On the Issue of Power Creep and How It Relates to Nexon

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Originally Posted by Rotosound

Are you playing the same game as everyone else here?

Words like "probably" and "top percentage" without statistical data aren't gonna make you go far, kid.

Your fatal flaw is that you are assuming this is only from a perspective of possibility, not plausibility. Yes, you can do all these things without potential (well, ok, some of these things, as you dismissed your own point when talking about bosses); is it what you do? Is it what anyone does? I don't know a single player who still plays Maple like it's pre-BB because everyone's gone with the flow of the game. Why? Because you can't play old Maple since there is no old Maple [that isn't a PS].

You just affirmed the problem of power creep in your final sentence btw, so I really don't understand the point you're trying to make. Perhaps you didn't understand the video or didn't watch it all the way through.

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Statistical data? Well just talking about my experiences with Scania, Pre-bb but post potential my mules were still good enough without any % stat gear to get invited to bosses, and my mage was one of the only ones who could solo the bombstage in Alien PQ meaning I'd get into multiple PQ's daily.
In Nova, with people with months ahead of me in level/gear me and my friends were able to soon take over the server being the strongest/richest/fastest lvers what ever title, people still refer to our character as The God of Nova. There still is old maple, you can use pre-bb gear to great effect compared to a player who hasn't payed out the ass in cubes. And in my last sentence about power creep, I admit that is power creep but wanna know why? Nexon can't balance the game around the power money/cubes give you not around the content they put out.

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Originally Posted by Aircalibur421

I'm not saying that the top percent from the before time isn't still in the top percent, but honestly? I find it a bit unlikely until I see some pretty substantial evidence.

And sure you can kill most bosses that you can't make a profit on, but are there really many other bosses worth killing in game at this point? Zak and maybe HT you can solo without funds but it's a tough call.

I still feel like there's a point in MapleStory where there is just so little you can do with in-game currency. I'm not saying it's impossible, it's just tedious to the point of ridicule.

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That is my whole point, you can play maple without spending a dime on it and still experience every boss/pq. And

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And sure you can kill most bosses that you can't make a profit on, but are there really many other bosses worth killing in game at this point? Zak and maybe HT you can solo without funds but it's a tough call.

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You are not supposed to solo anything in a multiplayer game.

Your points are... obscure to the point of confoundedness. The discussion is on power creep.

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Originally Posted by Rotosound

Your points are... obscure to the point of confoundedness. The discussion is on power creep.

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Maplestory doesn't suffer from powercreep, maple suffers from taking the social aspect out of an MMO. Pre-potential it was an accomplishment to solo anything. Now you are expected to solo everything, but someone from pre-potential can still do anything ingame. The only reason it feels otherwise is because you either solo or duo every boss for maximum profits not for the fun or challenge

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Originally Posted by yo72

Maplestory doesn't suffer from powercreep

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Originally Posted by Dark Link

Maple doesn't suffer from powercreep?
Making old and existing moves go from "hit X times doing Y damage" to "Hit X+1 times doing Y+1000 damage" is definitely powercreep.

Hell, the video @0:45 -> 0:52 is the very definition of that.

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Originally Posted by Dark Link

Maple doesn't suffer from powercreep?
Making old and existing moves go from "hit X times doing Y damage" to "Hit X+1 times doing Y+1000 damage" is definitely powercreep.

Hell, the video @0:45 -> 0:52 is the very definition of that.

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Powercreep is releasing a new boss/raid to make something obsolete. Everything is used ingame,
Zak is killed daily for exp+traits+helms for noobs
I can do this for everyboss but let me talk about some other stuff that people like to overlook
At level 30 people have many training places depending on personal preference or your class set
You can go to mushroom castle, train at nlc zombies, skeledogs in perion, Kerning mall, and much more. If there was powercreep the other options wouldn't even be considered. Bigger numbers=/= powercreep

And lets address the elephant in the room, Potential and new op things you can buy in the cash shop. Nexon does an AMAZING job of balancing events and everything ingame, but when it comes to anything cash related they are horrible. Name one thing ingame that is horribly inbalanced that doesn't revolve around the CS

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Originally Posted by yo72

And lets address the elephant in the room, Potential and new op things you can buy in the cash shop. Nexon does an AMAZING job of balancing events and everything ingame, but when it comes to anything cash related they are horrible. Name one thing ingame that is horribly inbalanced that doesn't revolve around the CS

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All the new classes being better, hitting harder and doing everything the other classes can do.

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Originally Posted by Manu

All the new classes being better, hitting harder and doing everything the other classes can do.

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Just remembered Mercedes/the others when I just came back for the last time tonight to reply, though they wouldn't be too much of and issue if classes were based on how the function in a party instead of hits per second because every1 hits max dmg. But balancing the game on a broken system, no way you can have a balanced game, but an easy way to fix every new class is to have class specific dmg caps based on their roles

Yo72, power creep is not just old content becoming obsolete (which, to be fair, most of the old content was obsolete the day it came out because most content that's not killing a big boss is awful reward-wise), in this case it's more about "let's make your old stuff worthless." They make new classes more powerful to get people to play the new classes and spend money on them. They make new types of potential and new cubes constantly. There's a reason why they've released 20 new classes over the past four years, and about 5 new systems to making your equipment absurdly more powerful -- people will spend boatloads on it. But they're running out of room. When their old players, the ones who will spend absurd dollars on potential, decide it's finally time to call it quits, their customer base will shrink.

No power creep in MS? of course there is power creep in MS. There are several examples of power creep in MS. LHC rendering the whole leafre and temple of time obsolete is power creep, empress gear rendering lvl 110-130 items obsolete is power creep (and in time lvl 150). Releasing 50% scrolls rendering previous scrolls and anything scrolled before that point obsolete is power creep, like someone said, new classes being released being better in almost every way than its predecessors is power creep, and I can keep going.

It is true you can do nearly anything in this game without investing much in it, but that is because of Nexon continuous push forward of the boundaries of power in this game, to the point that it they have left behind the rest of the content, that is also an example of power creep.

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Originally Posted by yo72

And lets address the elephant in the room, Potential and new op things you can buy in the cash shop. Nexon does an AMAZING job of balancing events and everything ingame, but when it comes to anything cash related they are horrible. Name one thing ingame that is horribly inbalanced that doesn't revolve around the CS

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Of course they do a good job of balancing events; you'd have to be all kinds of stupid to mess up "Get X Character to Level Y to get the Z Ring!". But, I digress.

Power creep is releasing content that quickly renders other content obsolete, and content can mean classes, areas, bosses and equipment.

Why should anyone bother investing any significant time or money into buying a PvP Armor when the Cygnus Armor is infinitely better?Why should people bother killing Zakum when no one is going to bother using its drops?

The root of this problem is that MapleStory revolves around the PvE. There is no strategic balance to it; it revolves around doing more damage to monsters to move onto the next monsters more quickly. Items and bosses have to keep up with this mentality or players won't care.

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Originally Posted by yo72

And lets address the elephant in the room, Potential and new op things you can buy in the cash shop. Nexon does an AMAZING job of balancing events and everything ingame, but when it comes to anything cash related they are horrible. Name one thing ingame that is horribly inbalanced that doesn't revolve around the CS

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Mercedes:Bowmasters

Nexon has done a good job balancing things like Shadower:DualBlade, many people prefer shadowers, many people prefer Dual Blades, and that's cool.

But when was the last time you heard anyone defend a Bowmaster against a Mercedes? You simply can't.

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Originally Posted by yo72

I admit that is power creep...

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Originally Posted by yo72

Maplestory doesn't suffer from powercreep...

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http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...09/491/6a6.gif

I'm done paying attention to you.

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Originally Posted by yo72

Maplestory doesn't suffer from powercreep, maple suffers from taking the social aspect out of an MMO. Pre-potential it was an accomplishment to solo anything. Now you are expected to solo everything, but someone from pre-potential can still do anything ingame. The only reason it feels otherwise is because you either solo or duo every boss for maximum profits not for the fun or challenge

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http://www.robotvsbadger.com/wp-cont.../TF2-prank.png

Uh... no.

You even paying attention to nonsense like the Angelic Burster? What sane designer with "balance" in mind would make a class that not just breaks the damage cap, but hits like a tactical nuke, while all other classes are hitting like missiles? That's just begging to be twinked out in potential gear, not even adding the fact all power hungry players will swarm to the class because of said power. Hell, potential gear alone was the first sign of power creep. Why? Because at that point the it all became who can throw the most money at the game and win. Sure you can still regular gear, but who would party you at that point? So to stay powerful and wanted, you gotta get the high end potential gear. Hell, I fell into that trap and blew ~$100 or so for miniscule power increases; never again.

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Originally Posted by LegendGospel

Mercedes:Bowmasters

Nexon has done a good job balancing things like Shadower:DualBlade, many people prefer shadowers, many people prefer Dual Blades, and that's cool.

But when was the last time you heard anyone defend a Bowmaster against a Mercedes? You simply can't.

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I remember when Evan's came out and pretty much destroyed any of the older mage classes except Bishops (who are now also forgotten due to Phantoms!)
Sigh~

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Originally Posted by Delicae

I remember when Evan's came out and pretty much destroyed any of the older mage classes except Bishops (who are now also forgotten due to Phantoms!)
Sigh~

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Evans were a rare class to see at higher levels back then due to their slow playstyle and archmages being able to spam ultimates.

Everyone fighting with yo72?

Not surprised.

I didn't realize just how much Nexon powercreeps when I came back from a 6 year hiatus. The only thing that hit me upon returning was, "It's been 6 years. They still don't have level 200 gear out?"

After legendary potential and Empress gear, now I know why.

If 50 atk clean armor ( or whatever the nova region equips are) isn't power creep, I don't know what is.

Can't watch the video right now because I'm at work and don't have my headphones, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what he's going to say. I'm not a big fan of Extra Credits because it's the usual sort of idealistic armchair theorizing about how games should be designed for sustainability and player enjoyment coming from someone who hasn't actually worked with the constraints involved in building a game.

That said, the issues discussed probably apply perfectly to MapleStory, because MS is one of the best examples of awful/outdated game design being successful. It uses every trick in the book to get you to spend more money. Limited time boosters to help hide the fact that the entire game is just a huge grind. Gambling systems with easy access (scrolls, potential, any other item upgrades that might have come out since I quit) and incredibly low odds. New, completely overpowered classes coming out frequently to encourage you to drop everything you've been working on and make all those purchases again.

They're not going to fix that pomegranate, because it's been working for the past 9 years. It doesn't matter that a ton of better designed games have come out since then.

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Originally Posted by Dusk

Can't watch the video right now because I'm at work and don't have my headphones, but I'm pretty sure I know exactly what he's going to say. I'm not a big fan of Extra Credits because it's the usual sort of idealistic armchair theorizing about how games should be designed for sustainability and player enjoyment coming from someone who hasn't actually worked with the constraints involved in building a game.

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It's not like he's only preaching wistful, imaginative idealism. The things talked about can be achieved, though, as often stated, he never says it's going to be easy. I think you have a skewed impression of the show in general. You should also definitely take the time to watch the video upon arrival back at your dwelling place.