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  1. Default A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    It's terribly late but I want to get this out before I sleep.

    Theory: The current way EXP is calculated (Additive separate bonuses and 20% Party Play bonus compared to Multiplicative combined bonuses and 50% Party Play bonus) is a somewhat sophisticated solution to the "5 leech, 1 attacks" party line up that plagued LHC and HoH all this time.

    I'm thinking that because the Party Play bonus is 20%, the maximum bonus (6 person party) would be 100% which is just below the full exp penalty for having 5 party members. This means that if a party followed the "5 leech, 1 attacks" line up, the attacker would be hurting way more than if they were to just solo, even if they were getting HS. The only benefit is that the 5 leechers still get EXP for doing nothing but this solves the older problem where the attacker wouldn't have cared as the party play bonus was still way faster than soloing (without a party).

    The other part is that the current EXP modifiers (HS, 2x Events, EXP Buffs, Item EXP buffs, etc) are additive now so as not to disrupt the above solution. If Party Play EXP was multiplied by our current EXP modifiers, it would then suddenly create the incentive for a "5 leech, 1 attacks" party as it would be faster for the attacker to leech a party. Currently, EXP modifiers are solely modifying the base EXP of the mob with Party Play EXP as a separate bonus. By doing it this way, it will still impede solo attackers that leech their party members. I'm not certain as I haven't done the math quite yet... but this would also mean that having a 6 person party isn't imperative and that having fewer party members might actually be better assuming they are active. The system benefits stronger players that only require a few people to train on a map and it benefits weaker players that can't kill as fast but can remedy that by having a larger party.

    This is quite brilliant (if it was true) as the way to counteract these penalties is if everyone in the party is actively attacking which would then make it faster than solo play, thus promoting true party play.

    If someone can be so kind as to help me do the math and calculations to support this theory, I'd greatly appreciate it. Tell me what you think in the mean time. I could be wrong but it was a nice thought :v. Anyway, going to bed...

  2. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    All of this assumes whoever changed it knows what they're doing in the first place. Could have been an accident for all we know.

  3. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    The real math shows that partying is a total waste of time. The party bonus is only calculated on base, but the other standard bonuses are still multiplicative but separated. Here is a fast comparison.
    The party is 2 people of equal level killing a 1000 exp mob with HS and a 2x event

    1000 * 1.5 * 2 = 3000
    Party bonus in LHC would be 5% per party member plus 1 50% bonus for a total of 60% = 1800
    party split - attacker gets a total of 60% and the leecher gets a total of 40% (math pre-done)
    Attacker Display -
    1800 base
    1080 Party bonus

    NEW -
    The calculations of for HS and 2x are still the same, but the display separates the original base. it then calcs the party bonus ONLY on that base
    Attacker Display -
    600 base
    1200 bonus
    360 Party bonus

    The total of the base and bonus is still the same as the old base. But since the primary base is separated, a TON of exp is lost in the party bonus.

    Now, on to your theory. The 20% party play bonus is a total joke. It is not nearly enough to offset the loss from the primary party split. The true Exp split formula in GMS is 20% by damage and 80% by level. (This works out to be a total of 60% attacker/ 40% leecher if you have a party of 2 of equal level. This is the reason it is VERY erroneously called a 60/40 ratio, a pet peeve of mine). Just in the scenario of two people, you lose 40% of the mob's exp just for having a party member. the 20% bonus doesn't cover that. With the 20/80 split, even HS doesn't cover the loss. You need a 40% party play bonus to cover your losses as an attacker. And now that the party bonus does not apply to a good portion of the Exp, it's far, far worse.

    The problem with nexon's current solution is that the 20/80 split doesn't work with it. If they reverted back to Chaos ratio (60% damage, 40% by level) then it would work. The 20/80 split favors leeching. THe best way to kill that is to give us the old ratio. In fact, if they gave us the old ratio AND they instituted the exp penalty by level for all party play mobs (like they do now) then leeching would not be an issue at all. Yes, as you state, it is a sophisticated solution to leeching, but unfortunately it wipes out ANY desire for party play at all. With this in place, there is NO set of circumstances where partying actually gains you anything. (You would have to DRASTICALLY increase your party kill rate over your solo kill rate to make it pay off.)

    NOTE - The math used tends to only account for equal level parties. There is a big factor when considering higher level attackers and lower level leechers. But since party play mobs are no longer excluded from the Exp penalty, the attacker will never break even in that scenario. If he is all about pure leech (where you don;t care about the attacker's exp) then high-level leeching in Stronghold is still viable in the new system. It just doesn't pay off quite as well because of the party bonus change. I am adding functionality to my Exp calculator page to show the comparison of the new to the old. Once it's done, the numbers will be easy to see in any real world example.

  4. Euro Minicar Straight Male
    IGN: I
    Server: QUIT
    Level: &#8
    Job: Xenon
    Guild: Scandalous
    Alliance: DarkLily
    Farm: HarvestxMoon

    Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    you know what, I never really cared for party play, hs, kenshin abuse or any of this crap until leafre came out! so why bother now good ol solo grinding 36hrs to get 5 lvls woohoo

  5. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    Ok, just to throw some more real-life comparisons out there, here is some stats on the OLD method:

    In a 50% party play zone, an attacker with 2 leechers (same level) will get the same Exp per kill as he would Solo.

    In a 20% party play zone, an attacker can never get the same amount exp per kill as he can solo unless he SIGNIFICANTLY outlevels everyone else. In a party of 6 where the attacker is lvl 100, the leechers have to be an average level of 45 in order for the attacker to 'break even'. This scenario can only happen if there is no Exp Penalty on the attacker since he would have to be much higher level than the mobs in order for the low level leechers to passively gain Exp.

    More to come...

  6. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    I wish they'd attacked the real problem with party play at LHC, which is:

    A map that spawns 4-8 mobs at a time doesn't have space for 6 attackers if they can kill effectively. (below, I don't know, 10 hit kos?) and it's terrible for anyone whose mobbing skills are their strong point.

    For Viking Parties back in the day, there was enough spawning to split the map 6 ways and have a group of monsters for everybody. The DGP map supports 4 attackers (5 if one's weak). And so on.

  7. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    @Thorr; What about the experience you get from kills other party members make? Like, if you're on one side of the map and they kill something on the other.

  8. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    I haven't used that as part of my calcs, but it's easy to figure. HEre is the display for the leech exp in the scenario of my first post -

    OLD -
    Base - 1200
    Party - 720

    NEW -
    BAse - 400
    Bonus - 800
    Party - 240

    PS - I have my calculator page working both old and new methods for 1 out of six possible party members. I just have to duplicate the code for the other 5. Then it will be easy to see what kinds of loss we get now.

  9. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    I had heard a lot about how training solo is faster at the Twilight Perion maps, most of which I ignored because soloing is horrendously boring, but today I decided to time 10 minutes and see how much %EXP I got soloing compared to partying.

    In 10 minutes with a non-leeching HS mule, 1 leecher and 1 other active attacker, I got 1% in 10 minutes (1x EXP, no EXP buffs aside from HS), so roughly 6% an hour on 1x EXP, not awful but pretty slow. 10 minutes soloing however, with just the non-leeching HS mule, I got over double that... it was around 2.2% in 10 minutes without any EXP buffs apart from HS =/

    It's incredibly depressing to know that if I want to train with my friends it'll take me twice as long to level up than if I play alone. I wouldn't mind as much if it was say 2% compared to 1.5% in 10 minutes, but it is so much worse than I had thought previously.

    This is at level 209 btw, 11.9bil EXP to next level or so.

  10. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes


    With 20/80 split, and a 30% bonus for party (2 people = 10%, plus 20% for party play)

    You get 60% of your own kills, bumped to 78% from the party bonus.
    You get 40% of the other person's kills, bumped to 52%.

    Assuming having the other person around doesn't slow you down at all, in order to gain 100% exp, the other person needs to be killing at least (22/52) = 42% as fast. Or, approximately, for every 5 you kill, they kill 2.

    For the weaker player it's not really a problem - you're getting over 52% leeched for every 78% of your own, so you make way better than 100% exp.

    If they changed it back to a 60/40 split...
    You get 80% of your own kills, bumped to 104% by party bonus.
    You get 20% of the other person's kills, bumped to 26%.

    They can be entirely leeching and you still get good exp from having them in the party.

    So respectfully I have to disagree about which way encourages leeching - with the 20/80 split, you don't want leechers in your party, with the 60/40 split, you do.

    If they compromised they could make a situation where bigger imbalances in party strength were ok.
    Say you have a 40/60 split.
    You get 70% of your own kills, made 91% by party bonus.
    You get 30% of the other person's kills, bumped to 39%.
    To make up the 9% and be worthwhile, they have to be killing 9/39 = 23% as many mobs - so 1/4 as fast is good enough.

    In a 3 person party it gets more complicated of course. As before, assuming you're all the same level (or close enough - 205 to 210 is not a big deal). I guess the party bonus is 5%*3 + 20%*2 = 55%? I'm not clear how that part works.
    Start with a 20/80 split.
    You get 46.7% for your own kills, made 72.3% by the party bonus.
    You get 26.7% for other kills, made 41.4% by party bonus.
    The other party members, combined, need to be killing 67% as many mobs as you. If there's one leecher, that means the other attacker has to be doing 2/3 as much.

    Not sure how 2.2%/10min would drop to 1%/10 min except that they're interfering with the number of mobs you kill, so that you get either 40% and 72% of the exp for the total number of kills instead of adding them.

    @Thorr; want to check my assumptions? I've never worked out the party play bonuses (cause I don't count exp when partying)

  11. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    Your work is good, @Stereo;

    My only nitpick is that when I say 20/80 encourages leeching, it's because it makes people want to BE leechers. When you get above that, it makes people want to be attackers. 20/80 is the best scenario if you intend to do nothing but hang on a rope. I, personally, want a scenario that favors the attacker over the leecher.

    My calculator is almost ready for public consumption. I am having a stupid time with one of the total columns. The terms you use for %s are in terms of total exp% in relation to the mob's base, so it has me a bit in a twirl, but when I study it it seems to be correct from that perspective. I have other ratios as a selection to show what 'has been' before like in Chaos and what 'could be' if they change it.

    The current version can be found here -

    Put a 1 in the Damage% column to mark the attacker. Party Size can be ignored since it is automatically set when you fill out the form. The Ascension Exp ratio is our current 20/80.

  12. Default A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    You're telling me you did this random test with someone making as many kills as you, mr 10m asuras? Of course that party set up would net less %...

  13. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    Well, unless the attacker is willing to train at a deficit, 20/80 dissuade attackers from leeching for nothing.

    In any sort of split, leechers will always win because they get something for nothing. However, with a split where attackers break even or benefit from leechers, it promotes both the attacker and the leecher to continue with a "5 leech, 1 attacks" model.

  14. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    As I said I can understand getting less in a party but half the EXP in the same time? That's ridiculous.

  15. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    I just want to point out that you said you did this test with a leecher and an attacker AND a non-leeching hs mule in the same party? And again with a non-leeching hs mule and yourself? Why are you saying the exp gained is terrible in comparison when you have 3 other people (who i'm guessing can't compete with you very easily / don't compete intentionally) in your party?

    Do a test with a DB of your caliber with or without an HS mule that is moved to another party after buffing. I'll do some tests myself and post results.

  16. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 232
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    The problem is you had the leecher there.
    Try it with just the other attacker.

  17. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    I fixed the calculator page. I had a duplicate variable causing me a headache...

    Some more fun facts, assuming the attacker cares about his own experience gain:

    If your party does not have HS and is not in a party zone, there is a tipping point for when the attacker begins to break even. For 1 leecher, the leecher level must be no greater than 13% of the attacker's level. (So for a lvl 100 attacker, the leecher must be lvl 7 or under...) It goes up a bit with each added leecher. With 5 leechers, the total of leecher levels must be less than 40% of the attacker's level. (A level 100 attacker would need the average level of the leechers to be lvl 7 or so, just like above.)
    This scenario is really impossible since you would have to be fighting a mob that everyone could passively leech from, which in the case of the 100 attacker would be a mob level 12. Hardly useful. Basically this means that partying outside a party zone without HS is a massive exp penalty. Also of note, with no exp modifiers, this scenario is identical in both old Exp and Unleashed Exp.

    With HS alone (no party zone), the allowed leecher levels go up a good amount, but beyond 1 leecher, it gets ridiculous. A level 200 attacker can leech a lvl 175 leecher without losing Exp. Adding 1 more leecher drops their max level to be about 100 to make it non-penalizing for the attacker. That drops it into the impossible zone fairly quickly.

    With HS and 20% party zone, an attacker can leech one player of equal level without penalty. Adding multiple leechers quickly drops their level cap to make it penalty free for the attacker. It's more than enough to drop the leechers below a reasonable level where it would be possible for them to leech. in most cases.

    With HS and 50% party zone, there is never a time when the attacker loses exp (except for level penalty). In fact a lvl 50 attacker can leech 5 lvl 200 leechers and still get more exp per kill than solo. A practical example would be a lvl 165 attacker in Stronghold with 5 lvl 160 leechers (minimum to get leech and get in the area) can get 144% per kill. That's not much less than going solo with HS and the 5 leechers end up getting 57% each. (No HS drops it to 128% and 50%.) So, Stronghold is still a viable leeching area if you have the right circumstances. Even a lvl 200 leeching 5 lvl 163s in Drill Hall 1 would give leechers 55% per kill with HS, 49% without HS. Of course the 200 would get only get 55% himself because of the Level Exp Penalty.
    Here's the REAL killer though - if you use a 2x card, that 55% for the leechers only goes up to 75% (thanks to the non-stacking of Party Bonus). Even with 8x (Event, Card, Buff) the leechers never approach 200%. When you compare it to the OLD exp, it makes you cringe. Leechers in the same scenario get 149% from a 2x event and a whopping 585% from an 8x stack. So much lost exp. (500k+ for an Official Knight A vs 168k under the new system.)

  18. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    @Takebacker; @SaptaZapta; I'll try tomorrow, Patt (my training partner) is busy today and won't be on and I have no one else to test with. I'll do actual EXP instead of % this time since I just hit 210, so % is going to be less accurate. Not looking forward to telling my girlfriend she can't leech because it cuts our EXP by a ton lmao, that'll be fun...

  19. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 232
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    Make her train!

  20. Default Re: A Theory to the New EXP Changes

    She does when she's home, but she's at work until like 10:30pm my time xD

    Just timed 10 minutes solo + non-leeching HS at 210 (EXP reduction has lowered my base EXP to 230076):

    342006977/24142076232 @ start (1.42%)
    756258815/24142076232 @ end (3.13%)

    1.71% (414,251,838 EXP)/10 min @ 2x EXP + HS + 15% Mercedes buff + 10% Pendant (god damn it disconnections)



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