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  1. I post a lot Bi Male
    IGN: ZesseiBijin
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    Default Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    http://www.nbcnews.com/health/cancer...-chemo-n281511


    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/court-hears-case-of-teen-refusing-cancer-treatment/

    This is a rather tricky situation.

    On one hand she should be allowed to do what she wants with her body, on the other hand though, her mother sounds like a total nutjob. Experts have weighed in saying that if she gets treatment she has an 80-85% chance of survival, but not doing anything means she will almost certainly die, but the mother claims "This isn't about dying, she will not die" which honestly seems in denial.

    I think it would be a criminal waste of a life if the girl was allowed to have her way and die when she had such a high chance of survival, and the whole thing reeks of the mother swaying her opinion on the matter. Neither of them sound in their right mind.

    The worst part is though, is that once she is 18, she will likely cancel the chemo treatments anyway.

  2. Donator Straight Male
    IGN: ShinkuDragon HoukaPhoenix BoshokuRaven
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    panama

    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    the nice side of me says it's a tricky situation indeed, the bad part of me thinks that it's such a shame that once she dies of cancer, she won't be around to see she was wrong.

  3. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    On the news they said she was what 9 months away from 18 so they have that time to try and kill the cancer otherwise she will most likely stop the treatment and die from her cancer instead of living with a high probability my problem with the matter is if the state didn't step in to save her life she would die and the mom would sue because they could have done something.

    Cancer isn't one of those things you can just ignore and beat it treatment is necesary

  4. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Guess her mom either wants her dead or will get to live with the guilt she killed her own kid essentially. Assuming she actually gets to stop the chemo.

  5. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    One of two things could be happening here. She could actually view it as poison, in which case, I don't disagree, chemo not only didn't work with my grandfather at all but it also made his last few months a living hell instead of just letting him die happily and in good overall health aside from the cancer. Or, she could actually be suicidal, in which case, I still think they should respect her wishes, forcing someone to live when they want to die is a terrible thing to do to a person, especially if she is essentially an adult already; a couple months doesn't make any difference biologically.

    In both cases, pineapple the court.

  6. I post a lot Bi Male
    IGN: ZesseiBijin
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    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Her mother apparently has a "mistrust" of physicians, and considering her stance on chemo, calling it "toxins" and "poison", it sounds like she is trying to fix it with alternative medicine (or prayer), hence her insistence that she won't die.

    Sad to hear about your grandfather, but it's a bit different here, apparently she has at least 2 years left if she doesn't get treatment, but 80-85% is more than a good enough chance to try it, especially at her young age. It sounds like your grandfather was dying anyway without much chance of a cure, so the situations are much different.

    Also she isn't suicidal, she wants to live, but she believes (probably due to her mother) that chemo is not what she wants, she and her mother 100% believe that she is going to survive the cancer without chemo, despite doctors telling her she won't.

    Also her mother didn't take her to doctors appointments and such, and so got custody taken away from her for being a neglectful parent.

    I actually completely agree with the courts here, neither of them are in a sound mind to make this decision. If they were, it would be different.

  7. ᗧ ᗣ ᗣ ᗣ Straight Male
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    finland

    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Or she could have a religious family similar to those "Faith-healing" cases where children died of common illness because of their parents refusing from medical treatment.

    http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/...ld-protection/

    EDIT:

    Ninjad by Razmos.

  8. I post a lot Bi Male
    IGN: ZesseiBijin
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    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    I'm not sure if it is religious based, but the mother definitely values alternative methods over traditional medicine.

  9. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Yes but those families are quick to pull the Religion card

  10. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    I'm not saying I don't think chemo helps, it does, but it's a balancing act of suffering versus survival rate. 80% is good enough, but what if you are that 20%? Then you not only die, but you die in an incredibly pomegranatety situation where you can't do anything for yourself and your body has wasted away to nothing. Maybe she's willing to accept that, but maybe she isn't. I wouldn't, but I'm an unlucky person anyway, 80% isn't very high when I fail at upgrading items all the time at 99% success!

  11. I post a lot Bi Male
    IGN: ZesseiBijin
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    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    In maple terms I completely agree haha, 85% chance is more like 5%. But in cancer terms, I think personally 80% is a good enough chance. (hell, personally, If I had cancer I would try even a 15% chance)

    There is definitely more at work here than just her worrying about the side effects; she claims that she doesn't want the chemo to make her infertile, which I guess is valid, but it's like "If I can't have children i'd rather not live" which is definitely not a reason to die. She has also apparently claimed that she doesn't want to make her mother angry by accepting chemo.

    I think the benefits far outweigh the risks in this case, anyway.

  12. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Yeah but sitting back as your organs shut down doesn't sound very pleasant either and i always thought nexon % was pomegranate anyway 80% is a big deal when it comes down to living or dying

  13. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Natural selection. If you're dumb enough to think modern medicine is a "poison" or whatever, buh-bye. It's absolutely pointless to try and reason with these people, especially the ones that start throwing around the religious card. Your choice. Have fun being dead.
    We're struggling with overpopulation anyway.

  14. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    I need to make a comment here. When patients are diagnosed with cancer that must undergo chemo treatment, it is extremely important for physicians to inform the patient and the family

    1) what's the survival rate of the cancer
    2) if no treatment, expected life expectancy
    2') if no treatment, QoL effects after x and y years
    3) if treatment, what's the success rate
    4) if treatment, projected life expectancy (preferably at some confidence level)
    5) if treatment, relapse period
    6) if treatment, side effects and duration of side effects i.e. QoL

    For many, many cancers, especially late stage ones where treatment success rate is low and expected life duration left is <6 months, doctors must weigh the patient's QoL heavily, and advise the patient that no treatment is as equally viable as having the treatment. Often, doctors want to cure a disease, but they neglect the purpose of doing so, which is to make life better, not prolong the pain. Long, painful life, or short and happy life? Most medical schools now have ethics courses etc. that talk about this (but which many students think "bah, ethics, I know it all, I'll be a good boy/girl" and skip it).

    Hadriel

  15. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    The issue is that the patient is still a minor. You say that if the girl is dumb enough to believe that chemo is "poison", she deserves to die, but would you feel the same way if the girl was younger? Most people would say that 17 is close enough to 18 that it wouldn't matter, but if you actually read the article instead of just the headline you would see stuff like:

    "But Connecticut Attorney General George Jepsen has raised questions about the competency of both Cassandra and her mother in a recently filed court brief."

    "Jackie Fortin, who brought up Cassandra on her own following a divorce, failed to bring her daughter to at least four doctor's appointments last summer and fall —two months before a noticeable lump in the teen's neck finally was diagnosed as cancer, court records show."

    "Ultimately, a team of doctors formed to treat Cassandra's cancer became concerned with Fortin's behavior, worrying "that Cassandra's mother was not coming in and getting the appropriate medical … care for this … malignant disease which is lethal if it's untreated," according to the brief filed by Jepsen. "…Interestingly enough, Cassandra also expressed concerns about not wanting to anger her mother because her mother was very distrustful of physicians.""

    "Doctors eventually notified child-welfare agents at DCF about their growing concerns. And during at a court hearing on the matter late last year, a judge observed "how closely (Cassandra) followed her mother's testimony and hung on her every word. The DCF investigations worker (also) testified … that Cassandra's mother did not appear to be in support of the chemotherapy and that Cassandra is concerned about going against what her mother would like to see happen," Jepsen's brief states."

  16. I post a lot Bi Male
    IGN: ZesseiBijin
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    Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    I can see how that is relevant for someone who has a very low chance of survival, in which case they might want to go out peacefully without the chemo. But it isn't exactly relevant here, since the type of cancer is an easily treatable one (in comparison at least), in its earliest stages and with a very high chance of success.

    The problem here is that the doctors have taken all of that into account and decided that chemo is the best option, but the girl has denied treatment despite this, not on grounds of QoL but because of misinformation given to her by her mother.

    (Also the fact that the state has taken her under its care since it ruled the mother unfit to take care of her)

  17. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    That's where the debate comes in.

    Should parents have the final say?
    What about the minor? How can we judge if they have enough knowledge to make the right decision? Who's to decide what the right decision is?

    I personally believe if a parent has the final say in something like this, and they decide to stop medication, then that's their decision. There are a LOT of people with a LOT of medical problems (including me), and in a lot of cases, if it were 100 years ago, we'd all be dead already.
    I think it's silly to spend a lot of time on ethics problems like these. Everyone will die some day, the most we can do is prolong it. I think time should be spent focused on keeping the human race alive as a species, advancing society, and things that will benefit everyone as a whole.


    Again. Tricky subject. Most people get emotionally invested in topics like this.

  18. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    court made the right decision

    i can guarantee that if she was at her deathbed, after refusing treatment, she'd go into a sobbing panic of "WHY DID YOU LET ME DO THIS"

  19. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Sure, but that's kind of a given; if she takes it and still is on her deathbed, the results will be the same or worse. Using that as a reason is just using emotions to sway opinion. I think the mother is an idiot and it seems like the girl is more scared of upsetting her mother than doing what she wants, but the court is also wrong, they are "doing the right thing for the wrong reason", it's coincidental that what they are doing is correct, because they would have done the same thing if the girl had made the decision completely for herself.

  20. Default Re: Court forces 17 year old to take Chemo treatments against her will


    Ah no, I was writing half a mind about Flonne's post, my apologies for the ambiguity. I'm sure we can see why the mother and daughter are both incapable of coherent logical reasoning. In which case, the State has the power, and in this case is (lawfully) right, to take the daughter into protection (reads as custody too). The problem is that the daughter, being incapable of logical reasoning, will stop the treatment once she is legally adult, and unless the state or the medical team wants to spend even more money supporting the case that the daughter is an adult incapable of logical reasoning, this will be the most likely end result. A few months make little difference biologically, but in black and white it's a deal breaker. Prosecuting the mother will only make things worse, in that the daughter will take revenge on the state by going against the treatment. She's still a teenager, she's also having cancer, she's probably also having emotional problems because of her cancer and impending doom. It's all very complicated in psychology... probably.

    And then she will probably die if she doesn't complete her treatment and eradicate the cancer, and the mum will accuse the doctors of killing her with poison. And if she lives, they will choose to believe that their prayers/alternative treatment/etc. worked but took a long time. Us as scientists... it's also our job to educate the lay people about science in general. Sadly, we cannot force people to understand. It's even harder for us to refute claims and such that are not falsifiable, as lame as they seem on first glance.

    It's true though... chemotherapy IS using poison, in that the drugs have a much higher tox. profile. It's not necessarily about that though, since the dose makes the drug and the poison... too much of anything will kill you, be it water, sugar, salt, paracetamol, truth, lies...

    Hadriel

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