JoeTang Wrote:I hate taxes. I pay taxes. I am a hypocrite.

CarrionCrow Wrote:Hypocrisy? No.
However it is arguably pretty retarded to super fund the latest class and the quit in disgust over something the game has been doing without exception ever since the advent of the potential system. For years.

If this guy Lim Goon just liquidated all his stockpiled NX this does not apply. Somehow I doubt it though.

CarrionCrow Wrote:Hypocrisy? No.
However it is arguably pretty retarded to super fund the latest class and the quit in disgust over something the game has been doing without exception ever since the advent of the potential system. For years.

If this guy Lim Goon just liquidated all his stockpiled NX this does not apply. Somehow I doubt it though.

MountLag Wrote:You're making some pretty big assumptions there about his attitude and whether or not that's the reason he is quitting. Just saying.

JoeTang Wrote:I hate taxes. I pay taxes. I am a hypocrite.

Alloy Wrote:So you hate having your streets, and your policemen, and your firemen, and buildings and society around you?

Because if you don't hate those, yes, it'd make you one. Or maybe not hypocrite, just spoiled in a way. You just hates the means, not the outcome. Means that you can't change. But what if you could change them if you hate them so much? If you could just not pay taxes, like many other people, and it wouldn't be ilegal? So that their lower income would make them change and had to rethink where to get money from?

Not playing Mapletory isn't ilegal. It's what he's doing right now, quitting and saying this, sure, but after feeding the fire for years.

You decide.

Alloy Wrote:So you hate having your streets, and your policemen, and your firemen, and buildings and society around you?

Because if you don't hate those, yes, it'd make you one. Or maybe not hypocrite, just spoiled in a way. You just hates the means, not the outcome. Means that you can't change. But what if you could change them if you hate them so much? If you could just not pay taxes, like many other people, and it wouldn't be ilegal? So that their lower income would make them change and had to rethink where to get money from?

Not playing Mapletory isn't ilegal. It's what he's doing right now, quitting and saying this, sure, but after feeding the fire for years.

You decide.

Quote:Hypocrisy is the state of pretending to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs, principles, etc., that one does not actually have.[1] Hypocrisy involves the deception of others and is thus a kind of lie.[1]
Hypocrisy is not simply failing to practice those virtues that one preaches. Samuel Johnson made this point when he wrote about the misuse of the charge of "hypocrisy" in Rambler No. 14:
Nothing is more unjust, however common, than to charge with hypocrisy him that expresses zeal for those virtues which he neglects to practice; since he may be sincerely convinced of the advantages of conquering his passions, without having yet obtained the victory, as a man may be confident of the advantages of a voyage, or a journey, without having courage or industry to undertake it, and may honestly recommend to others, those attempts which he neglects himself.[2]
Thus, an alcoholic's advocating temperance, for example, would not be considered an act of hypocrisy as long as the alcoholic made no pretense of sobriety.

hadriel Wrote:Hating taxes != hating what the taxes fund. Your point essentially becomes something like: Because I hate my job but I do my job, therefore I hate what my job pays i.e. my family and myself therefore I'm a hypocrite. Not necessarily all wrong (you could hate yourself, you might hate that society...) but not quite reasonable either.

Lim Goon is a funded person. Ok. He is ridiculously funded. Ok. Because he is ridiculously funded, he contributed to the rich-poor gap. Yes no? I'm not so sure whether the means or the end is to blame, if I even want to blame anything, regardless of how he funded himself - NX or sheer hard work or some in-between.

Curtiss Wrote:From Wikipedia:



In the first place, Joe's example was sarcastic as you can do something and hate it without being a hypocrite so long as you do have other reasons to do it and you don't preach virtues you don't have. In other words, as Limgoon commented that there's a huge gap between the rich and poor and how Maple is created without thought without saying that no one should spend time and money on it, he can't be said to be a hypocrite since he's not actually advocating anything while doing the opposite. Additionally, you can't say that he's feeding the fire because you can't link him alone to the current state of Maple; there's a Xenon that already beat him to doing a Chaos Vellum solo.

Alloy Wrote:1. He paid them. He hates the gap between the payers and the non payers. Therefore he is supporting something he hates by giving them money to keep doing it. Wording is just a way to try to get off with it. You can choose whatever word you want, but he did help towards what he hates. And forgive me if I don't fully comprehend those big words on the wikipedia example, english is not my first language.

2. A village throws wood at a small fire, the fire gets huge. Nobody to blame. Not even the farmer with the truck full of logs. Sounds reasonable.

Alloy Wrote:If you hate your job, you have two options:

1. Complain about it, and that's it.
2. Complain about it and fight for something you really want.

The only case #1 isn't hipocritical is when there's no other option. Lim Goon had that option for a loooong time.



1. He paid them. He hates the gap between the payers and the non payers. Therefore he is supporting something he hates by giving them money to keep doing it. Wording is just a way to try to get off with it. You can choose whatever word you want, but he did help towards what he hates. And forgive me if I don't fully comprehend those big words on the wikipedia example, english is not my first language.

2. A village throws wood at a small fire, the fire gets huge. Nobody to blame. Not even the farmer with the truck full of logs. Sounds reasonable.

Curtiss Wrote:1. That might be the case for MapleSEA because a lot of factors make it pretty much impossible to even be mid-funded without huge amounts of cash, but despite the fact that KMS does have hackers and botters their economy is still good enough that a superb bosser that made a killing from bosses last time could in fact fund themselves without much cash. I used to think Limgoon was one of those super-funded Maplers until evidence showed otherwise since I never knew that he organized boss runs before this thread was posted and if he really did build himself up he has every right to say that since some other people at KMS did the exact thing you're saying feeds the fire and who knows, maybe that Xenon that beat him to the first successful Chaos Vellum solo really did just that.

The point I'm making here is that he's not being hypocritical simply by stating how he hates the gap; he would need to hate it and put in tons of funding for no reason and then deplore that reality since he'd truly be saying one thing and doing another and making no amends to lessen it.

2. How is it the farmer's fault if the village took the logs he could have been intending to use for something else and threw it in? One person alone isn't responsible for the state of the game, much like how MSEA can't blame PerfectShang for high cash prices even if he spent SGD 1800 on a Cygnus overall just to get back the same stats at the end.

hadriel Wrote:3. Don't complain. You are dissatisfied, but you're not complaining yet. Hypocritical? Doubt it. Complain and quit i.e. washing your hands off Maple. Hypocritical? Not really.

So what if he had that choice for a long time? A choice comes to you when you have to make a decision, which in turn comes when you encounter a situation. It is unwise to assume that he faced that situation all along.

I don't quite care what he did or did not do. The point is that it is not fair to call a person hypocritical if he is on one end of the spectrum and he says that the system is polarised. That's it, and that's it. He has no obligations to compress the spectrum or bring himself down. Did he cause the spectrum to become polarised by his actions? I don't think so, because everyone is climbing, and there will always be polarisation in play in this game (and in life too). Some people climb faster, some people climb slower. If his actions of climbing cause him to become (part of) the cause of the polarisation, then it is absolutely unfair to call him a hypocrite when all he's doing is the same as what everyone else is doing.

Very simple. All Lim Goon is saying is that he strongly dislikes the game for its shortcomings, and decides to leave it to do something better, and that the game needs to change to improve the polarisation. The key thing is that he left when he first said those words. He didn't say those words, and kept on playing.

I don't know, and I don't care, if he has reflected on the Maple situation previously or not, whether publicly or personally. But based on his words alone, and the knowledge that he used whatever ways to be at the top (or amongst the top), he cannot be called a hypocrite because it is not his actions, but rather the system, that is the cause of the disparity. The disparity is an outcome - he's lamenting at the outcome. He went through the process that everyone went through and the methods that everyone is open to. Why is he called a hypocrite for using everything that's available, if perhaps to some extreme result?

tl;dr Too many assumptions, not enough logic.

Hadriel

Alloy Wrote:The "farmer" (Person witha truck full of wood) only puts his own wood on the fire. But it does increase the fire more than a single person throwing one log. Word it as you wish, but the fire gets bigger with each log.

Curtiss Wrote:I don't know why you keep saying 'word it as I wish' as if that's something that matters in this argument. I'm just saying that Limgoon is not advocating anything or preaching a virtue in his quitting speech so by the definition of what constitutes a hypocrite he can say those things, hate it and quit without being one since he's acting consistently with what he says: Maple Story sucks, the gap is too big, I'm now at the part where I might not get any further so I might as well quit when I've beaten the toughest boss. The italics denote what I make of his words, he's basically at the point where he thinks he's going to have to actually spend a couple hundred bucks if the new boss is out and he's finally at the point where the hardest boss is down and going further might compromise his ideology so he checks out.

hadriel Wrote:Or to put it in another way, "I don't like this game anymore [insert reasons] therefore I quit."

Hadriel

KhainiWest Wrote:...Limgoon reached the damage cap, and the last boss, who he can defeat, doesn't reward him with anything.

IImaplers Wrote:That seems to be the reason he quit more than anything else imo.

Curtiss Wrote:And it's a wise decision in retrospect since Chaos RA bosses can now only be defeated once a week once the KMST patch goes live. Imagine working your ass off fighting all the bosses and spending months on end funding yourself without real money in only to not get a single reward for your efforts.

If at anything I'd say it sealed the deal for him to quit.