Can someone explain to me the need to be represented?

[VerrKol]

I'm... not going to read a 66 page analysis. I skimmed the conclusion, however, and it flat out states in the report, and I quote:

"What’s new is that business as usual in the Hollywood industry may soon be unsustain-able. Evidence from this report (and its predecessor in the series) shows clearly that America’s increasingly diverse audiences prefer diverse content created with the input of diverse talent. Diversity sells. "

Keep in mind, America was a majority white country for the longest time. That is changing. You speak of Under and Over representation, but the representation has mostly matched the population and its diversity, as far as I can tell. The demographic will change and the bottom line will change to reflect that naturally over time. Do you really think it's racism? No, it's money. Do you really think they don't take the money potential into account when they make these decisions? Movie making is an incredibly high risk investment - Some movies get millions put into its budget and production value and don't even come close to breaking even. They stick with what they KNOW will work, and even then it's a crapshoot sometimes. It's also everybody else's fault as much as their own, because we're the ones who watch the pomegranate they put out. We're the ones who pay to watch their movies with their allegedly all white casts and exclusive awards shows.

(I absolutely agree with both of you on the asian/martial artist parts of your arguments, though. I hadn't thought about that much and it is pretty messed up.)

THAT SAID, however - there are many more opportunities available to EVERYONE in this day and age: Youtube, Twitch, Kickstarter projects, the list goes on. You don't NEED multi-million dollar funding from hollywood to make it out there in the world of acting. There are many places to start.

I didn't read all 66 pages of it either ;)

The fact that the film audience is diverse and craves diversity makes the current misrepresentation that much more confusing and frustrating. The representation has NOT matched population diversity that's what that report and so many others say. That's what all the hubub is about. The statistics become even less representative when you look at the hero/villain lead/supporting role ratios. If you're hypothesizing that there's some sort of lag time and that things will magically sort themselves out... maybe? This opens more questions than it answers. Is it because the activists have been successful? Is it because minority target films (Selma, Straight Outta Compton, etc...) are successful? Is it the increased numbers and buying power of minority consumers? Is it the increasing global consumption of Hollywood movies across all countries? All important and interesting questions with complex answers. I nor has anyone in this thread really attempted to answer them. What I have contended is that Hollywood does not reflect the ethnic diversity of the US and that Hollywood's limited inclusion of minority actors often limits them to stereotypical roles. How this might change in the future isn't the question being asked.

You've effectively conceded that Hollywood isn't representative and moved on to three justifications of it.
1. Economic factors will cause it to change
This does not deny the current discrimination. Economic factors are certainly influential with any business, but as you point out Hollywood has already proven the current model makes money and that they're reluctant to change. The success of some minority groups in film shows that they can be profitable as well. The increasingly diverse audience may bring increased diversity in the film industry.

2. White people were a majority
Well sure and still are for a little while longer. Perhaps more important to Hollywood is that young white people were most likely to spend money on film. That doesn't mean film should neglect diversity in film nor audience.

3. There are alternatives
Ah, the magic of the internet is beautiful! Varying methods of film consumption certainly lead to additional possibilities. I'd love to see some data on Youtube actor success, pay, and demographics. I'll look into it, but here's my current thoughts unsourced. While there have certainly been some self made success stories, Youtube has since changed it's monetization policies making it increasingly difficult for upstarts to really make it. Kickstarter and other crowd sourcing platforms are notorious for their lack of follow through and do nothing to penetrate the wider US audience, but certainly produce the occasional gem. Which is important because...

This isn't really about Hollywood! The question is why do people feel the need to be represented? We've been discussing the Oscars and Hollywood in general because of the publicity and influence. The reality is that our representation affects our lives in very tangible, albeit sometimes subtle ways. When the representation of your ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation in film is the thing you're being judged on , it pineappleing matters a lot. People have every right to be angry about it and want to change it when it exists. Is it really stupid and annoying when they gain publicity over issues that don't actually exist? Sure! I already cited that the most recent controversy may have been a statistical anomaly. But that certainly can't be said about Asian, Hispanic, and Middle Eastern minorities. Maybe if they protested like the Black community they'd get more proportional representation. Idk.

The point isn't that there aren't ANY opportunities. It's that the representation, often created by wealthy ignorant elites, of your "people" senselessly limits those opportunities. It's actually easier and more effective to battle those representations than actually confront and change the subconscious bias of every person who consequently discriminates against minorities.

Disclaimer: I am not condoning nor agreeing with any of the attempts to change these representations. Nor am I presuming the discrimination exists beyond what I've researched and discussed here. I'm merely offering a perspective on an existing and proven inequality as it relates to the need for representation.

[Justin]

often created by wealthy ignorant elites, of your "people" senselessly limits those opportunities.

Sorry, I'm not cherry picking or ignoring the rest of your post, but this right here - This is the utter and blatant truth of it all, I'm thinking. I wouldn't even say it's necessarily racism or malicious in intent, but it is definitely caused by the incredibly wealthy few who are afraid of change and trying new things. However, because those wealthy few generally are white people, the entire white race gets pinned for it and scrutinized for something that is... well, by and large outside of their control.

That said, however, I do wish we as Americans in general focused on... more important things. Like the elections, our tanking economy, a new energy source, things like that. These are important matters, yes, but we definitely have more pressing things that will impact ALL of us heavily within the next 10 years alone if we don't do something about it. It's just tiring hearing about all of this social justice and tumblrina crap day in and day out (It's literally impossible to actually tune it out or block all of it outside of not going on the internet at all) when honestly.... people need to get thicker skins and quit going out their way to be angry about something.

[VerrKol]

Sorry, I'm not cherry picking or ignoring the rest of your post, but this right here - This is the utter and blatant truth of it all, I'm thinking. I wouldn't even say it's necessarily racism or malicious in intent, but it is definitely caused by the incredibly wealthy few who are afraid of change and trying new things. However, because those wealthy few generally are white people, the entire white race gets pinned for it and scrutinized for something that is... well, by and large outside of their control.

That said, however, I do wish we as Americans in general focused on... more important things. Like the elections, our tanking economy, a new energy source, things like that. These are important matters, yes, but we definitely have more pressing things that will impact ALL of us heavily within the next 10 years alone if we don't do something about it. It's just tiring hearing about all of this social justice and tumblrina crap day in and day out (It's literally impossible to actually tune it out or block all of it outside of not going on the internet at all) when honestly.... people need to get thicker skins and quit going out their way to be angry about something.

Fair enough. I've definitely experienced the same "white guilt trip". Some idiot hung a noose on a statue my Freshman year of college. The whole thing got blown out of proportion and received a lot of media attention as a hate crime. The statue in question was of a white man and was only mildly racist for his time. Suddenly the entire campus had a "culture of discrimination" and the black student union issued a serious of ludicrous demands including building a building for a "black safe zone". I was basically crucified for pointing out that blacks were actually over represented on campus proportional to the state population and that no other minority group was using media attention to demand multi-million dollar construction projects. I follow the numbers. Sometimes a group of people get a really pineappleing short end of the stick.

I like to think I'm a rational, enlightened person that doesn't discriminate (as much as humanly possible) and thus not part of the problem. It's really not about malicious intent. I really doubt many people actually realize and intend to be racist or discriminate.

You're preaching the choir, but the reality is for some of these groups the discrimination is just as important! The Mexican immigrant that gets turned down for a job could have been the doctor who cured cancer. The Chinese immigrant that has to get higher grades to get into college than his white neighbor might have solved our energy crisis. Fighting discrimination in an effective way produces a merit based society which better enables us to fight all those problems and future ones we can't even thought of yet! I feel like the media attention which focuses on and enhances false or minor issues in order to sensationalize news into entertainment is the real culprit. It obscures the genuine problems in a sea of others then one is inevitably proved fallacious and the entire house of cards falls. Every canvas is painted with the same brush. People just keep watching the "news" and clicking the bait which pays the bills so the cycle continues to grow.

[KhainiWest]

Fair enough. I've definitely experienced the same "white guilt trip". Some idiot hung a noose on a statue my Freshman year of college. The whole thing got blown out of proportion and received a lot of media attention as a hate crime. The statue in question was of a white man and was only mildly racist for his time. Suddenly the entire campus had a "culture of discrimination" and the black student union issued a serious of ludicrous demands including building a building for a "black safe zone". I was basically crucified for pointing out that blacks were actually over represented on campus proportional to the state population and that no other minority group was using media attention to demand multi-million dollar construction projects. I follow the numbers. Sometimes a group of people get a really pineappleing short end of the stick.

I like to think I'm a rational, enlightened person that doesn't discriminate (as much as humanly possible) and thus not part of the problem. It's really not about malicious intent. I really doubt many people actually realize and intend to be racist or discriminate.

You're preaching the choir, but the reality is for some of these groups the discrimination is just as important! The Mexican immigrant that gets turned down for a job could have been the doctor who cured cancer. The Chinese immigrant that has to get higher grades to get into college than his white neighbor might have solved our energy crisis. Fighting discrimination in an effective way produces a merit based society which better enables us to fight all those problems and future ones we can't even thought of yet! I feel like the media attention which focuses on and enhances false or minor issues in order to sensationalize news into entertainment is the real culprit. It obscures the genuine problems in a sea of others then one is inevitably proved fallacious and the entire house of cards falls. Every canvas is painted with the same brush. People just keep watching the "news" and clicking the bait which pays the bills so the cycle continues to grow.

I think the problem with both lines of thinking is there are so many factors involved for both circumstances, that claiming it's some "gender/racial" hurdle is so 1 dimensional that it's frankly disingenuous to begin a conversation like that.

The most fascinating thing right now, like, seriously I would never have guessed this like 3 years ago, but conservatives have found a common enemy with liberals regarding this PC police nonsense. With people, like Milo yiannopolis, an openly gay sassy mother pineappleer, literally being the front runner right now of the conservative party over in Europe is just, mind blowing to someone like me. The common thread you are start to see if you look closely is the conservative movement has always been seen as Anti science, abortion, global warming, gay marriage, it was all systematically rejected because of mainly 'faith'.

Now we see this way of what is being seen as the 'regressive left', which are anti science themselves, which is why you're seeing such a sudden jump in people like me, who encouraged gay marriage, but are stepping back from these same people who are 'on a roll'. It's obnoxious because you see these brats who essentially are so nearsighted they can't see the consequences of witch hunts based on opinions that people should, in our country at least, have the freedom to have. When Chick Filet funded anti organization groups who actively tried to sabotage the movement, my first and only action against them, is quit business with them. I didn't demand the president get fired, I didn't try to torch the place down, I didn't attack employees.

Yet at UMBC I can be minding my own business in a library and get shrieked at with no consequence because I'm not acknowledging some protest that has been concocted by bored, entitled trust fund baby brats who are upset that the adjective 'poor' is still being used in today's vocabulary.

EDIT: I mean when you have the president echoing "wage gap" myth, it's just disappointing to say the least

[VerrKol]

@KhainiWest; It's not quite so surprising when you recall the full political history of the US. We've had similar groups before like the Southern Democrats. Our two party system creates some really weird fringe groups that have more in common with the other party. It's far too early to tell, but I'm intrigued by the possibility of the political parties actually swapping places or at least re-configuring the platforms heavily. If we can jump the media hurdle, there may actually be enough overlap to get some bipartisanship but that's probably overly optimistic.

In the US, anti-PC and really anything anti- is pretty popular. Sanders and Trump are both proof positive of that.

You've fallen into the trap of oversimplification by calling the Republicans anti-science while presuming the Democrats are then pro-science. Sure they (in general) believe in global warming, funding medical research, public medicine, and are (marginally?) in favor of funding NASA, but what they choose to believe is largely just as nonsensical and partisan as the Republicans. Both sides use, abuse, and discard statistics and studies as they please in order to advance their particular agenda. The wage "gap" is a great example since it allows Hillary to fire up her supporters and ensure women voter turn out. The global warming studies are all over the place and it seems like only Richard Feynman is willing to call out some of it as really terrible science. We have tons of "green" initiatives which promote highly inefficient hybrid/electric vehicles like the Prius which actually have a net increase in global emissions because the batteries are so damn toxic. There's an argument to be made for fostering innovation and advancement, but that doesn't excuse the false/misleading advertising.

Yea I was really disappointed when I found out about Chick Fillet. They have pretty good food and better fruit/veggie options than most fast food. My family now jokes that we only eat there on Sundays. I think there's a definite middle ground that encourages personal acts like withholding business while spreading the message by informing your friends and family of the situation and why it's deplorable. In light of the success of the Civil Rights movement, I think it would be hard to say that large scale protest and disruption isn't sometimes merited. The trick is being able to identify the real problems and solutions with such complex issues.

[KhainiWest]

KhainiWest;

You've fallen into the trap of oversimplification by calling the Republicans anti-science while presuming the Democrats are then pro-science. Sure they (in general) believe in global warming, funding medical research, public medicine, and are (marginally?) in favor of funding NASA, but what they choose to believe is largely just as nonsensical and partisan as the Republicans. Both sides use, abuse, and discard statistics and studies as they please in order to advance their particular agenda. The wage "gap" is a great example since it allows Hillary to fire up her supporters and ensure women voter turn out. The global warming studies are all over the place and it seems like only Richard Feynman is willing to call out some of it as really terrible science. We have tons of "green" initiatives which promote highly inefficient hybrid/electric vehicles like the Prius which actually have a net increase in global emissions because the batteries are so damn toxic. There's an argument to be made for fostering innovation and advancement, but that doesn't excuse the false/misleading advertising.

I was speaking generally, the conceived perceptions rather than my belief system

Yea I was really disappointed when I found out about Chick Fillet. They have pretty good food and better fruit/veggie options than most fast food. My family now jokes that we only eat there on Sundays. I think there's a definite middle ground that encourages personal acts like withholding business while spreading the message by informing your friends and family of the situation and why it's deplorable. In light of the success of the Civil Rights movement, I think it would be hard to say that large scale protest and disruption isn't sometimes merited. The trick is being able to identify the real problems and solutions with such complex issues.

Protest is completely viable, but some of the videos of guys harassing the workers and threatening to burn the place down is what I have problems with

[Tay]

I think it's important for someone to see representation of themselves in a positive light. This example of in the media is probably the most relevant, but I think it's important to see people you identify with doing things that you might want to do i.e. politics, science, art, etc. I think this, because, when someone sees all the successful people they aspire to be like and can't relate to them on some fundamental levels they may give up or lose hope on their dreams because of something they can't, and shouldn't want to, change.

Just my opinion, and why I wish I saw more well known LGBTQ+ physicists and engineers.

[Flonne]

Just my opinion, and why I wish I saw more well known LGBTQ+ physicists and engineers.

Just like with everything else, as long as they are the best person for the job and not given the position over someone who is more qualified, but really, why does it matter? Maybe I'm too jaded, since I know based on representation in the field that skinny, pale shutins such as myself have a lot of clout in STEM fields.

[xparasite9]

Just like with everything else, as long as they are the best person for the job and not given the position over someone who is more qualified, but really, why does it matter? Maybe I'm too jaded, since I know based on representation in the field that skinny, pale shutins such as myself have a lot of clout in STEM fields.

Yeah it really doesn't matter if they are LGB (I guess TQ would matter) if they are nearly all permavirgs.

[Marksman Bryan]

Just like with everything else, as long as they are the best person for the job and not given the position over someone who is more qualified, but really, why does it matter? Maybe I'm too jaded, since I know based on representation in the field that skinny, pale shutins such as myself have a lot of clout in STEM fields.

I'm not sure if it differs based on area but I face discrimination in STEM by being a white male. I have a very, very, very similar resume and background as my female friend, and she was accepted to every single PhD program she applied to. Even the ivy league schools - CalTech, Stanford, Cornell, etc.
I was rejected from everything. We applied to the same programs.

Don't get me wrong - she absolutely deserved those acceptances, but I think I did too. I don't know where the disparity is other than what my sex is. Grades? I was better. Research? Literally the same. GRE scores? Mine were better. Recommendation letters? We both had very good professors we've worked closely with. Personal statement is the only thing I don't know about. All I know is I spent months on mine and it was very well written so I hardly doubt that was the reason 10 different schools chose to accept her and reject me.

Unfortunately this type of discrimination is okay in our culture because white males have had it good for so long, and other groups haven't. So I have to suffer the cost of previous generations of hate and discrimination. I don't think it's fair but it's not going to change so I suck it up and deal with it. I just have to work harder.

[VerrKol]

Just my opinion, and why I wish I saw more well known LGBTQ+ physicists and engineers.

I think everyone wishes this in general. But there's a longer lead time, especially in physics, between the changing demographics in students and world class PhD researchers. Turing is literally the only famous one I can think of and I had no idea he was gay until the movie came out.

@Marksman Bryan; Your experience parallels mine. The reality is that for a variety of reasons there are far fewer minority groups in the physical sciences as undergrads. Excepting women in biology and Asian Americans in engineering, straight white men heavily dominate these fields as I'm sure you've noticed. I can't find the article again, but several studies continue to show significant confirmation bias by grad evaluation committees. They effectively select for the demographic that already exists and perpetuate the imbalance. I think we can all recall James Watson's remarks. It doesn't help that there are so few minority students selecting physical sciences as their major.

The theory (I'll reserve comment on the validity) is that your female friend achieved similar success while combating the inherent bias in the system.

[Flonne]

I'm not sure if it differs based on area but I face discrimination in STEM by being a white male. I have a very, very, very similar resume and background as my female friend, and she was accepted to every single PhD program she applied to. Even the ivy league schools - CalTech, Stanford, Cornell, etc.
I was rejected from everything. We applied to the same programs.

Don't get me wrong - she absolutely deserved those acceptances, but I think I did too. I don't know where the disparity is other than what my sex is. Grades? I was better. Research? Literally the same. GRE scores? Mine were better. Recommendation letters? We both had very good professors we've worked closely with. Personal statement is the only thing I don't know about. All I know is I spent months on mine and it was very well written so I hardly doubt that was the reason 10 different schools chose to accept her and reject me.

Unfortunately this type of discrimination is okay in our culture because white males have had it good for so long, and other groups haven't. So I have to suffer the cost of previous generations of hate and discrimination. I don't think it's fair but it's not going to change so I suck it up and deal with it. I just have to work harder.

That's why I had to qualify it with a statement to begin with; affirmative action is a peach in many things, but particularly academia. The entire upper echelon of the system is completely infested with SJWs, and it will remain that way because they have the power to only promote those who are either like them or will be in their debt and as such not speak out against their idiocy. Getting a college degree is still the biggest regret of my entire life, and I have many regrets, I have more regrets than I have every other emotion put together. Furthering your education means absolutely nothing if you aren't also capable of sitting on the plantain of the person directly above you in order to get further in life/career/whatever, unless you are incredibly lucky or incredibly talented or both. Also, having a degree makes you overqualified for a mcjob (though I wouldn't have gotten that anyway, I have agoraphobia at this point so a service job would be a terrible fit if I even cared enough to look for one), and having a degree means nothing if you don't also have experience which you can't get without working when you are younger which you can't get because you are GETTING A pineappleING DEGREE.

[Tay]

Just like with everything else, as long as they are the best person for the job and not given the position over someone who is more qualified, but really, why does it matter? Maybe I'm too jaded, since I know based on representation in the field that skinny, pale shutins such as myself have a lot of clout in STEM fields.

I mean realistically it doesn't matter because if you are going to want to do STEM you are going to do it. I agree with the fact that if the person is best qualified then they should be the one to receive the job, though sometimes benefiting a work place comes down to more than just work experience and results.

My bigger point is trying to we should want to show more diversity in fields so that they don't seem relegated to the current stereotype, I guess that's the best word, that occupy them.

[Derimed]

Representation in the Academy Awards is BS. That Danny DeVito guy is full of it for calling America a nation of bigots for having no black nominees because it's not the American people who choose who gets the Oscars, it's Hollywood itself. Nobody but the Hollywood elites have representation in that entity, so Danny should have been calling himself and his overpaid actor buddies bigots, not us. We simply don't make the decision he's talking about. We're not represented in it.

Representation translates to proportionate say in tangible and intangible politics. This is especially important with money. If you are a taxpayer, you are sending money to the federal, state and local governments. As a taxpayer, you therefore are entitled to have a say in how those taxes are allocated, and it's important because your money is being spent. It is ironic, but you have the greatest say at the local level -- and local is the most important, because it decides stuff like school boards, parking, and libraries -- and the least in federal. But federal is what concerns people the most. We have the least say in the Presidency, but that's the top-watched event.

If you're dealing with intangible political issues, the premise is the same. Blacks were in the past either totally without say (slavery) or a sham of a say (segregation.) Civil rights lobbied to change that, but it seems to have ended up as "too much say." The first open heart surgery was by a black doctor, as I recall, and jazz was invented and perfected mostly by blacks. These things are part of substantive culture, but there seems to be a thing that if it's black it's got to be as good as anything non black. Jazz is an achievement on the level of respectability with classical. I don't think rap about killing cops is on par with classical, but many blacks do. That is the doing of aggressive representation.

In the end, representation, whether over intangibles or tangibles means a voice, power. We are in a country based on rights and freedoms. If you don't have representation, you cannot protect your rights or keep your freedoms. But since politics by definition is a competition for scarce resources, one group having rights and freedoms will always be stepping on the toes of other groups. Representation is ALWAYS central to this because most of the competition on any political level is done through representatives. Most people with full-time jobs do not have time for full-time involvement in politics.