:I agree with you on everything about ultimates, but when you say this, do you mean Magician Mob attacks?

Mob attacks in general... nothing survives long enough for any other skill to mob at full size, since range is 1/2 or lower. If the lure+attack (ie. himes @ 3rd job) method came back then other mob attacks would have a chance to do proper max-target damage. Right now that doesn't happen because by 15x most classes 2hko the strongest stuff in the game. (obviously not Bowmasters since they use extremely fast weak attacks)

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Rick - 2009-01-19

Shippo the Fox Wrote:I agree with you on everything about ultimates, but when you say this, do you mean Magician Mob attacks?

Oh, and GMS is only able to effectively spam Ultimates thanks to NLC. Otherwise....

Yeah, I mean magician mob attacks. The newties are spaced too far out for CL to arc to them properly, and at skelegons the damage decreases too much past about the first 3 to make much difference. Ice strike is a joke with damage, and explosion is slow. Paralyze isn't even a mob skill >.>

What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Cyanne - 2009-01-19

eos367 Wrote:
Off topic tangent about the party/XP system. Ignore if you don't care.

This is a common misconception. Due to the way the XP gain formula works if throw HS into things a mage partying others gains more XP than solo by at least 10% as long as they're 19 levels above the other leechable party member ( examples - 143 AM and a 122 bishop can party just fine. A 170 mage and a 145 bowman can as well if a leechless HS mule is in party to provide HS).

It's somewhat limited since you cant have a full party of 6, but realistically an ultimate spamming mage doesn't really leave enough targets for more than one other 4th jobber most of the time.

Still, 110% plus thier kills means mages do have incentive to party they just don't know it half the time. This is one of the reasons I argue HS mules do more to aid partying in general, than to undermine it, because it frees people to party with any class, not just clerics and bishops.

Yeah, I know about that, but Nexon didn't intend for non-leeching hs mules to be used, and archmage + leeching priest + other attacker definitely slows exp down from solo. A leeching priest alone does speed up exp, but I wouldn't really consider that a true party really because the priest doesn't help kill the monsters.

About that last part, I think the point of that is supposed to be to make people more willing to party priests, though I agree that 150% is a bit much.