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+--- Thread: What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? (/showthread.php?tid=7441)
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Cyanne - 2009-01-17
Well, going off the recent kMST patches, I thought it would be nice to discuss what kinds of changes to skills we'd like to see in order to make maple a more interesting and less imbalanced game. In my opinion, 3rd job was extremely well-designed without taking 4th job characters into consideration, though I think chief bandits could use a bit of a break. To me, 4th job was quite a mess and seemed very rushed, even more so for Cygnus classes, though this thread is more for 4th job classes because most of us haven't experienced Cygnus classes first-hand yet.
Also, this thread is for changes to 4th job skills BEFORE 4th job was released, meaning that if you say that ultimates should be removed, this doesn't mean that it happens now, 1-year into 4th job, which would be guaranteed to cause chaos in the game.
Here's a list of what I'd like to see changed:
Hero: Make combo an actual combo. Right now, all combo basically does is increase damage and have pink circles fly around your character, which kinda defeats the purpose of the word "combo." 3rd job was decent in that there was actually a point in releasing orbs. Endless brandishing seems extremely dull to me. I'd like to see heroes get skills that actually chain together and have finishers actually worth using. Which means attacks with cooldowns and making the damage increase not rely on how many orbs you currently have.
Paladins: Replace sanctuary with 20-point max holy symbol. I don't think that only one class in the game getting the essential party skill really makes sense, and paladins do need some sort of a training boost, considering that they only barely match up to heroes on elementally WEAK mobs, which they should really excel against. Giving them holy symbol alleviates both problems, and the kMST update allowing threaten to work on bosses helps them become more useful at bosses. I also think that sanctuary is kind of a stupid skill gameplay-wise, though aesthetically, it's very funny to see with a macro saying "OBJECTION!" xD
Dark Knight: Change berserk so that it's only active when you're blinking from taking damage. This fits the name of the skill better, and I think that keeping hp under a certain threshold is a very bad idea in a game like maplestory when you get an invincibility period after taking damage. Also increase berserk damage to something like 300% to compensate for this, and replace beholder's healing with a single-target skill that always swings and is balanced to allow polearm-users to train at almost the same rate as spear-users (this skill for single-target, fury for mobs) and also let them deal a little bit better damage than spear-users at bosses.
Archmages: Remove ultimates and power up fire demon/ice demon/paralyze/chain lightning/big bang to allow archmages to train at a similar pace to other classes. In the ultimates' place, a new skill should be added that removes weapon/magic cancel but with quite a long cooldown. This lets them become more useful at bosses in a unique way.
Bishops: Remove genesis and replace it with a forward piercing mob skill that allows them to train at a very slightly slower rate than others, to compensate for holy symbol, like what I'm proposing for paladins. Also, replace infinity with the flame wizard skill that converts the archmage's own elemental spells to neutral.
Bowmasters: Make hamstring work on bosses.
Marksmen: Change snipe's cooldown back to 10 seconds, make blind work on bosses, and make pierce's damage consistent through each monster in a mob. I personally think that 5 seconds is a bit too small of a cooldown for snipe and that blind working on bosses is better a better way to balance out marksmen with bowmasters at bosses.
Night lords: Make ninja storm faster.
Shadowers: Make the actual attack of assassinate faster, and make it have a percent chance to instantly kill a non-boss monster based on level difference, assassinate level, and dark sight charge. Those are essentially what assassinations really are in the real life, nobody takes that long assassinating someone from the shadows, especially to have it not actually kill almost all the time >_>
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - KajitiSouls - 2009-01-17
Paladins with Holy Symbol... never thought of that. I'm not sure if that's such a wise decision though.
Personally I would have wanted to see that there would have been a small normal boost for the other three charges (fire, ice, lightning) via some skill, to compensate for l4gging DPS according to 4th job standards. Just look at Heroes, they beat out Paladins even on elementally weak mobs (except Holy), assuming huge mob sizes don't come into play (and they normally don't).
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Avenge - 2009-01-17
Holy symbol shouldn't exist at all, they should just recode their party system and have a passive exp bonus equivalent to HS for partying.
Cyanne Wrote:Night lords: Make ninja storm faster.
Definitely... very useful for finishing off venomed mobs without having to turn and attack them.
Cyanne Wrote:a new skill should be added that removes weapon/magic cancel
I was thinking about something like this for NL's ninja ambush, since it makes the weap/magic def icon blink on and off when it's used. So people could attack while it's blinking off, and then the immunity comes back when it blinks on etc.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Nikkey - 2009-01-17
No changes. Just major changes in maps. Make it possible to train with 6 people in a party, where all uses its best potential (for all classes) and make it impossible to have just 6 bishops in one map.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Xiyuuna - 2009-01-17
:[ BM
Hamstring has a 100% rate so it works with hurricane.
hurricane gets a 150% rate instead of just 100%
Concentrate Stack with Att pot.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - ZachAttack - 2009-01-17
Give ultimates a cooldown, 3~5 minutes, so they are actually ultimates.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Alloy - 2009-01-17
ZachAttack Wrote:Give ultimates a cooldown, 3~5 minutes, so they are actually ultimates.
That'd be too much... But imagine something like a combo bar. You fill it by attacking stuff, and once filled, you can unleash an ultimate. That'd be fantastic, and sounds entertaining enough for mages to not get mad. Of course, make the bar easy to fill, so there's no problems on any side.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - DrRusty - 2009-01-17
I'd be happy with 475% demoltion and 300% barrage.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Mark - 2009-01-17
"Marksmen: Change snipe's cooldown back to 10 seconds, make blind work on bosses, and make pierce's damage consistent through each monster in a mob. I personally think that 5 seconds is a bit too small of a cooldown for snipe and that blind working on bosses is better a better way to balance out marksmen with bowmasters at bosses."
No. Changing Snipe down to 5 seconds actually lets them outpower Bowmasters which IS THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN SINCE THE RELEASE OF 4th JOB.
/slight rage.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Retalion - 2009-01-17
Xiyuuna Wrote::[ BM
Hamstring has a 100% rate so it works with hurricane.
hurricane gets a 150% rate instead of just 100%
Concentrate Stack with Att pot.
Agreed with first one (if slow for mages works on stuff like pap, why shouldnt hamstring?), disagree with 2nd one (as it would make BMs overpowered... I think 100% hurricane is good as it is), agree with 3rd one, but if you change concentrate to stack, you'd have to make enrage (for heroes) and dragon blood (or whatever their 4th job equivalent is) stack as well (Iono, do other versions do that?)
Im personally fine with how the BM 4th job is atm but a few changes I'd love seeing for archers in general:
Give Soul Arrow an increased % or holy attribute: So say level 1 SA does 101% dmg, Level 2 does 102% etc. or something along those lines... Make it actually worth it to max instead of just to coordinate the timer or something silly like that.
Make normal attack arrows stack with Soul Arrow: I know you actually "consume" stars when you use shadow stars but hey, if they can use shadow stars with their attack, we should be able to get attack from our arrows in soul arrow as well D: (albeit only a "small" 4 attack boost but still... D: )
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Loose - 2009-01-17
Alloy Wrote:That'd be too much... But imagine something like a combo bar. You fill it by attacking stuff, and once filled, you can unleash an ultimate. That'd be fantastic, and sounds entertaining enough for mages to not get mad. Of course, make the bar easy to fill, so there's no problems on any side.This is an idea that should be implemented in many games, especially MMORPGs. It's proven that it can be done in MapleStory with Marauder's Energy Charge. I'd like to see more of this.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - FrozNlite - 2009-01-17
What a fantastic waste of money. Does anyone truly believe Nexon would go through this much trouble to make classes more balanced when they can do so indirectly at a fraction of the cost?
Care for an example? Bossing. Bossing is the area where ArchMages fail at, simply due to their single target DPS. We all understand this. Remedy? Make a boss that's 10+ parts that are flying around a map, and are elementally weak. Now you've essentially made a boss out of the Zakum Arms, but have added the strategy and the necessary firepower of ultimates to any group that wants to successfully kill such a boss. Case in point, ArchMages are actually wanted for something. Give this boss the game's best medal/belt, and everyone will want x number of ArchMages per run.
And I believe there was rumor this would be similar to the case with the upcoming CWK bosses, as the rumor states you fight them all simultaneously. 4 bosses in one room, especially if they're flying, especially if even some are elementally weak = larger need for ArchMages than ever before.
So now we've fixed ArchMages. What about all the other classes that can't train as fast as them? The friends of mine who fit this description aren't F/P ArchMages whining about how ultimates should be removed to balance the classes; instead, they're proactively discussing the possibilities of a higher-level "Hime"-like map. Think: a flat, high-spawn map of low def, high mdef monsters that are elementally strong against Magicians and give a decent HP/EXP ratio, enough for non-Magicians to train there just as fast as Mages at Skelegons and to send Magicians running. Make this map a dungeon map that only 1 party of people can enter every 90 minutes, put 20 of those dungeons on every channel so there are 380 open maps per server, and voila. Training is balanced.
The beauty of this is that instead of restructuring core 4th job skills and having to deal with point issues and any other spontaneous issues that may arise from changing skills themselves, you now just have to add one boss with subsequent maps and one stylistically-similar dungeon map to the one I described above, and the game is balanced.
I'm no computer or economic genius, but I believe adding a few maps and monsters is easier and cheaper than changing 12 classes worth of skills.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Findings - 2009-01-17
Opeth Wrote:No. Changing Snipe down to 5 seconds actually lets them outpower Bowmasters which IS THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN SINCE THE RELEASE OF 4th JOB.
/slight rage.
So you want crossbow users to be superior to bow users from 70-200. Why not just get rid of bows altogether?
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Mark - 2009-01-17
Findings Wrote:So you want crossbow users to be superior to bow users from 70-200. Why not just get rid of bows altogether?
Uh...yeah?
The whole Archer thing is you either want speed over power, (Rangers) or power over speed (Snipers.)
Therefore, Marksman were supposed to be the superior damage dealers.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Cyanne - 2009-01-17
Opeth Wrote:"Marksmen: Change snipe's cooldown back to 10 seconds, make blind work on bosses, and make pierce's damage consistent through each monster in a mob. I personally think that 5 seconds is a bit too small of a cooldown for snipe and that blind working on bosses is better a better way to balance out marksmen with bowmasters at bosses."
No. Changing Snipe down to 5 seconds actually lets them outpower Bowmasters which IS THE WAY IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN SINCE THE RELEASE OF 4th JOB.
/slight rage.
Powered-up iron arrow makes crossbows at least on par with hunters in 2nd job, and snipers have the upper hand in 3rd job. Marksmen will train a little bit faster than bowmasters with the new kMST changes, so bowmasters should get a slight upper hand on marksmen. Plus, the difference gets even smaller when the marksman is partied with a buccaneer with speed infusion.
FrozNlite Wrote:What a fantastic waste of money. Does anyone truly believe Nexon would go through this much trouble to make classes more balanced when they can do so indirectly at a fraction of the cost?
Care for an example? Bossing. Bossing is the area where ArchMages fail at, simply due to their single target DPS. We all understand this. Remedy? Make a boss that's 10+ parts that are flying around a map, and are elementally weak. Now you've essentially made a boss out of the Zakum Arms, but have added the strategy and the necessary firepower of ultimates to any group that wants to successfully kill such a boss. Case in point, ArchMages are actually wanted for something. Give this boss the game's best medal/belt, and everyone will want x number of ArchMages per run.
And I believe there was rumor this would be similar to the case with the upcoming CWK bosses, as the rumor states you fight them all simultaneously. 4 bosses in one room, especially if they're flying, especially if even some are elementally weak = larger need for ArchMages than ever before.
So now we've fixed ArchMages. What about all the other classes that can't train as fast as them? The friends of mine who fit this description aren't F/P ArchMages whining about how ultimates should be removed to balance the classes; instead, they're proactively discussing the possibilities of a higher-level "Hime"-like map. Think: a flat, high-spawn map of low def, high mdef monsters that are elementally strong against Magicians and give a decent HP/EXP ratio, enough for non-Magicians to train there just as fast as Mages at Skelegons and to send Magicians running. Make this map a dungeon map that only 1 party of people can enter every 90 minutes, put 20 of those dungeons on every channel so there are 380 open maps per server, and voila. Training is balanced.
The beauty of this is that instead of restructuring core 4th job skills and having to deal with point issues and any other spontaneous issues that may arise from changing skills themselves, you now just have to add one boss with subsequent maps and one stylistically-similar dungeon map to the one I described above, and the game is balanced.
I'm no computer or economic genius, but I believe adding a few maps and monsters is easier and cheaper than changing 12 classes worth of skills.
This thread isn't about changing 4th job as it is now, it's about discussing what 4th job should have been from the start. So it's not actually supposed to be put into practice (like sent to Nexon, etc.) but just a friendly discussion. Yeah I guess the thread title kinda implied the wrong thing, but the first part of the opening post covered that.
Also, with that 10 flying bosses thing, ultimates being spammed would cause a lot of strain on people's computers.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Russt - 2009-01-17
I started a more detailed version of the below a bit ago, but never finished, so I guess I'll post a semi-rough outline here.
Big Bang: Replace with a passive improvement of Teleport from 150 range to 210 (+2 per level) and give it 3-4 frames of invincibility after appearing in the new location.
Mana Reflection: I do like the idea of making this a party skill.
Fire Demon: Increase basic attack to about 180, and change its damage/time to 40% of the original hit rather than %HP-based.
Ice Demon: Increase basic attack to about 160, and change its damage/time to 40% of the original hit rather than %HP-based.
Holy Shield: Replace with a Demon-type skill that deals no damage, but makes monsters weak to every element.
Infinity: Replace with a passive improvement of Magic Guard. At max level, HP only takes 10% damage and MP takes 50%; the other 40% is absorbed by the skill itself.
Elquines: Enlarge hitbox, increase basic attack to about 360, and allow it to mob 4.
Ifrit: Enlarge hitbox, increase basic attack to about 400, and allow it to mob 4.
Bahamut: Enlarge hitbox, increase basic attack to about 310, and allow it to mob 4.
Paralyze: Increase basic attack to about 280.
Chain Lightning: Increase basic attack to about 240 and enlarge chainable hitbox.
Angel's Ray: Increase basic attack to about 320 and allow it to pierce 3.
Meteor/Blizzard: Change to an area effect similar to squid's ink, with 200 basic attack. Inflicts damage to all monsters within range (same as current hitbox) every second for 15 seconds. Has a cooldown of 1 minute.
Genesis: Change to an area effect similar to squid's ink, with 250 basic attack. Inflicts damage to all monsters within range (same as current hitbox) every second for 15 seconds. Has a cooldown of 1 minute.
This would make for decently effective training with ID + Ifrit + CL, and Holy Shield + Bahamut + AR (LOL that sounds so weird), as well as opening up endless possibilities using "Holy Shield" in conjunction with AMs, Paladins, and even Corsairs. Though I admit F/Ps get the short end of the stick with Paralyze being single target.
All other classes I don't really care about. lol
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Five Second Pose - 2009-01-17
For Shadowers, I'd like to see an increase of power in Ninja Ambush and possibly a speed increase, so that people could BStep -> Ambush.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Findings - 2009-01-17
Opeth Wrote:Uh...yeah?
The whole Archer thing is you either want speed over power, (Rangers) or power over speed (Snipers.)
Therefore, Marksman were supposed to be the superior damage dealers.
Which is exactly how it is with the current 4th job. Marksmen have a better damage formula and will do more damage in a single attack, but thanks to a Bowmaster's speed with Hurricane, they can can catch up over time. That's what the whole point of speed is.
Rangers are just as slow as Snipers though, that needs to be changed back to how it used to be.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - Mark - 2009-01-17
You guys obviously don't know what you're talking about. As of now, Bowmasters are chosen over Marksman to go to Horntail. Guess why?
Marksman are supposed to outdamage Bowmasters in all circumstances, but they don't.
What changes would you like to see in 4th job skills? - KajitiSouls - 2009-01-17
FrozNlite Wrote:What a fantastic waste of ...They are sorta doing that in KMST [insert numbers here].90 last I checked.
I'm no computer or economic genius, but I believe adding a few maps and monsters is easier and cheaper than changing 12 classes worth of skills.
Class balance is indeed something to be changed before implemented. (this thread isn't about that though)
About having spammy ultimates with seriously large numbers of targets... don't you ever wonder about why Nexon lists MapleStory as a minimum requirements game in their specs? While I do agree that some hardware maintenance can and should be done to alleviate that problem, I don't exactly advocate getting a computer on steroids just so you can have a higher level of enjoyment at bossing.