The newest debacle facing league.
I'm not going to go into details - they're all over reddit if you don't know - as I want to give as little bias as possible.
What are your thoughts on the programs and their use/allowance in league?
The newest debacle facing league.
I'm not going to go into details - they're all over reddit if you don't know - as I want to give as little bias as possible.
What are your thoughts on the programs and their use/allowance in league?
I have Curse Voice but I never used it since I barely played League this week.
In my standpoint, just implement it to the client. I'm sure that they'll unveil the client and SR change during all stars.
My cousin and I play duo ranked with curse voice and it actually help us a lot, we can play just like if we were next to each other. Also the advantages aren't that huge beside the voice talk (Cooldown on party's members ultimates and Dragon/Baron timer that only restarts if your team kill them). I'm okay with it.
I've got it and don't see what the hype is about. I really like the auto connecting voice chat for YoloQ and hope it continues to become popular for that reason alone.
I couldn't care less about the baron/dragon and ult timers. I rarely have time to check my allies ult timers and I did baron/drag timers before CV. If anything, timers have made it harder for me since I will occasionally forget to note the time when the enemy likely killed them if we don't have vision. I should probably turn them off...
To be honest the functions that curse voice gives should be available in game already. I have it and I've only used the voice function once and that was with a friend but I could see it being useful for people that I don't quite feel deserve to be added on skyperino
If you want to communicate with people, use skype. If you want to keep track of timers, jungle or do so when you see/take the buff. simple pomegranate.
I see it as convenient with the voice aspect, and like it as a stand alone add on, but the timers should all ready be a part of the game IMO. I see the pro and con arguments for it, and remain neutral about it. My fear is if it gets out of hand. Riot has all ready stated their stance on it, and other 3rd party programs in general, even though it's done little to allay the worries of others.
do whatever floats your boat. If you're reliant on an outside system to maintain events in the game that's on you.
I haven't been able to test out the voice system, since there aren't probably many of them in LAN. The timers have helped me become more aware of Dragon.
I don't really bother with ally ult timers, I'd rather have summoner timers.
The main problem I have with the majority of it is the elitism it could create. Regardless of any sort of advantage it could create, I can only see it becoming a worse version of lolking/lolnexus where people will use it as an excuse to be rude to each other.
"WHY DIDN'T YOU LISTEN TO ME? WHY DON'T YOU HAVE CURSE VOICE CHAT SO I CAN TELL YOU WHAT TO DO? WHY DON'T YOU HAVE A MIC TO TALK TO US? REFUSING TO COMMUNICATE REPORTED."
"WHY DIDN'T YOU COME TO DRAGON WITH US WE ALL KNEW IT WAS SPAWNING. OH YOU DON'T HAVE CURSE VOICE CHAT? WOW NO WONDER YOU SUCK"
Adding any sort of non-mandatory addition to the game just creates a more hostile environment.
And I still stand by the belief that it could extremely dumb down the game. Timings are an acquired skill. Whether or not you need to write a time down for it, the ability to intuitively know when something is spawning or when an ability will be up is gleaned over time. I can usually run around the jungle and know when things spawn without timing them because it's something I've learned.
The ability to communicate with your team through actions and simple commands is an interesting dynamic that the game provides. Giving everyone the ability to talk only invites further trolling and rage. People arguing, not listening to each other, not helping each other...it's just going to expand rapidly. Finding a way to sync up with your team is something that also takes time and skill to get used to. There's a reason that 5s is different than solo queue.
As an example, when I play and engage a teamfight, I expect my team to back me up. If they disagree and don't follow, then I'm in the wrong. I learn to play better from making that mistake. I shouldn't have to yell at my team to engage, and I shouldn't have to get mad at them because they didn't. Engaging is an intuitive process that's very indicative of skill. Removing the intuition from that is destroying the point of solo queue.
@y0y0y0y0shi0; There are already plenty of trolls and raging with type only. How exactly would have optional voice chat make it worse? You can always mute them just like with in game chat. You have not made any clear argument about why you think people will consider CV "mandatory" and it's not like anyone has ever been banned for "refusing to communicate" anyway. If anything, I'd like to simply see voice chat integrated into the game, but CV does a nice job already.
While engaging and grouping are currently highly intuitive, do they have to be? With addition of pings, Riot has made a clear statement that offering clearer communication can only be a good thing. It hasn't in any way flattened the skill curve. I don't see voice chat as any different in principle.
The point isn't the effect they could have on you. Sure, muting does stop you from hearing their rage, but it doesn't give them any less of a reason to stop being angry. It gives them another reason to find excuses as to why they're doing poorly and another person to blame for it.
It's not that people get banned for refusing to communicate. Getting banned isn't the problem. Something unnecessarily creating issues and divides within a team is much more problematic.
Yes, people are already raging with typing. But just as talking is easier to communicate, so too is it easier to rage with. Muting everyone else because they're raging completely defeats the purpose of the voice chat in the first place.
I didn't say anything pertaining to why people will think CV will be mandatory because I didn't think it needed to be said. Look at the thousands of people that have already received CV keys and who are using it. Look at the thousands of people subscribing to twitch streamers specifically because they're giving CV keys to subs. If it exists and it makes the game easier, then people will flock to it. WoW is a prime example of that.
Hell, even maple is seeing it in droves. Hacking is commonplace, and the idea that buying NX items is mandatory for characters to do well is only a hop skip and a jump away from that; they're not much different.
You're trying to say that the program is optional, yet at the same time saying that it will simplify the game and make it easier. I see those two as highly contradictory. If it's allowed, optional, and makes the game easier, why wouldn't it become mandatory?
There's a very large difference between principle and practice. Pings and voice chat are both means to the same end, but one offers unnecessary complexities.
Although it's a team-oriented game, solo queue is reliant on the skills of the player. How much different is being carried by a friend in duo queue, and doing nothing but blindly listening to the commands of a smurf or a better player through voice chat? It lets people skate by on everyone else's coattails.
And obviously there would be a rather large problem with shy/quieter players trying to contest the ideas of louder, more verbal players. A shyer platinum player could get outshined because some loud bronze rallies the entire team to their poor decisions.
But the idea isn't just the problems it could create in gameplay. It's the idea that allowing these types of programs also allows for more complex and invasive programs. It's WoW syndrome. Take a look at some of the master yi and cassioepeia programs circling around. Allowing one allows another.
One of the posts I really liked on reddit talked about how it removes the human error from the game. Having it automate timers removes the ability for someone to make a mistake and write the wrong time or forget about the timer. Skill at its most basic level is the difference between players to make mistakes. Removing an aspect of that is putting it one step closer to botting.
How far off is simplifying the timers on objectives and buffs to simplifying the timers on enemy cooldowns and the like? They're the exact same thing. They're both gleaned through learning the game and getting the timings down.
Also, in addition to the shyness thing, think about other effects voice chat with strangers could create. A guy with a feminine voice could get flamed for being gay, people could be attacked racially for having a distinct accent or voice...
I really don't give a pomegranate because buff/dragon/baron timers are so easy to memorize anyways (seriously, I thought it was hard until I actually looked at it, and went "oh, it's 5/6/7 minutes for large buffs/dragon/baron, respectively.")
Champion ultimates are a bit more interesting, though. I haven't even bothered memorizing those yet, but I think Summoner spells are more crucial when debating whether to all-in or not.
Last edited by Corn; 2014-04-22 at 07:10 PM.
they either implement it into league itself or ban it. I shouldnt have to download a third party program to be able to keep up with others, if they allow this it'll be a sad day on the rift. theres also the question of where the line will be drawn afterwards if they do it.
I feel like it's only fair if everyone is able to use something like it or no gets to use it at all.
Asides from it also being able to track Champion Ultimates, I really don't see the problem with it. As Corn already said, it's not hard to manually track Red / Blue / Baron / Dragon timers, especially since we have chat timestamps in the game.
There's also the fact that I believe people think this tracks stuff you don't have vision on, which is not the case.
I don't play LoL but I saw some discussion over in the Dota 2 reddit and I thought I'd rather contribute here than there. The two are very similar games and I'd say that the communities are fairly similar too, at least when it comes to poor behavior and I got to say that ragers and flamers aren't that common in voice chat. I think I get flamed more often by people that type than by people who talk. Most of the times people won't even use either because pings and wheel chat commands (short sentences like "missing mid", "push", "I'm out" and stuff like that) are enough. Regardless, I think that having the option to use it (even if just to listen to others) is a whole lot better than having nothing at all. It's just up to the community to make good use of it and make it "ok" if you decide not to use it.
I've muted a whole lot of people (regardless of what method of communication they use) and it's not near the amount of people that are ok or friendly or cool or -something positive-. As much as I dislike flamers and ragers and whatnot I've also "met" cool players and I play every not so often with them so, no you're not gonna mute everyone and chances are you'll meet cool people too instead of only trolls, flamers, etc. I'm 100% sure that this isn't Dota 2 only, I'm certain there a whole lot of cool/friendly people that play LoL.
It won't win you games. You can communicate as much as you want with your teammates but if you aren't skilled enough it won't make a difference. Skill alone gets you further than communication in Dota 2 and I'd assume it's the same there. I've never used voice chat and most people I play with don't use it either, yet we win more than we lose.
Unless mechanical skill is irrelevant there, which I doubt, it doesn't matter if you get Sun-Tzu to tell you what to do, it won't get people carried there as it doesn't get people carried in Dota 2. I once got a team mate who drafted for us and was giving us "awesome" instructions but we couldn't perform them for several reasons, one of them being our skill level.
That is indeed a problem. If it's a bad decision people will gladly point it out and plan something else, and if that fails the first person gets annoyed at you.
The thing is that it's better to have the option to say "nooo! D:" than watch them mess up as you type "don't do that, you're going to die/whatever".
I guess it's a matter of preference, but I think it's unfair to only point out the cons.
I agree with you, having something else keep track of timers for you takes out a lot of skill/knowledge that makes the game "deep" and fun. If I were a LoL player I wouldn't oppose voice chat at all because there's an example of a very similar game that uses it and it works fine but I'd definitely be against any sort of cooldown/timer tracker.
You're completely right about that. I'd assume both communities react the same to "foreigners" or anyone with an accent and it truly sucks. I think it affects how much you can enjoy the game, even if you're not the one being flamed. I often tilt when pimentos start harassing someone because of their accent even if I know they're just trolling and baiting to start a stupid argument.
How much experience do you have playing other games with voice chat? I've played plenty of games with friends and strangers alike and voice chat does nothing to exacerbate these problems, beyond levels easily seen in type chat. Muting everyone does not defeat the purpose, it allows an option for constructive communication without making communication mandatory.. Not everyone will be worth talking to. That does not mean that no one is worth talking to.
You're significantly over estimating the number of people currently using CV. I've had it on since the beta began and only queued with two people that were using it. Both people were polite and focused on working together to win the game. In case you failed to notice, hacking existed in LoL before CV came along. There are already programs that automatically time buffs (even without vision) and even macros that do things like last hit or dodge skill shots. How exactly is CV creating a slippery slope when these programs already exist? IMHO hacking will not become as common place in LoL because the entire point of the game is competitive PvP. Sure there will always be a few people using autoaim or it's equivalent, but to the vast majority there's no point in winning by cheating.
I think you're overestimating the advantage CV and voice chat in general provides. It makes timers slightly easier and communication faster. This is not the same as making the mechanical skill or the team strategies any easier.
How is talking more complicated? It could easily be argued that it's simplifying communication since almost anyone can talk faster and more clearly than they can type.
DuoQs already use skype and other programs. Why should SoloQueuers in the same game be disadvantaged? Having someone make suggestions in voice chat will not improve your mechanical skill. It will not mean people will blindly follow one players directions. Even pros use skype programs and have designated shot callers who do exactly what you fear. Does Aphro and DoubleLift making shot calls mean everyone else is being carried? Hardly.
If it turns in to a shouting match (a scenario that I find unlikely), how is that any different from spamming in game chat logs to hide someone else's?
I'm ignoring this since I don't really care if the timers are included.
I think people are getting overly sensitive about this kind of thing. It's not that I condone such actions, but the idea that a video game must somehow create a safezone in which this can't happen is impractical at best. I've seen no evidence that this kind of teasing/harassment has become a serious, widespread problem in other games. It's certainly not as bad as in a real life high school.
From your general arguments, I think I can distill the debate down to this:
Do the benefits of improved communication out weigh the potential for abuse?
In my experience, the benefits are common and the abuse is rare. The abuse is probably more impactful, but this is mitigated by infrequency and of course the optionality of the whole system.
I think it's worth it.
The main thing I have to say, though, is that league isn't necessarily the same as other games in terms of playerbase. It's a much more widespread game with a wider range of audiences. In all the online games I've played, league is distinct in its ability to constantly amaze me with the level of douchebaggery and disrespect. That problem has only gotten worse as time has passed. League players in general are getting more toxic, and those who aren't are getting complacent and stop caring. The trolls who will use it will use it to scare off the ones that do. It's not that muting won't solve the problem, it's that muting will give people another reason to alienate their teammates. Teams shouldn't be given further reasons to have to ignore 1/5+ of their team. And outright ignoring those trolls will only make them troll more.
And for the record, I'm pretty sure 1 game out of the last 20 I've played of Dota 2 ended in a 5v5. I don't think that's a perfect example when people in Dota are even more notorious for giving up on games.
And the only reason not many people are using CV is because it's only like a few days old, and the only people who have it are the ones who got keys. The fact that I can hear a subscriber noise go off on a twitch stream like 30 times in less than a minute is rather indicative of the fact that people want it, and when it goes open source people will get it and it will become more widespread.
People want it because it makes the game easier for them. No 3rd party program should ever work that way.
"But people can time their own buffs!" Yes, they can. But no, they don't. People are lazy, don't care, or forget. Giving people free timers for things is rewarding laziness when it should be something they're doing of their own volition. Everyone's acting as if the timers aren't important because people do it regardless, but they don't. I RARELY see anyone who does in Diamond, even. And this feature isn't a non-factor, people are getting it specifically for this.
You're specifically saying that not everyone's going to use it, and that it will make timers and communication faster - ergo making the game easier in more than one aspect. In my opinion, mechanical skill and intuition are two parts of the coin of skill. Taking out intuition is taking out part of half of the players' skill.
I think you're vastly OVERestimating the integrity of the community.
And just because a video game doesn't have to create a safezone for racial tolerance, doesn't mean we should allow it to happen. Any steps taken to prevent it are better than none.
For as terrible as League players' behaviors are getting, don't let the CoD mentality make its way into League.
My main issue with this is:
If people don't even have an intention of using it, what's the point of it? How much benefit could it actually provide if no one's going to use it anyway? It gives some people an unfair advantage over the others, much moreso than duo queueing does, and it gives people another reason to be toxic to others just as much as lolking/lolnexus does, if not more. Whether or not the features could improve LoL if implemented into the game, 3rd party programs should not be tolerated.
Maybe we're just not getting queued with the same people or you're more sensitive to people in chat. Most of the people in my games are trying to win and, with some persistence, willing to group for suggested objectives. There are of course people raging, feeding, or just refusing to group but I do find that muting actually helps. Maybe it's just personal preference.
I have personally turned the timers off because it does indeed make me lazy. If I have the timers on, I will forget to time dragon/baron and am obviously disadvantaged if we do not have the direct vision which is required to automatically reset them. I've spoken with a few other people and they report similar tendencies. Laziness has it's own repercussions.
I'm confused about what you mean by "intuition". Are you referring to guessing when dragon/baron will come up or improved grouping and objective focus due to voice communication? Knowing what's going to happen from intuition and having the mechanical skill to do something about it are two very different talents. I can "feel" that a jungler may gank my lane soon, but that does not always mean I am able to escape it. At any rate, I don't think we're really trying to discuss this topic.
To quote Supreme Court Justice John Roberts, "The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race". Censorship (which is what banning voice chat amounts to), does not prevent racism or promote appropriate action for when it is encountered.
I think people will use it or a similar program. The automatic chat groups are very convenient and the client integration is quite nice. Obviously, voice chat would be pointless if no one is there to listen. That said, I do not see why the popularity of the program amongst some mandates the use by all. There's probably a fundamental difference of opinion on this statement. As for LoLKing and LoLNexus, they mostly provide very useful information to me as a player. I like to be able to track my overall statistics. The unbiased and comprehensive information help me monitor my efforts and improve. If you're talking about knowing eveyone's runes and masteries, I tried using that for a while but it made no impact on my performance and next to no difference in my itemization. It was more impactful with dual specs champs like Yi and Teemo were popular, but Riot has pretty much eliminated that issue anyway. Having the ability to spectate a game without having the client installed is a really awesome and completely harmless feature for instance.
As for DuoQ, all of your apocalyptic prophesies (yes I'm being dramatic) should be happening already. Most DuoQs use Skype for Voice Chat. In my experience, most also consist of two players separated by a fair skill gap. The only difference is they aren't strangers, which presumably limits the verbal abuse problem. I'd be interested to see if you think DuoQ is toxic and fosters laziness, disincentives player improvement, and is detrimental to "intuition" as you claim CV would.
Moral philosophy debate:
If the third party program provides improvements (value criteria: utilitarianism) for free, why should Riot outlaw them?
Third parties have usually been welcome in game communities because they can provide a lot of useful features that are not widely popular enough to get developer support or simply not cost effective. Take a look at skin customizations. These are provided by third party programs that alter only client sided model graphics. They are 100% harmless. Should your broad spectrum third party ban cover them? Should Riot allocate resources to crack down on this practice?
I think not. Third party programs should be evaluated on an individual basis because each has unique impacts with benefits and costs.
I am by no means equating CV with this example, merely trying to illustrate the unfairness and inefficiency of such a policy. Riot chose to work with a fairly open API to see what third parties would come up with. We certainly shouldn't accept everything they do with it, but we shouldn't categorically condemn it either.
So I got a beta key from Travis the other day, and my first impressions are "Wow, it's underwhelming."
I've only been in one game where someone else had Curse Voice, and he didn't want to use it.
Timers? Ridiculous. I hardly noticed them, not to mention they give the time until the next dragon/Baron. I already tell my chat the time of the next Baron/Dragon, and that's more important >_>. Ultimates? The green button was more than enough.
wait. that green button means that that person has their ultimate up?
wow. did not know that.
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