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US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - ImagineAll - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:I'm sorry but what are you taking me for? Even a 5th grader has the ability to establish what was meant by maspan vs what was meant by you.You kind of just restated what he himself already said. Just sayin'
Which we established and you have yet to concede.
This supports your indirect blame by the administration which has done absolutely nothing to get this effect. It's his responsbility to deal with it, he nor any administration, and only can apologize for them, as he had no indirect impact towards any of those soldiers, orders or ortherwise that led to that. In fact the administration is clearly against it.
Once again, contradicts the logic you are trying to use in order to back your statement up, which you were promptly educated.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - KhainiWest - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:The fact that these events occur means that there is a clear flaw in the system.
This discredits you to the fullest degree. What exactly is the system may I ask? Do you even know? lol. You have no idea of the mentality of war, what it can do too a person, what you have to do too simply make sure that war doesn't come to our shore. It'll drive a man crazy commiting the things most kids your age easily sway around on call of duty. There's nothing wrong with the system, it's the fact people are becoming more ignorant, arrogant, less sympathetic, which is our society, not our government, not our military.
A human is the problem, war has been around since? uh. I don't know forever, no matter what system you use, no matter who leads, the only sense is the sense of free for all and if you have enough people to topple the other.
You lose your concious because you have too, not because people tell you too.
@above
Did you even read lol. What's clear is clear, what isn't that he seems to be scapegoating is he's blaming the establishment for the actions of the soldiers. That's the point I'm trying to make. The responsibility he's implying is that it was the blame of our system that led to this.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Corn - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:I'm not so sure about that. If we didnt jump into a couple illegal wars, then we probably wouldnt have foreigners to torture. Step 1 to prevention would be to limit war (something Bush and Obama have made no attempt to do). Step 2, would obviously be to consistantly order your Generals and higher level officials to not accept torture and inhumane acts (something Bush did the opposite of, he ordered torture) and order them to constantly remind all lower level officials.
Next, it would be important to properly screen all applicants. If you find that an applicant is unfit and immoral, then dont accept them into the Armed Forces.
Of course, these are just a few small things, and also I should mention that the entire responsibility is not only put on Obama. The responsibility is on all commanding officiers. The fact that these events occur means that there is a clear flaw in the system.
You've never met pimentos in your life have you? Want me to be an pimento right now?
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - KhainiWest - 2011-03-22
Water boarding is a pretty platypus version of torture. It's a mental thing, I see no problem with it, the guy walks away unscathed, only thing he'd be scared of is swimming. Oh how inhumane.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Anonymous Moose - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:Did you even read lol. What's clear is clear, what isn't that he seems to be scapegoating is he's blaming the establishment for the actions of the soldiers. That's the point I'm trying to make. The responsibility he's implying is that it was the blame of our system that led to this.
I'm only saying that our military clearly has not taken the proper steps to uphold the law and their legal obligations to the Geneva Convention (which is their responsibility), and the fact that these attrocities still occur and the fact that the Obama Administration is expanding guantanamo is just a clear sign that nothing has changed over the years.
And having an ineffective system doesnt exactly mean the system is to blame. It only means that the system needs improvements and/or changes.
@above: I would assume that you have no idea how frightening drowning is. Its one of the most frightening things a human can experience according to those that almost drowned.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - KhainiWest - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:I'm only saying that our military clearly has not taken the proper steps to uphold the law and their legal obligations to the Geneva Convention (which is their responsibility), and the fact that these attrocities still occur and the fact that the Obama Administration is expanding guantanamo is just a clear sign that nothing has changed over the years.
And having an ineffective system doesnt exactly mean the system is to blame. It only means that the system needs improvements and/or changes.
I'm sure if you had any more idea's on how to improve how to train our military, with your limited to no experience, they'd love to hear them. Hey I know, let's start by revamping the school system so we don't have as many drop outs, mentally instable military guys out there who don't give a pineapple about anything but the signing bonus. Or maybe dump more money into the military funds so that being a soldier isn't all about medium salary life risking bull pomegranate and make it so college students want to fight for our country! Hell let's have a draft!
Jesus christ there's a difference between having an opinion and having bull headed critisism.
@Above
Who care's? You know what's more frightening? Our security with no information and some terrorist killing my family. pineapple it, I hope they do drown him to death, the only good that persons life is the information shut between his lips.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Anonymous Moose - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:Hell let's have a draft!How would this help? Or any of the other options you mentioned help prevent our soldiers from breaking the law? Sound like you are just going on a mad rant here.
Quote:Who care's? You know what's more frightening? Our security with no information and some terrorist killing my family. pineapple it, I hope they do drown him to death, the only good that persons life is the information shut between his lips.Actually, you might have a point... assuming we could prove that those people were indeed terrorists. Not one person in Guantanamo was ever proven to be a terrorist as far as i know.
You should also keep in mind that the patriot act allows the US government to call almost any crime an act of terrorism and allows the government to illegally detain just about anyone they accuse of a crime as a terrorist. Considering this fact, i doubt most of the people tortured would have useful information. This reminds me, we do have a second problem. We are potentially wasting valuable time and resources.
Edit: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - KhainiWest - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:How would this help? Or any of the other options you mentioned help prevent our soldiers from breaking the law? Sound like you are just going on a mad rant here.
Then what? How do you expect to get "military bred" individuals? Should we have a new class in school? The point is, there has to be a line to who and who we won't accept. Nearly any person should have the right to fight for our country. What changes a man is the actions he has to take, which are standard. The only way to avoid this inhumane trophy flaunting is get rid of killing, get rid of anything that causes harm. We can't do that. All the military can do to prepare you is make you lack that sympathy, which has that backlash, but is obviously something no branch of the forces condones, and makes that perfectly clear.
These soldiers did nothing more than commit a civil crime that involved murdering and mutulating the victums corpse. It's a choice that falls on the individual not on their employer, maybe their parents though circumstances have to be pretty damn bad, but none the less the responsibility falls on the individual.
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Actually, you might have a point... assuming we could prove that those people were indeed terrorists. Not one person in Guantanamo was ever proven to be a terrorist as far as i know.
You should also keep in mind that the patriot act allows the US government to call almost any crime an act of terrorism and allows the government to illegally detain just about anyone they accuse of a crime as a terrorist. Considering this fact, i doubt most of the people tortured would have useful information. This reminds me, we do have a second problem. We are potentially wasting valuable time and resources.
I'd rather play it safe and sorry, and I seriously doubt the government would randomly waste their money detaining you over nothing. It was either provoked or justified, I can gurrantee that.
YourSource Wrote:A flight attendant confronted Freeman, who responded by hurling a few profanities and throwing what remained of a can of tomato juice on the floor.
Justified, peach needed to learn some manners, and conducted child abuse.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Stereo - 2011-03-22
Corn Wrote:Of course he's legally responsible but you have to understand no US President in the frigging world could've prevented that.
No, it's clearly the President's responsibility to actively monitor all 3 million members of the United States Armed Forces, to make sure they're not doing anything illegal.
I mean, anything less would be lazy, and irresponsible. He's the President, ultimately every single bad thing those 3 million men and women do reflects a failure on his part.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Anonymous Moose - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:Then what? How do you expect to get "military bred" individuals? Should we have a new class in school? The point is, there has to be a line to who and who we won't accept. Nearly any person should have the right to fight for our country. What changes a man is the actions he has to take, which are standard. The only way to avoid this inhumane trophy flaunting is get rid of killing, get rid of anything that causes harm. We can't do that. All the military can do to prepare you is make you lack that sympathy, which has that backlash, but is obviously something no branch of the forces condones, and makes that perfectly clear.I just have a certain expectation that our troops should be moral enough to not perform war crimes. I guess expecting our troops to respect basic human rights is just too much.
Quote:These soldiers did nothing more than commit a civil crime that involved murdering and mutulating the victums corpse. It's a choice that falls on the individual not on their employer, maybe their parents though circumstances have to be pretty damn bad, but none the less the responsibility falls on the individual.Civil Crime? No, they commited a war crime.
And once again, legal responsibility falls on the commanding officers.
Quote:I'd rather play it safe and sorry, and I seriously doubt the government would randomly waste their money detaining you over nothing. It was either provoked or justified, I can gurrantee that.Or you were just muslim, or you just spanked a kid on a plane.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/23/nyregion/23detain.html
Fact is, the government wastes time and resources all the time.
@above: You do realize that the president has subordinates that can help him, right? He isnt exactly alone in his responsibility to uphold the law.
And yes it does show his failure to keep his promise of ending torture (well, guantanamo showed that, but this is another nail in the coffin).
But Lazy is not the right term. Irresponsible and Negligent come to my mind.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - KhainiWest - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:I just have a certain expectation that our troops should be moral enough to not perform war crimes. I guess expecting our troops to respect basic human rights is just too much.
Certain expectations are obviosly seen and excersised, until they are put in a position which cannot be reinacted. Serial killers are normally quiet humble mechanic's, small time jobs, you'd think such a person with such a position of social interaction would not have the instinct to not plot to kill them. Those are called unforseen circumstances, vocabulary you seem to have lost.
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Civil Crime? No, they commited a war crime.
And once again, legal responsibility falls on the commanding officers.
It was a metaphor for a reason. Although the labels are the same, what is the real difference? Race? Different continents? The point that swooped over you is any man can live two personalities and any man can mutilate any body no matter the circumstances.
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Or you were just muslim, or you just spanked a kid on a plane.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-airline-felonies20-2009jan20,0,5468299.story
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/23/nyregion/23detain.html
Fact is, the government wastes time and resources all the time.
I'm not going to get into racial profiling with you however I have no quarlms with it in these type of circumstances.
-snip-
Taking this last part out because you have to be mocking him.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Twilight - 2011-03-22
Business as usual.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Anonymous Moose - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:Certain expectations are obviosly seen and excersised, until they are put in a position which cannot be reinacted. Serial killers are normally quiet humble mechanic's, small time jobs, you'd think such a person with such a position of social interaction would not have the instinct to not plot to kill them. Those are called unforseen circumstances, vocabulary you seem to have lost.And in this circumstance, no 3rd party is legally responsible. In the military, this is not the case.
Quote:It was a metaphor for a reason. Although the labels are the same, what is the real difference? Race? Different continents? The point that swooped over you is any man can live two personalities and any man can mutilate any body no matter the circumstances.Different countries does make a large difference. Being in the military, and a represenative of our entire country makes a major difference too. The fact that we have an international treaty forbidding the acts also puts this on a higher level than a civil crime, whether we agree with that fact or not.
And Multiple Personality Disorder is very rare, and often includes a very harsh and stressful childhood. Out of all of the cases of war crimes, how many are commited by people with MPD?
Quote:I'm not going to get into racial profiling with you however I have no quarlms with it in these type of circumstances.
-snip-
Taking this last part out because you have to be mocking him.
Does this mean you have no problems with spanking a child being an act of terrorism?
Quote:Business as usual.Which is probably the second reason I am enraged over this. This should not be business as usual. This should be a rare to non-existant occurance, that when occurs requires swift action, investigation (to see if a commanding officer ordered the torture or if the soldiers acted alone), and apology (although that wont do much to solve the problem, it will bring some comfort that the government acknowledges the problem).
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Derosis - 2011-03-22
MasPan Wrote:He is responsible for their actions yes - military personnel are, in a sense, representatives of the United States, and their entire chain of command, all the way up to Obama, is responsible for their actions. A soldier killing a foreign civilian could reasonably be grounds for war, depending on circumstances, regardless of whether the soldier is acting of their own accord or under orders.
However, these soldiers were rogue, acting of their own accord in blatant disregard for orders or morals. While Obama is responsible for their actions, he is not at fault, nor to blame for them. However, the burden of dealing with their repercussions does fall on him.
While he is responsible, he is not to blame.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
also I tl;dr'd this post, but I went to the link, It really doesn't look like their posing, more like a wiki leaks thing or they're just moving bodies.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - kanevaldier - 2011-03-22
DustBunny Wrote:Water boarding is a pretty platypus version of torture. It's a mental thing, I see no problem with it, the guy walks away unscathed, only thing he'd be scared of is swimming. Oh how inhumane.
WOW. That is the most rediculous statement I have seen you make thus far. Have you ever even been waterboarded? I think not. Dont talk about things you have no idea about. It is a very effective torture method. It also does do physical harm as well as mental. I have read every statement made in this thread and I believe that you are missing or misinterpreting other posts.
Is the president responsible? Yes. As commander and chief of the military he must accept that role.
Is the president taking effect measures to limit such acts? I say no. When he took office, one of the promises he made was to pull or troops out of Iraq, by October of his first year I might add, and we are still there. He also stated that our role in Afganistan would be brief and we would not be there any longer than absoulutly needed. The idea was to help the Afgan government to establish its own forces so they could effectively sustain their own goverment and protect its citizens. That has yet to happen, in fact the general who was running the campaign stated that the goals were not attainable without boosting the personel signifigantly. Now we are in libya and who knows what exactly is going to happen there.
The next part is that the military leadership, who are in the direct chain of command for these soldiers, must also answer for not having made sure that there was enough checks and balances in place to prevent such things from even occuring. Anyone who has served in the armed forces knows that following orders is the most important thing otherwise people die. When you serve side by side with someone you have to trust your life in their hands and vice versa. Yes things happen and sometimes even get out of control, but if the unit commander allowed this to happen then he is just as guilty as they are. Anyone in the military who has a command role goes through a psycological examination as part of these checks and balances. If they dont make it through that then they dont get a command. Thats part of what it takes to be in command. Obama has never been in the military and his policies for the military are very reflective of that since he almost never takes their advice. He instead relies upon the people he appointed to his cabinet to advise him and in many cases publicly stated that he himself would make decisions on what to do with our military. (perticularly pertaining to afganistan and his conversation with the former general in charge there)
Please refrain from makeing comments like that in the future. Thanks in advance.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - kanevaldier - 2011-03-22
Derosis Wrote:Couldn't have said it better myself.
also I tl;dr'd this post, but I went to the link, It really doesn't look like their posing, more like a wiki leaks thing or they're just moving bodies.
That was my take on it too. Also the body in the photo didnt look like it was dead, but rather malnurished.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Corn - 2011-03-22
Anonymous Moose Wrote:Which is probably the second reason I am enraged over this. This should not be business as usual. This should be a rare to non-existant occurance, that when occurs requires swift action, investigation (to see if a commanding officer ordered the torture or if the soldiers acted alone), and apology (although that wont do much to solve the problem, it will bring some comfort that the government acknowledges the problem).Either you or me totally misinterpreted that quote.
And this is a goddamm rare occurance. I'm more surprised why this doesn't happen more often with all of these assholes in society.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Erebus - 2011-03-22
Does anyone (AM) not take into account personal responsibility? In all honestly the ONLY way Obama could be blamed is if he directly hired the guy who told the soldiers that what they were doing is ok (or did not prevent it when it was done which is basically the same thing). It is possible to blame the administration through a trickle down of red tape and paperwork (Obama hired the guy, who hired the guy, who hired the guy, who told the soldiers to do this) but to blame only Obama is insane it's no different then saying the the heads of the US Department of Education are responsible for the Columbine shootings.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Corn - 2011-03-22
By the way can we stop using such vague terms as "responsible." It heavily implies that it was within Obama's power to stop it.
re·spon·si·ble
[ri-spon-suh-buhl] Show IPA
adjective
1.
answerable or accountable, as for something within one's power, control, or management (often followed by to or for ): He is responsible to the president for his decisions.
2.
involving accountability or responsibility: a responsible position.
3.
chargeable with being the author, cause, or occasion of something (usually followed by for ): Termites were responsible for the damage.
4.
having a capacity for moral decisions and therefore accountable; capable of rational thought or action: The defendant is not responsible for his actions.
5.
able to discharge obligations or pay debts.
6.
reliable or dependable, as in meeting debts, conducting business dealings, etc.
7.
(of a government, member of a government, government agency, or the like) answerable to or serving at the discretion of an elected legislature or the electorate.
US Soldiers Pose With Dead Civilian Corpses - Anonymous Moose - 2011-03-22
Erebus Wrote:no different then saying the the heads of the US Department of Education are responsible for the Columbine shootings.The military is different. In the military we have a little something called the Geneva Convention that creates a legal obligation for all commanding officers. This is not the case for the Department of Education.