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+---- Thread: Fixing Paladins (/showthread.php?tid=1537)
Fixing Paladins - ZartMorder - 2008-07-29
Wani Wrote:Of all the ideas for Paladins, this one has to actually be the best. Paladins shouldn't be as good as other characters on holy-weak monsters, they should be much stronger. I also like the idea of making the magic boost from charges a party skill. Make them not so bad on neutral monsters, and make them slightly better on element-weak monsters.
Perhaps another good idea would be to modify Holy Charge so it has a passive skill, increasing the strength of their other charges?
That was option 2b.
Fixing Paladins - Providence - 2008-07-29
What if they made it so INT & M.ATK significantly affect the damage of a charged weapon, and then decrease the percentage some as to not make them overpowered? That'd also mean they'd gain lots more stats than a DK/Sader from things like earrings, ZHelms and HT necklaces. That'd also fit the archetype of a Paladin.
Fixing Paladins - Radius-86 - 2008-08-14
I kind of skimmed through this thread but hmm... my quick opinion is this.
I picked Page since in beta for four reasons:
1. I liked the addition of adding elements to melee combat
2. The class is known for being inefficient in damage against a variety of monsters, which motivated me to make my character extremely strong to surprise other people (a.k.a. playing with low tiers and kicking ass in a fighting game)
3. The low population of the class
4. The difficulty in training the class makes it MUCH easier to be the top of your class
I actually want the road to be tougher for Paladins - everything good and bad about the White Knight is everything I loved about it. I never had White Knight complaints, but I didn't enjoy Paladin as much because it was easier. White Knights were somewhat inferior, and consequently part of the reward of playing White Knights was to try to be the last man standing. Or maybe I'm just kind of sadistic.
One thing that I have always wanted since beta though (and I think it's actually in the game now, since Pink Bean has it?) is neutral resist. This doesn't improve our class' damage (which is good cause that's not what is needed). What it does is it gives us training areas unique to Paladins (and Mages as well) and bars out the physical attackers... the exact opposite of what monsters that resist all elements do to Paladins and Mages. I also think this gives the two skills Inferno and Freezing Arrow (for the archer classes) more practical use as well.
Essentially this gives our class something that the other classes can't have. Which is good, because currently Heros have everything Paladins (and Dark Knights) have plus more (Heros have better overall damage than Paladins, their damage is not limited by Berserk and they don't attack as slow as Dark Knights). Hermits have everything Archers have and more (Hermits have better avoid and mobility). Mages suck. Give the Paladins, Archers, and Mages something back hm?
Fixing Paladins - LoyalOath - 2008-08-14
You know Darius, what you just said kinda summed up what being a WK was all about, I remember when I asked you for advice about training you told me that my job was to take the shaft because nobody else wanted to. and that summed up my job. The least desirable and hardest area of the map, which back in the day was having to solo the bottom of grims after the drop nerf with no drops no heal and a large loss when nobody else wanted to, but as an unsung hero I guess. I wouldn't say the training was hard though, it was fun because we did what nobody else would do. It would be nice perhaps, if our charges were more balanced but we always took the shaft so why change it now
Fixing Paladins - D-F1am3 - 2008-08-14
I also agree with darius, I hated classes who always have it easy. What's fun about it? Plus I love elemental attacks haha.
I've heard people talk about neutral resist for along time, it was a really great idea because who else would come in for once D: Paladins.
Sometimes though, I want some neutral charge in the mix.
Fixing Paladins - wobbufet - 2008-08-14
Providence Wrote:What if they made it so INT & M.ATK significantly affect the damage of a charged weapon, and then decrease the percentage some as to not make them overpowered? That'd also mean they'd gain lots more stats than a DK/Sader from things like earrings, ZHelms and HT necklaces. That'd also fit the archetype of a Paladin.
This seems like an awesome idea to me, it gives paladins/wks that extra twist that just makes them a fun class
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-08-14
Radius-86 Wrote:One thing that I have always wanted since beta though (and I think it's actually in the game now, since Pink Bean has it?) is neutral resist. This doesn't improve our class' damage (which is good cause that's not what is needed). What it does is it gives us training areas unique to Paladins (and Mages as well) and bars out the physical attackers... the exact opposite of what monsters that resist all elements do to Paladins and Mages. I also think this gives the two skills Inferno and Freezing Arrow (for the archer classes) more practical use as well.
Essentially this gives our class something that the other classes can't have. Which is good, because currently Heros have everything Paladins (and Dark Knights) have plus more (Heros have better overall damage than Paladins, their damage is not limited by Berserk and they don't attack as slow as Dark Knights). Hermits have everything Archers have and more (Hermits have better avoid and mobility). Mages suck. Give the Paladins, Archers, and Mages something back hm?
Mmm. I generally think that Paladins (after actually a lot of thinking) trains faster at Skelegons with a Bishop. Bishop do top, you rush +acb the complete pomegranate out of the bottom parts. Yeah, you might not be a "ong max dmg lolzsldldsk haahah"-hero, but not killing the monster in two ACBs have its advantages:
- Assuming you got rush 30, you're moving around the map wayyy faster than a hero. ACB, rush, ACB, rush... If you're in a corner with some Skelegons, just bump into them and rush them out.
But indeed, neutral resistant could be handy against some monsters. But strictly speaking I don't think it's any need to implement it.
Fixing Paladins - Dervish - 2008-09-10
What needs to happen is for Paladins to just (by way of changing a current skill or otherwise) somehow get all of their charges raised up to 140% or 150% or so, and then to start...
Wait for it...
Wait for it...
GIVING US SOME MORE pineappleING BOSSES THAT ACTUALLY HAVE WEAKNESSES!
Anyway, to continue what I was saying, Holy Charge is almost as strong as Ice is, on something actually weak to it, why? Because it freezes? Who gives a pomegranate, we have and use ACB, which stuns most of the time anyway, and doesn't rely on what charge we use. Freezing matters so little that it shouldn't be used as an argument. By evening out the charges at Holy Charge's percentage, you actually further that versatility that Paladins supposedly have rather than forcing us to think "pineapple, I can't use Holy? God dammit, my damage is going to be complete pomegranate".
Fixing Paladins - Stereo - 2008-09-13
I'd like it if they gave STR some useful secondary attributes, maybe make it like int where it adds some +DEF per point, or make it improve "armor penetration" (skills less affected by monster wdef as str goes up). Of course that affects warriors in general, but I think a 400-500 damage reduction on 4th job range warriors or a similar increased damage would be very welcome to all the Warrior classes. It's not really a problem of Paladins being wholly worse than the other Warriors, it's just that Warriors are already subpar in general so you have to be well optimised to beat (especially hp-washed) Bowmasters or Night Lords.
'course given Blast barely beats Brandish on single Holy monsters it could do with some improvements. Either better alternate elements or a better base that makes it dominant in more fields. Being able to hit for slightly less damage to 1 Fire monster than a Hero can hit to 3 Fire monsters is really not good enough >_>
Fixing Paladins - Russt - 2008-09-13
But you can hit a good deal more to 6 Fire monsters. Then again, good luck finding 6.
Anyway, doesn't STR already reduce damage?
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-09-14
Russt Wrote:But you can hit a good deal more to 6 Fire monsters. Then again, good luck finding 6.
Anyway, doesn't STR already reduce damage?
Wyverns, Kentaurs.
STR reduce damage. if you have 1000 str, you reduce the damage by 1 (?) or so.
Fixing Paladins - Stereo - 2008-09-14
As far as I could determine, it's something on the lines of 3000 STR doubles reduction due to wdef (to 1 damage per def point - or about 400-500 extra reduced on decent level monsters). More typically you can expect 600-1100 STR on a 4th job character, which is only bringing it up from 0.50 to 0.55-0.65 per point, for maybe 80-100 extra reduction (compared to having no STR at all).
However, they did some kind of equalization based on the "normal" class STR, so the other classes get more damage reduction without STR. A str-less warrior takes far more damage than any other class (literally 200+ damage from Snails at high levels)
And you're right, against 6 Fire Targets, ACB totals 3780% while Brandish is only doing around 3000% to 3 of the targets. Against 5 targets it's almost even (3150%), against 1~4 Brandish is stronger and obviously does not stun.
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-09-15
Stereo Wrote:And you're right, against 6 Fire Targets, ACB totals 3780% while Brandish is only doing around 3000% to 3 of the targets. Against 5 targets it's almost even (3150%), against 1~4 Brandish is stronger and obviously does not stun.
Against 4-6. The player would on average use the same time against 4 monsters as 6, because brandish hits only 3 at a time. So in theory, abc > brandish at groups of 4 or higher.
However, that's not all. ACB, as now proven, is faster than Brandish, so take this into account as well.
Fixing Paladins - modular - 2008-09-15
Radius-86 Wrote:Or maybe I'm just kind of sadistic.
i think its that you hardcore motherfucker
same for the rest of you too
Fixing Paladins - CrazyNomad - 2008-09-16
(D-_-)-D Wrote:Be liek diablo 2 and have charges be party skills.
People will flock to pally's just like the flock to SE mules.
Also, a dark charge that's strong against neutrals would help >_>
yeah, paladin in all others game are the party warrior class but not in ms >_>
charges should add the element based atack to the party like a aura, would be very usefull =)
and it would be cool if the charge actually make an animation while charged up, like zerk
btw, i think arguing here wont help in nothing, we should just log a ticket and see what nexon will asnwer
edit: and actually fix the bast range, so we can actually use 1h sword >_>
Fixing Paladins - Lynel - 2008-09-16
CrazyNomad Wrote:yeah, paladin in all others game are the party warrior class but not in ms >_>I'm pretty sure most of us created our paladins with the expectation that we'd be a party class. Nexon loves us so much.
Fixing Paladins - Stereo - 2008-09-16
No, I created my Page with the expectation that it would be almost as good as a Fighter >_> I didn't even know the 3rd job skills. I just wanted to use a Golden Mole.<<
Fixing Paladins - LoyalOath - 2008-09-16
Paladins aren't broken, we do fine. If anything they should just give us more bosses that we would be useful at, although I have a bad feeling about pink been with that physical resist would be kinda funny for a paladin who has a charge on to do even less damage than normal xD
Fixing Paladins - Nikkey - 2008-09-16
Lynel Wrote:I'm pretty sure most of us created our paladins with the expectation that we'd be a party class. Nexon loves us so much.
Some made white knights for the uniqueness.
Fixing Paladins - Dervish - 2008-09-16
LoyalOath Wrote:Paladins aren't broken, we do fine. If anything they should just give us more bosses that we would be useful at, although I have a bad feeling about pink been with that physical resist would be kinda funny for a paladin who has a charge on to do even less damage than normal xD
A class is broken when their whole schtick is going after elemental weaknesses to do more damage, and YET they do less than Heroes on single-targets (something they're supposed to excel at!) using half of their charges, and barely being stronger with another. And that's not even getting into the whole lack of light/holy-weak bosses, much less elementally-weak bosses period.