Onyx Ring Discussion

[Marksman Bryan]

That's utterly... err... disgusting.

Hadriel

I would be very interested in this for a bowmaster... if I hadn't already sold my bow
I picked up a pair of tyrant bowman gloves for cheap, and since I had 100% crit as a BM, I'd absolutely cube those for min crit%

[EMSKakaoTalk]

I'm leaving 4 tables here for people to consider the value of min/maxcritdmg when replacing %STAT lines. They are read in the same way as detailed above. I've factored in the 4th legendary tier for lvl 151+ equips, as well as if people decide to replace both %STAT potential lines with min/maxcritdmg. It's worth noting that min/maxcritdmg comes from Pool E only i.e. primary Legendary lines.

Again, equipment compared should be unequipped, and any negative mean illogical values e.g. it is impossible for a 6%STAT line to beat 2 15%min/maxcritdmg lines.

Comparision of +5% avgcritdmg against %STAT assuming 100% crit rate

Average Crit Damage	DPS Increase	v.s. 6%STAT	v.s. 7%STAT	v.s. 12%STAT	v.s. 13%STAT
35%	3.70%	62%	89%	224%	251%
40%	3.57%	68%	96%	236%	264%
45%	3.45%	74%	103%	248%	277%
50%	3.33%	80%	110%	260%	290%
55%	3.23%	86%	117%	272%	303%
60%	3.13%	92%	124%	284%	316%
65%	3.03%	98%	131%	296%	329%
70%	2.94%	104%	138%	308%	342%
75%	2.86%	110%	145%	320%	355%
80%	2.78%	116%	152%	332%	368%
85%	2.70%	122%	159%	344%	381%
90%	2.63%	128%	166%	356%	394%
95%	2.56%	134%	173%	368%	407%
100%	2.50%	140%	180%	380%	420%

Comparision of +7.5% avgcritdmg against %STAT assuming 100% crit rate

Average Crit Damage	DPS Increase	v.s. 6%STAT	v.s. 7%STAT	v.s. 12%STAT	v.s. 13%STAT
35%	5.56%	8%	26%	116%	134%
40%	5.36%	12%	31%	124%	143%
45%	5.17%	16%	35%	132%	151%
50%	5.00%	20%	40%	140%	160%
55%	4.84%	24%	45%	148%	169%
60%	4.69%	28%	49%	156%	177%
65%	4.55%	32%	54%	164%	186%
70%	4.41%	36%	59%	172%	195%
75%	4.29%	40%	63%	180%	203%
80%	4.17%	44%	68%	188%	212%
85%	4.05%	48%	73%	196%	221%
90%	3.95%	52%	77%	204%	229%
95%	3.85%	56%	82%	212%	238%
100%	3.75%	60%	87%	220%	247%

Comparision of +10% avgcritdmg against %STAT assuming 100% crit rate

Average Crit Damage	DPS Increase	v.s. 6%STAT	v.s. 7%STAT	v.s. 12%STAT	v.s. 13%STAT	v.s. 18%STAT	v.s. 20%STAT	v.s. 24%STAT	v.s. 26%STAT
35%	7.41%	-19%	-5%	62%	76%	143%	170%	224%	251%
40%	7.14%	-16%	-2%	68%	82%	152%	180%	236%	264%
45%	6.90%	-13%	2%	74%	89%	161%	190%	248%	277%
50%	6.67%	-10%	5%	80%	95%	170%	200%	260%	290%
55%	6.45%	-7%	9%	86%	102%	179%	210%	272%	303%
60%	6.25%	-4%	12%	92%	108%	188%	220%	284%	316%
65%	6.06%	-1%	16%	98%	115%	197%	230%	296%	329%
70%	5.88%	2%	19%	104%	121%	206%	240%	308%	342%
75%	5.71%	5%	23%	110%	128%	215%	250%	320%	355%
80%	5.56%	8%	26%	116%	134%	224%	260%	332%	368%
85%	5.41%	11%	30%	122%	141%	233%	270%	344%	381%
90%	5.26%	14%	33%	128%	147%	242%	280%	356%	394%
95%	5.13%	17%	37%	134%	154%	251%	290%	368%	407%
100%	5.00%	20%	40%	140%	160%	260%	300%	380%	420%

Comparision of +15% avgcritdmg against %STAT assuming 100% crit rate

Average Crit Damage	DPS Increase	v.s. 6%STAT	v.s. 7%STAT	v.s. 12%STAT	v.s. 13%STAT	v.s. 18%STAT	v.s. 20%STAT	v.s. 24%STAT	v.s. 26%STAT
35%	11.11%	-46%	-37%	8%	17%	62%	80%	116%	134%
40%	10.71%	-44%	-35%	12%	21%	68%	87%	124%	143%
45%	10.34%	-42%	-32%	16%	26%	74%	93%	132%	151%
50%	10.00%	-40%	-30%	20%	30%	80%	100%	140%	160%
55%	9.68%	-38%	-28%	24%	34%	86%	107%	148%	169%
60%	9.38%	-36%	-25%	28%	39%	92%	113%	156%	177%
65%	9.09%	-34%	-23%	32%	43%	98%	120%	164%	186%
70%	8.82%	-32%	-21%	36%	47%	104%	127%	172%	195%
75%	8.57%	-30%	-18%	40%	52%	110%	133%	180%	203%
80%	8.33%	-28%	-16%	44%	56%	116%	140%	188%	212%
85%	8.11%	-26%	-14%	48%	60%	122%	147%	196%	221%
90%	7.89%	-24%	-11%	52%	65%	128%	153%	204%	229%
95%	7.69%	-22%	-9%	56%	69%	134%	160%	212%	238%
100%	7.50%	-20%	-7%	60%	73%	140%	167%	220%	247%

In many ways, this isn't a startling discovery because we knew of diminishing returns from a long time ago. However we have always been cubing for %STAT.

Thus, if your %STAT is more than the value in the table for the given DPS increase, then min/maxcritdmg is superior to %STAT of that column.
e.g. if you have 60% average crit damage, 250%STAT before your glove is equipped and you have 100%crit rate, you should be going for 2 lines of min/maxcritdmg instead of 2 x 13%STAT lines /* 250%STAT --> 276%STAT gives only 7.43% DPS increase, whereas 60%avgcritdmg --> 75%avgcritdmg gives 9.38% DPS increase */ .

An idea for you, @Mazz;, @Marksman Bryan; and the usual guys?

Hadriel

Hello sorry for being stupid but I don't understand how you got the values in the "vs x% stat" columns. Do you mind explaining how you got these values?

[SaptaZapta]

In many ways, this isn't a startling discovery because we knew of diminishing returns from a long time ago. However we have always been cubing for %STAT.

Thus, if your %STAT is more than the value in the table for the given DPS increase, then min/maxcritdmg is superior to %STAT of that column.
e.g. if you have 60% average crit damage, 250%STAT before your glove is equipped and you have 100%crit rate, you should be going for 2 lines of min/maxcritdmg instead of 2 x 13%STAT lines /* 250%STAT --> 276%STAT gives only 7.43% DPS increase, whereas 60%avgcritdmg --> 75%avgcritdmg gives 9.38% DPS increase */ .

We have always been cubing for %STAT because most types of equipment can't get any other useful potential lines.

[hadriel]

Hello sorry for being stupid but I don't understand how you got the values in the "vs x% stat" columns. Do you mind explaining how you got these values?

For a given DPS increase (simply called "Z", and expressed in decimals), and an independently varied %STAT (called "X", in decimals), you want to find out how much inherent %STAT (called "Y", in decimals) would cause an additional X to give a DPS increase of Z. The equation to be set up is:

((Y+1) + X)/(Y+1) = 1 + Z

Which simplifies into

X/(Y+1) = Z

You control X, and you have Z, so you want to find out Y, which simply becomes

Y = X/Z - 1

or in percentage form, it will be Y% = (X%/Z% - 1)*100%

And a sanity check and dimensional analysis confirms the case.

We have always been cubing for %STAT because most types of equipment can't get any other useful potential lines.

Indeed there are very few potential lines on armour that are potentially useful (pun not intended). People know about %cr, %ATT, %DMG, %Boss and %PDRIgnore of course, but that's for weapons. Cubing for dSI, dSE and dAB is extremely costly while maintaining the rest of the lines, and the common trend is to have them on separate equipment for rebuffing purposes. +3 allskills is worthless if it doesn't break skill cap, and utility skills like +x seconds invulnerability or %statusresist is less valued than %STAT. Probably only %drop is valued, and they are still on separate equipment.

Hence I did this math to highlight to people the need to diversify their lines and lessen the diminishing returns effect from building up %STAT only. Because of the retarded way %Boss, %DMG and Hyperskills are coded and the extreme large values that %Boss provide relative to other lines, %Boss is still the most important line for weapons, followed by %PDRIgnore and %ATT. These parts of the potential system still frustrate me as of today.

Hadriel

[Mazz]

-snip-

An idea for you, @Mazz;, @Marksman Bryan; and the usual guys?

Hadriel

I would've tested this if I could, but I quit playing MS a couple of weeks ago. I had been planning on cubing a pair of Tyrant gloves for %crit damage when they were released, but they came out just as I stopped playing xD thanks for the numbers though, really interesting to read!

[TugboatWilly]

I would be very interested in this for a bowmaster... if I hadn't already sold my bow

you did the right thing, friend

[OrionTempest]

(Just going to ask here since it pertains to the current event)

With this being my current rings and stats without buffs, would this event even be worth doing on my main? And if so, which stat would benefit the most?

Critical Damage is 53% ~ 69% with dSE, 53% ~ 94% with dSE and max Ice Counters.
Critical Rate is 100% on Chain Lightning, 97% on Frozen Orb, again, with dSE.

Spoiler

[byakugan]

I am leaning towards getting the Thunder upgrade since I'll be getting it on a Hero (the stun might help?) and I barely have 30% critical chance right now, but boss damage seems like the best option.

Any thoughts¿

[Raph589]

In my opinion, boss damage is where it's at since Hadriel pretty much proved minimum and maximum critical damage don't do pomegranate...

[kayeyearekay]

do not npc spam through the story, there is no ring-accept conformation.
so now im stuck with flame ring; max crit isnt horrid, but min crit is better

[Kuraitou]

@OrionTempest;

I worked through comparing rings last night. This is what I came up with.

Here is a function that computes the damage increase given new/old crit damage and new/old crit rate.

f(c, cn, r, rn) = ((rn * cn + (1 - rn)) - (r * c + (1 - r))) / (r * c + (1 - r))

where c = average crit damage, cn = new average crit damage, r = crit rate, r = new crit rate

This is an abstract formula since it doesn't deal with your range directly. You need to unequip each of your rings one by one and multiply the calculated damage increase by your lowered range, then you can figure the difference between your current range and range if you had a specific sylph ring.

In your case:

f(1.61, 1.66, 1.0, 1.0) = 3.1% average increase in damage for CL + dSE + 10% min/max crit ring
f(1.735, 1.785, 1.0, 1.0) = 2.9% average increase in damage for CL + dSE + Ice Counters + 10% min/max crit ring

f(1.61, 1.61, 0.97, 1.0) = 1.1% increase for FO with dSE + 10% crit ring
f(1.61, 1.66, 0.97, 0.97) = 3.0% increase for FO with dSE + 10% min/max crit ring
f(1.735, 1.785, 0.97, 0.97) = 2.8% increase for FO with dSE + Ice Counters + 10% min/max crit ring



BUT! 10% boss damage is clearly the winner if you boss a lot, right? Actually there are diminishing returns. That is, if you have 10% BD and you add another 10% BD, your damage is not actually increasing by 10%. It's actually increasing by roughly 9%.

Adding a 10% ring to these existing BD amounts:

Spoiler

0% BD = 10% increase in damage
10% BD = 9% increase in damage
30% BD = 7.7% increase in damage
50% BD = 6.7% increase in damage
70% BD = 5.9% increase in damage
100% BD = 5% increase in damage
150% BD = 4% increase in damage
200% BD = 3.3% increase in damage

Important: You can essentially add 20% BD for skills that have reinforce hyper skills since reinforce stacks additively with BD. Therefore, the benefits you actually get from a BD ring can be less.

How does this stack up to crit rate/crit damage overall? Skip to the last bit of this post to see general numbers.



10% def ignore is a bit tougher to calculate since it varies by boss and current def ignore sources:
I don't think this is accurate, I will revisit it at a later time.

g(pdr, ni, ei) = 
  let a = 1 - pdr * (1 - ni) * (1 - ei)
      b = 1 - pdr * (1 - ei)

  a - b iff a >= 0
      0 iff a < 0

where pdr = the monster's pdr stat, ni = new ignore source, ei = existing ignore sources already multiplied together

Spoiler

CVellum, 50% ignore + def ignore ring: g(3.0, 0.1, 0.50) = 0% increase in damage (PDR still greater than 1)
CVellum, 60% ignore + def ignore ring: g(3.0, 0.1, 0.60) = 0% increase in damage
CVellum, 70% ignore + def ignore ring: g(3.0, 0.1, 0.70) = 9% increase in damage
CVellum, 80% ignore + def ignore ring: g(3.0, 0.1, 0.80) = 6% increase in damage
CVellum, 90% ignore + def ignore ring: g(3.0, 0.1, 0.90) = 3% increase in damage

CVB, 50% ignore + def ignore ring: g(2.0, 0.1, 0.50) = 10% increase in damage
CVB, 70% ignore + def ignore ring: g(2.0, 0.1, 0.70) = 6% increase in damage
CVB, 90% ignore + def ignore ring: g(2.0, 0.1, 0.90) = 2% increase in damage

Emp, 50% ignore + def ignore ring: g(0.70, 0.10, 0.50) = 3.5% increase in damage
Emp, 70% ignore + def ignore ring: g(0.70, 0.10, 0.70) = 2.1% increase in damage
Emp, 90% ignore + def ignore ring: g(0.70, 0.10, 0.90) = 0.7% increase in damage

General conclusions: min/max crit rings can add 5% average damage AT BEST. Other rings potentially add more than that depending on your existing stats.

1. A min/max crit ring will have varying amounts of effectiveness depending on how much crit damage you already have:

Spoiler

135% average crit damage (default)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+0.48%
20%	+0.93%
30%	+1.36%
40%	+1.75%
50%	+2.13%
60%	+2.48%
70%	+2.81%
80%	+3.13%
90%	+3.42%
100%	+3.70%

142.5% average crit damage (dSE or advanced mastery)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+0.48%
20%	+0.92%
30%	+1.33%
40%	+1.71%
50%	+2.06%
60%	+2.39%
70%	+2.70%
80%	+2.99%
90%	+3.25%
100%	+3.51%

150% average crit damage (dSE and advanced mastery, or SE)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+0.48%
20%	+0.91%
30%	+1.30%
40%	+1.67%
50%	+2.00%
60%	+2.31%
70%	+2.59%
80%	+2.86%
90%	+3.10%
100%	+3.33%

157.5% average crit damage (advanced mastery and SE)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+0.47%
20%	+0.90%
30%	+1.28%
40%	+1.63%
50%	+1.94%
60%	+2.23%
70%	+2.50%
80%	+2.74%
90%	+2.97%
100%	+3.17%

2. Crit rate rings add varying amounts of damage depending on your current crit rate and average crit damage:

Spoiler

135% average crit damage (default)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+3.38%
20%	+3.27%
30%	+3.17%
40%	+3.07%
50%	+2.98%
60%	+2.89%
70%	+2.81%
80%	+2.73%
90%	+2.66%

142.5% average crit damage (dSE or advanced mastery)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+4.08%
20%	+3.92%
30%	+3.77%
40%	+3.63%
50%	+3.51%
60%	+3.39%
70%	+3.28%
80%	+3.17%
90%	+3.07%

150% average crit damage (dSE and advanced mastery, or SE)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+4.76%
20%	+4.55%
30%	+4.35%
40%	+4.17%
50%	+4.00%
60%	+3.85%
70%	+3.70%
80%	+3.57%
90%	+3.45%

157.5% average crit damage (advanced mastery and SE)

Crit Rate	Damage Increase
10%	+5.44%
20%	+5.16%
30%	+4.90%
40%	+4.67%
50%	+4.47%
60%	+4.28%
70%	+4.10%
80%	+3.94%
90%	+3.79%

3. Once you reach 150%+ BD you should start looking at crit rate and crit damage rings

4. Def ignore adds a varying amount and is hardly reliable as a source of damage output. I believe it is more effective to use almost any of the other rings since they add stats that are harder to get than def ignore.

5. The status resist ring is highly undervalued!

[Onion Knight]

Just to clarify, you get 5 scrolls of +8 stat on week 2 and 5 of +1 atk/matk on week 3 right? So you'll end up with a 50+stat/5+atk ring by the end of the event if you hit all 10?

Probably going to go with the status resist ring on my main since it's the only one of any real functional use to her. She has more than enough %boss/%ignore/%critrate from other sources, given the wizardry in this thread I can't justify replacing a 15%INT ring with min/max crit and that 0% innate resistance starts hurting when Foxfire runs dry, which it does more often than I'd like.

[TugboatWilly]

200% BD = 3.3% increase in damage

OUCH. It seems I picked the wrong ring and should've gone with crit damage. Oh well, not sure if I'll even use it anyway.

[SaptaZapta]

Oh crap.
This ring has a visible effect. The "summon", I guess.
There goes any desire I had to use it.

Do Koreans really like screen clutter that much?

[Worthyness]

Since the ring can't have actual potential, wouldn't using a potentialable ring with a set effect be better than this by a lot anyway?

[SaptaZapta]

Since the ring can't have actual potential, wouldn't using a potentialable ring with a set effect be better than this by a lot anyway?

Some of us don't have four rings with good potential, with or without a set effect.

[hadriel]

Looks like I did all those calculations (and horrible typing into tables) for naught, and my conclusions are cherry-picked out of context.

Hadriel

[Thorr]

Looks like I did all those calculations (and horrible typing into tables) for naught, and my conclusions are cherry-picked out of context.

Hadriel

Yours are more useful. By a lot.

[koplje]

Oh crap.
This ring has a visible effect. The "summon", I guess.
There goes any desire I had to use it.

Do Koreans really like screen clutter that much?

It's a barely visible floating light. At least it's not LGR or WAB tiers of clutter.

[Setsuykie]

I just started this event today because I was busy with school and didn't know about it. Is there any point in continuing? Also, does it count the weeks from when you start or as the event goes on? I really wanted the skin from the 4th week but if I can't get it then I feel like there's no point.