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+--- Thread: [1.2.355] More balancing (/showthread.php?tid=33542)
[1.2.355] More balancing - KhainiWest - 2010-12-02
dpeterlin Wrote:The difference is speed per cast.
Sac is way faster than crusher. Even if it doesn't ignore pdrate it's still a better 1vs1 attack.
sorry should have specified this earlier to fix the confusion. And for the record, GMS translation or not, it does ignore PDR.
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
JoeTang Wrote:Brave Slash with Enrage does 1894.7%/s nowI'm still not getting it. Brave Slash and Blast were the same speed. Blast was 280% x3 and Brave Slash was 210% x 3. It seems close (Blast is 33.3% higher), but Blast has a +50% chance to critical (for 120-150% damage) on top of a stacking attack buff and higher mastery. Dual charging on Holy Weak mobs hits 215% damage (135% * 150% * + 12.5% I messed up in my calculation). I'm not sure you're including everything that factors in a class, not an attack.
Brave Slash with Enrage before the nerf speed and damage nerf did 2742.9%/s
Brave Slash with Enrage before the nerf speed nerf did 2571.4%/s
Blast with Combat Orders and Holy Charge does 1935.4%/s
Brave Slash was grossly overpowered, and considering it practically matched Blast's DPS without Enrage so it could hit three monsters, and basically matched ACB's DPS on six monsters with only three targets, this nerf should have been a long time coming.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Dusk - 2010-12-02
Advanced Combo Attack doubles Brave Slash damage. Before the nerf, it did 768%x3 damage with Enrage. One of the reasons I asked why ACA added 10% damage for ALL orbs in the GMST class testing thread is because Heroes were so overpowered before.
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
Dusk Wrote:Advanced Combo Attack doubles Brave Slash damage. Before the nerf, it did 768%x3 damage with Enrage. One of the reasons I asked why ACA added 10% damage for ALL orbs in the GMST class testing thread is because Heroes were so overpowered before.By that logic, Blast while Dual Charging was dealing 707.35% per hit factoring its critical only on Holy Weak. Brave Slash was 672% per hit with Enrage before restructuring. Now Brave Slash is 720% per hit with Enrage and Blast while Dual Charging is 757.875% per hit on Holy Weak. Since Brave Slash is 1140ms and Blast is 840ms, Blast while Dual Charging is about 43% more DPS than Brave Slash with Enrage.
EDIT: Messed up. Fixed the last statement.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Dusk - 2010-12-02
ghostofhalo Wrote:By that logic, Blast while Dual Charging was dealing 707.35% per hit factoring its critical only on Holy Weak. Brave Slash was 672% per hit with Enrage before restructuring. Now Brave Slash is 720% per hit with Enrage and Blast while Dual Charging is 757.875% per hit on Holy Weak. Since Brave Slash is 1140ms and Blast is 840ms, Blast while Dual Charging is about 70% more DPS than Brave Slash with Enrage.
240 x 2 x 1.6 = 768
I don't see how Blast outdamaging Brave Slash on Holy weak is unfair.
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
Dusk Wrote:240 x 2 x 1.6 = 768Brave Slash was reduced to 225% per hit and has a higher delay. Without Holy Weak (simple Dual Charging), Blast causes 519.9375% per hit. Brave Slash then excels by a mere 2% more damage. However, this is factoring two skills alone. Factoring the whole class' abilities (Rage vs. Divine Armor that stacks with attack pots and 20% more mastery for starters), Paladins already outdamage Heroes by a fair amount. Throwing Dark Knight in the mix, and Heroes are still faily weak when Sacrifice is thrown in.
I don't see how Blast outdamaging Brave Slash on Holy weak is unfair.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Takebacker - 2010-12-02
ghostofhalo Wrote:Brave Slash was reduced to 225% per hit and has a higher delay. Without Holy Weak (simple Dual Charging), Blast causes 519.9375% per hit. Brave Slash then excels by a mere 2% more damage. However, this is factoring two skills alone. Factoring the whole class' abilities (Rage vs. Divine Armor that stacks with attack pots and 20% more mastery for starters), Paladins already outdamage Heroes by a fair amount. Throwing Dark Knight in the mix, and Heroes are still faily weak when Sacrifice is thrown in.
And on 3 mobs you f'ucking destroy everyone. I'm really not seeing why heroes need to be buffed.
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
Takebacker Wrote:And on 3 mobs you f'ucking destroy everyone. I'm really not seeing why heroes need to be buffed.If the monster isn't weak to an element, yes, we will beat a Paladin on mobs of 3. However, Dark Knights deal more damage with Crusher when factoring increased critical rate, bonus mastery, and Blood/Beholder Buff. When a mob is elementally weak (including ice), ACB beats Brave Slash as well.
[1.2.355] More balancing - 0^2 - 2010-12-02
Isnt that the point of the Paladin's charges? To make them superior on elementally weak foes? Heros have always been strong so I dont get why you're acting that theyre somehow weaker now.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Dusk - 2010-12-02
ghostofhalo Wrote:Brave Slash was reduced to 225% per hit and has a higher delay. Without Holy Weak (simple Dual Charging), Blast causes 519.9375% per hit. Brave Slash then excels by a mere 2% more damage. However, this is factoring two skills alone. Factoring the whole class' abilities (Rage vs. Divine Armor that stacks with attack pots and 20% more mastery for starters), Paladins already outdamage Heroes by a fair amount. Throwing Dark Knight in the mix, and Heroes are still faily weak when Sacrifice is thrown in.
Only ACB has 90% mastery, not Blast. Combat Mastery is roughly equal to Blast's innate crit and ITD on any boss with 50% defense.
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
0^2 Wrote:Isnt that the point of the Paladin's charges? To make them superior on elementally weak foes? Heros have always been strong so I dont get why you're acting that theyre somehow weaker now.Because Paladins still beat Heroes at 1v1 and 4+ on neutral mobs. Dark Knights beat Heroes at all forms (1v1, 2-3 mobs, 4+ mobs). There's no benefit to a Hero compared to the only remaining case, 2-3 neutral mobs against a Paladin. There's hardly any reason to play the class, especially since Panic and Coma are terrible DPS and Heroes interrupt stuns which renders Chance Attack useless after the first hit. Bosses are immune to stun, freeze, and, to my knowledge, darkness. I'm pretty sure none of those affect Lionheart mobs either. If they buffed Panic and Coma passively with, say, Advanced Combo Attack, it might not nearly be as bad. We'll see how it goes. Restructuring can't be over, right?
Dusk Wrote:Only ACB has 90% mastery, not Blast. Combat Mastery is roughly equal to Blast's innate crit and ITD on any boss with 50% defense.ACB adds 20% mastery while charged, not while using ACB. Combat Mastery doesn't reduce PDRate by that amount I'd assume. I'm pretty sure it's multiplied by the PDRate.
[1.2.355] More balancing - 0^2 - 2010-12-02
There is an advantage in Heros not needing to manage as many buffs nor elemental weakness as Paladins or the many SP needed to be invested to make Beholder effective. They just get Advanced Combo and theyre good to go with Intrepid/Brave Slash.
[1.2.355] More balancing - KhainiWest - 2010-12-02
ghostofhalo Wrote:Because Paladins still beat Heroes at 1v1 and 4+ on neutral mobs. Dark Knights beat Heroes at all forms (1v1, 2-3 mobs, 4+ mobs). There's no benefit to a Hero compared to the only remaining case, 2-3 neutral mobs against a Paladin. There's hardly any reason to play the class, especially since Panic and Coma are terrible DPS and Heroes interrupt stuns which renders Chance Attack useless after the first hit. Bosses are immune to stun, freeze, and, to my knowledge, darkness. I'm pretty sure none of those affect Lionheart mobs either. If they buffed Panic and Coma passively with, say, Advanced Combo Attack, it might not nearly be as bad. We'll see how it goes. Restructuring can't be over, right?
ACB adds 20% mastery while charged, not while using ACB. Combat Mastery doesn't reduce PDRate by that amount I'd assume. I'm pretty sure it's multiplied by the PDRate.
May I remind you that dark knights, for the last 2-3 years have been maintaining half their hp to do damage still inferior to hero's. A class' damage does not make them inferior or is not the sole purpose of the class..
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
DustBunny Wrote:May I remind you that dark knights, for the last 2-3 years have been maintaining half their hp to do damage still inferior to hero's. A class' damage does not make them inferior or is not the sole purpose of the class..I'm not asking for some damage. I'm asking for some sort of decent advantage to the class besides a slight damage increase in 2-3 mobs compared to a Paladin fighting neutral mobs. That's all Heroes are capable of with this update. I don't care if Dark Knights are better at Bossing or if Heroes will never reach the damage a Paladin can hit on elementally weak mobs, I just want to see a middle ground or a benefit to play a Hero.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Dusk - 2010-12-02
ghostofhalo Wrote:ACB adds 20% mastery while charged, not while using ACB. Combat Mastery doesn't reduce PDRate by that amount I'd assume. I'm pretty sure it's multiplied by the PDRate.
My mistake, Blast does have 94% mastery when ACB is maxed.
On a boss with 50% defense:
Paladins have 20% ITD and do 60% of raw damage
Heroes have 40% ITD and do 70% of raw damage
55% crit rate = +19.25% damage
5% crit rate = +1.75% damage
60% * 1.1925 = 71.55%
70% * 1.0175 = 71.225%
Okay might as well do the other calcs while I'm at it:
Brave Slash is now: 225x3% / (840 ms with Faster (2)) * 2 (ACA) * 1.6 (Enrage) = 2571.4% dps
Blast is now: 304x3% / (630 ms with Faster (2)) * (1.37 (Holy Charge) + 0.125 (Lightning Charge)) = 2164.2% dps
Heroes: 70% mastery = 85% average damage = 2185.7% average dps
Paladins: 94% mastery = 97% average damage = 2099.3% average dps
Heroes are 4.1% ahead assuming the same equips, but this doesn't take into account the attack bonus from Divine Shield, or elemental weaknesses. I think Pallys do need a slight nerf.
v I already factored that in. ITD = Ignore Target Defense
[1.2.355] More balancing - ghostofhalo - 2010-12-02
Dusk Wrote:My mistake, Blast does have 94% mastery when ACB is maxed.It definitely looks better, but Blast:
On a boss with 50% defense:
Paladins have 20% ITD and do 60% of raw damage
Heroes have 40% ITD and do 70% of raw damage
55% crit rate = +19.25% damage
5% crit rate = +1.75% damage
60% * 1.1925 = 71.55%
70% * 1.0175 = 71.225%
30 MP Cost: 24, Number of Hits: 3, Damage: 280%, Chance to Ignore DEF: 20%, Additional Crit Rate: 50%, Instant Death Chance: 10%
I'm just at the point where I'm sick of the numbers. I think I'm going to save my complaining for when restructuring is done and Big Bang is here in GMS to test the new features (such as PDRate).
EDIT: In my defense, I was an idiot to point that out. The DPS would stay the same.
[1.2.355] More balancing - SwordStaker - 2010-12-02
SaptaZapta Wrote:The dragon is not a summon, so asking about "other summons" while discussing it is misleading.This. It would make sense for Mir to be faster as time goes on as well. If anyone here did the storyline Afrien tells Evan that Dragon Masters and Dragons were to grow together. So it would make sense as Evan got faster, stronger, and just plain out wiser Mir would as well. Plus I like Illusions new speed makes it look more like an Illusion before it was Hit.....hit... now it's more: hithithithihit. Looks much more like an Illusion. I'l see if I can find a video but its done a lot in Dragon Ball Z especially mostly by Gohan and Burter that when they moved at super speed it looked like there was many different beings of them to strike at one time. Illusion is a 4 hit named Illusion so it would make sense to be super fast to give the feeling of an Illusion.
The dragon is just a fancy graphic instead of a staff/wand, the real attacker is the character and it makes sense that he can attack as fast as other mages.
The AM summons are supporters. They attack independently of the character, who could be spamming CL or w/e other attack at the same time. They are slow not because of their size but because Whoever decided that's enough "free" additional damage for a mage to be doing.
[1.2.355] More balancing - Hanabira.Kage - 2010-12-02
SwordStaker Wrote:This. It would make sense for Mir to be faster as time goes on as well. If anyone here did the storyline Afrien tells Evan that Dragon Masters and Dragons were to grow together. So it would make sense as Evan got faster, stronger, and just plain out wiser Mir would as well. Plus I like Illusions new speed makes it look more like an Illusion before it was Hit.....hit... now it's more: hithithithihit. Looks much more like an Illusion. I'l see if I can find a video but its done a lot in Dragon Ball Z especially mostly by Gohan and Burter that when they moved at super speed it looked like there was many different beings of them to strike at one time. Illusion is a 4 hit named Illusion so it would make sense to be super fast to give the feeling of an Illusion.
Like this?
[video=youtube;X_rbv3dA8hs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_rbv3dA8hs[/video]
[video=youtube;X_rbv3dA8hs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_rbv3dA8hs[/video]
[1.2.355] More balancing - SwordStaker - 2010-12-02
Hanabira.Kage Wrote:Can't compare that to ms!Like this?
[video=youtube;X_rbv3dA8hs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_rbv3dA8hs[/video]
Lyn would eat the Black Mage for breakfast>.>
[1.2.355] More balancing - JoeTang - 2010-12-02
With this speed nerf to Brave Slash, Brandish is better until level 28 Brave Slash. They're going about adjusting this all wrong. Unless if multi-hits let you charge Orbs faster or something, there's a significant issue in design here, outside of DPS balance.
I am of the firm belief that Paladins should be, at the very least, equal if not better DPS on single target neutral, since Blast is strictly a single target skill. Enrage should not be some magic button that gives you single target DPS on demand because you don't need to mob, especially since charges let Pink Bean pomegranate all over Paladins.