I am having trouble deciding what archer class to main but right now I'm leaning towards a WA because I like their skills.
From doing some digging and reading it feels like WA are pretty weak in GMS compared to other archers in the bossing/dojo category. I can be super funded and I need someone to assure me that I am picking the correct class to main and that all the funding would not go to waste.
I am really interested in bosses such as Magnus and ra bosses. Do you think wind archers can do well against them compared to mm's and bm's since they have the 50% physical damage resist thingy (the beginner skill). Do you think wind walk gives them a good advantage for dodging if mastered?
WAs have good hit/s, but they have virtually no %IgnorePDR. ANY class, at the upper funding limit, can kill anything... you just need the right stuff on your potentials.
IMO for a WA, you must have at least 40+30%IgnorePDR, and all of the other usual lines, to boss effectively. It's a great class, esp. with Wind Walk, and it's quite fun and flashy.
WAs have good hit/s, but they have virtually no %IgnorePDR.
Last I checked, they have 15% ignore pdr buff, 20% ignore on song of heaven, and a lower target's pdr by 10% (like threaten) with emerald dust. Seemed fine to me, but emerald dust isn't practical if you're doing a short term boss like dojo ones.
Last I checked, they have 15% ignore pdr buff, 20% ignore on song of heaven, and a lower target's pdr by 10% (like threaten) with emerald dust. Seemed fine to me, but emerald dust isn't practical if you're doing a short term boss like dojo ones.
Ok I missed the 15%PDRignore on Albatross Maximum. Better than none I guess, but insufficient altogether. The 15+10% just doesn't stand up against a solid 25% from other classes when attacking bosses with >=50%PDR.
Ok I missed the 15%PDRignore on Albatross Maximum. Better than none I guess, but insufficient altogether. The 15+10% just doesn't stand up against a solid 25% from other classes when attacking bosses with >=50%PDR.
Hadriel
You missed the song of heaven again, thats 20% built in hyper and 20% boss damage. I don't know what else you are going to fire on a boss, I would never think of firing vortex on something like Magnus. Most jobs only have say around 30% ignore pdr max. This job at least has 3 types of ignore pdr around.
You missed the song of heaven again, thats 20% built in hyper and 20% boss damage. I don't know what else you are going to fire on a boss, I would never think of firing vortex on something like Magnus. Most jobs only have say around 30% ignore pdr max. This job at least has 3 types of ignore pdr around.
All classes with Hyper skills will have a primary offensive skill that is Reinforced and possibly Ignore Guard/Boss Killer. That goes without saying. Yes so what I didn't mention Hypers? Yes I missed a couple of lines here and there from the skills. Does it change the argument? Do you know the implications of those numbers? You should read below, as should the OP @Hakudouchi;.
Introduction
Some classes start off with a 30%, whether it's a passive or stuck on an active skill -- in fact that's a good number of classes. Some classes are weaker because they start off smaller (say, Shadowers), and then have to make up with either Boss Killer or Ignore Guard, or they Ignore Elemental Resistance, or simply have larger numbers.
For WA, with Albatross Maximum only because mobile bosses like Hilla can simply move away (or you can summon again, but that's a tit-for-tat), you're standing at 15% base before Hypers only, and after Hypers it is 15%+20%. That leaves them about the same as standard classes with a solid 30%PDR. If you now compare them against classes with multiple sources of PDRIgnore (Demon Slayers, Marksmen etc.), then they do suck in comparision.
The point is: if you want to boss, being below average/normal is not enough. You want a summed PDRignore of at least 50% to boss somewhat decently -- throw yourself against Hilla, with a PDR of 50% and check the numbers, and you'll find that the difference is big between classes that are below average (~20-25%), normal (~30-35%), better (40-45%), and excellent (>=50%). Now look at how many classes are "excellent".
Let's answer OP's question: compare WA with other bow-type classes, so let's use Hilla (50%) as a normal Boss. No other potential lines.
Analysis
MMs have 25% (Marksmenship) + 50% (Weakness finding) + 20% (Snipe), and 1/3 of the time you have an additional 20% from Bullseye.
BMs have 25% (Marksmenship) + 50% (Armour Piercing), although the latter is luck-dependent and the numbers are a little tricky to crunch, suffice to say that when it sort of activates half the time.
WH have 30% (Wild Instinct) + 20% (Wild Arrow Blast, Hyper). I don't think I missed anything else...?
Mercedes used to ignore all def 40% of the time. Now they have 25% (Guardbreak) + 20% (Spikes Royale) + 20% (Spikes Royale Hyper) + 20% (Ishtar's Ring Hyper)
WA stands at 20% + 15% + (10%).
It's a little difficult to do the math for BMs, so I cheated and used JoeTang's numbers from his DPS table to find the PDR reduction factor, which stands at about 0.54-0.55 (let's use the smaller side, the smaller the number, the more effective it is). Calculating simlarly,
MMs have a PRF of 0.75*0.5*0.8 = 0.3 for 60 seconds, and 0.3*0.8 = 0.24 for 30 seconds with Bullseye on.
WHs have 0.7*0.8 = 0.56.
Mercs have 0.75*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.384
WAs have 0.8*0.85*0.9 = 0.612 with everything in.
Crunching it out with Hilla's 50%PDR, the above classes do the following percentage of their full DPS (formula being DPS = 1 - PDR*PRF):
MMs: 1 - 0.5*0.3 = 0.85 => 85% for 60 seconds, and 1 - 0.5*0.24 = 0.88 for 30 seconds (about the same generally but still significant in the long run).
BMs: 1 - 0.5*0.54 = 0.73 => 73%
WHs: 1 - 0.5*0.56 = 0.72 => 72%
Mercs: 1 - 0.5*0.384 = 0.808 => 80.8%
WA: 1 - 0.5*0.612 = 0.694 => 69.4%
In short, WAs are crap compared to other archers. Don't believe me? Go see JoeTang's thread here: http://www.southperry.net/showthread...=1#post1079761 Look at how much damage you lose by the time you hit 100%PDR. BMs lose about 2/3, MMs about 2/5, Mercs about 2/5, WHs about 3/5, and WA about 3/4.
Any boss that doesn't do %hp based attacks is a laugh to survive as a marksman.
Madman ranmaru hits what? 4k instead of 20k?
As long as you keep attacking and have your shield up, you can survive easily in any training map as well. Warrior grounds hits me for 1k damage if I even get hit at all.
Any boss that doesn't do %hp based attacks is a laugh to survive as a marksman.
Madman ranmaru hits what? 4k instead of 20k?
As long as you keep attacking and have your shield up, you can survive easily in any training map as well. Warrior grounds hits me for 1k damage if I even get hit at all.
To further level Zero vs Marksman before I catch back up in other vidya games. I'm so torn.
Originally Posted by hadriel
Wut... then my Luminous and Paladin... brb re-gearing my MM.
Hadriel
lol, Paladins still spit in the face of %-based attacks. Luminous, can't say the same.
lol, Paladins still spit in the face of %-based attacks. Luminous, can't say the same.
Our Dark Blessing orbs do negate 1/1 damage (mana goes to 1 though), and we do guard at a reasonable rate, but I haven't been fighting enough bosses with %HP attack so I can't vouch for that. Nonetheless my Luminous is strong enough to tank about 50k damage (that is, not DR obviously). Enough for most purposes, but obviously no one except DAs will go and tank stuff like Arky's screen crash and Vellum's Hyper Beam.
General consensus, since its easier and cheaper to rack up ignore pdr from GMS (ignore nebs, leafre codex, lum link, zero link, pirate deck, sweetwater or fafnir, emblems if you don't get % atk) I would usually tend to ignore what base ignore pdr of a class itself. However, I will admit I've played a number of them with low ignore pdr, which is why from my standpoint, they look just fine. Speaking even from a phantom's perspective (even though all they have is 30%), I barely lose out to any other jobs anywhere maybe other than being unable to ignore super def up and DR 100% of the time. I don't have experience with bowmans, but I was basing it from what I seen in some of other classes' performances.
Can't help much about ranmaru and such, mostly based on defense and other things like zero's link. I've actually tanked madman ranmaru with just a plain 38k hp easily on a xenon. Perks up to MM for having great survivability now.
I didn't realize Marksmen got so tanky. That's interesting.
Originally Posted by hadriel
Enough for most purposes, but obviously no one except DAs will go and tank stuff like Arky's screen crash
That's impossible, DAs can have like, 500k HP max, and Arky's screen crash does 999,999. Paladins have a very nice time ignoring it with Sarcosanctity, and even Divine Shield's guards. I believe bishops can do something similiar with Holy Magic Shell, and Kanna with foxfires?
All classes with Hyper skills will have a primary offensive skill that is Reinforced and possibly Ignore Guard/Boss Killer. That goes without saying. Yes so what I didn't mention Hypers? Yes I missed a couple of lines here and there from the skills. Does it change the argument? Do you know the implications of those numbers? You should read below, as should the OP @Hakudouchi;.
Introduction
Some classes start off with a 30%, whether it's a passive or stuck on an active skill -- in fact that's a good number of classes. Some classes are weaker because they start off smaller (say, Shadowers), and then have to make up with either Boss Killer or Ignore Guard, or they Ignore Elemental Resistance, or simply have larger numbers.
For WA, with Albatross Maximum only because mobile bosses like Hilla can simply move away (or you can summon again, but that's a tit-for-tat), you're standing at 15% base before Hypers only, and after Hypers it is 15%+20%. That leaves them about the same as standard classes with a solid 30%PDR. If you now compare them against classes with multiple sources of PDRIgnore (Demon Slayers, Marksmen etc.), then they do suck in comparision.
The point is: if you want to boss, being below average/normal is not enough. You want a summed PDRignore of at least 50% to boss somewhat decently -- throw yourself against Hilla, with a PDR of 50% and check the numbers, and you'll find that the difference is big between classes that are below average (~20-25%), normal (~30-35%), better (40-45%), and excellent (>=50%). Now look at how many classes are "excellent".
Let's answer OP's question: compare WA with other bow-type classes, so let's use Hilla (50%) as a normal Boss. No other potential lines.
Analysis
MMs have 25% (Marksmenship) + 50% (Weakness finding) + 20% (Snipe), and 1/3 of the time you have an additional 20% from Bullseye.
BMs have 25% (Marksmenship) + 50% (Armour Piercing), although the latter is luck-dependent and the numbers are a little tricky to crunch, suffice to say that when it sort of activates half the time.
WH have 30% (Wild Instinct) + 20% (Wild Arrow Blast, Hyper). I don't think I missed anything else...?
Mercedes used to ignore all def 40% of the time. Now they have 25% (Guardbreak) + 20% (Spikes Royale) + 20% (Spikes Royale Hyper) + 20% (Ishtar's Ring Hyper)
WA stands at 20% + 15% + (10%).
It's a little difficult to do the math for BMs, so I cheated and used JoeTang's numbers from his DPS table to find the PDR reduction factor, which stands at about 0.54-0.55 (let's use the smaller side, the smaller the number, the more effective it is). Calculating simlarly,
MMs have a PRF of 0.75*0.5*0.8 = 0.3 for 60 seconds, and 0.3*0.8 = 0.24 for 30 seconds with Bullseye on.
WHs have 0.7*0.8 = 0.56.
Mercs have 0.75*0.8*0.8*0.8 = 0.384
WAs have 0.8*0.85*0.9 = 0.612 with everything in.
Crunching it out with Hilla's 50%PDR, the above classes do the following percentage of their full DPS (formula being DPS = 1 - PDR*PRF):
MMs: 1 - 0.5*0.3 = 0.85 => 85% for 60 seconds, and 1 - 0.5*0.24 = 0.88 for 30 seconds (about the same generally but still significant in the long run).
BMs: 1 - 0.5*0.54 = 0.73 => 73%
WHs: 1 - 0.5*0.56 = 0.72 => 72%
Mercs: 1 - 0.5*0.384 = 0.808 => 80.8%
WA: 1 - 0.5*0.612 = 0.694 => 69.4%
In short, WAs are crap compared to other archers. Don't believe me? Go see JoeTang's thread here: http://www.southperry.net/showthread...=1#post1079761 Look at how much damage you lose by the time you hit 100%PDR. BMs lose about 2/3, MMs about 2/5, Mercs about 2/5, WHs about 3/5, and WA about 3/4.
Thanks for the feedback, i'm not good with the maths so i'm going to believe you anyway :)
Also can i ask did you include the 50% physical element resist in your calculations? Doesn't that boost their damage alot vs bosses such as magnus PB RA hilla etc compared to other archers (i'm assuming on WA has the physical element resist)
I'm probably going to main a WA anyway because i kinda like their skills .. haha
Edit: Also another question if no one minds, do WA's benefit from decent speed infusion gloves/green pots? I'm kinda assuming it boosts spiral vortex but not sky song - but don't you use only sky song on bosses? confused...
Thanks for the feedback, i'm not good with the maths so i'm going to believe you anyway :)
Also can i ask did you include the 50% physical element resist in your calculations? Doesn't that boost their damage alot vs bosses such as magnus PB RA hilla etc compared to other archers (i'm assuming on WA has the physical element resist)
I'm probably going to main a WA anyway because i kinda like their skills .. haha
Edit: Also another question if no one minds, do WA's benefit from decent speed infusion gloves/green pots? I'm kinda assuming it boosts spiral vortex but not sky song - but don't you use only sky song on bosses? confused...
Thanks
No I didn't factor in physical resistance. I can't generalise it for all bosses.
Sky Song doesn't benefit from DSI, not unless they break the skill delay formula (again) or alter the coding/tags somewhere.
If you have a boss with more than 1 body part, you should be using Spiral Vortex (I think). Spiral Vortex is quite a sick skill actually.
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