What is Online Gambling?

[xparasite9]

I think of NX and MapleStory as buying tokens at an Arcade.

Whether you waste $200 on tokens on the things that give more tickets or dumping all of it into Time Crisis/DDR, the moment you give money to the arcade in exchange for tokens I don't believe there's anything a court can do from that point. If you were putting real cash instead of tokens into a "Wheel of Fortune" game, then there would be a legal problem.

Also, you can't argue that you didn't get what you paid for because you paid for tokens. The amount of tickets or quantifiable enjoyment you gain or you think should be "promised" is irrelevant because those tickets have no cash value.

The reason you cannot win in court against Nexon is because you, yourself, the consumer, patron, paid for ingame "tokens" and nothing more. What you do with those worthless tokens is not really of much concern to the court.

Have you been paying attention? The requisite characteristic, a payment of Consideration, is present regardless of such abstractions, because play is initiated by the spending of points which are not given free of charge. Additionally, the reason why arcades are legal is they are games of skill, not purely games of luck. If a video arcade held any games of chance with a payout of a prize, and the establishment forbids entrants from bringing in foreign tokens not purchased from the establishment, that establishment is then an illegal house of gambling.

[Chew]

Duude seriously take it easy.
Everyone is just giving their opinions.
opinions=/= facts

I see Sapta's point and I do agree with her at the point that you are receiving what they promised you:
NX Credits.
I haven't see in any announcment Nexon sayin Buy 5000 Nx and you'll get your Fafnir weapon!
They always say "get the chance".
I still agree with you that Gachapon is seriously retarded for the prizes it has.

[SaptaZapta]

Have you been paying attention? The requisite characteristic, a payment of Consideration, is present regardless of such abstractions, because play is initiated by the spending of points which are not given free of charge. Additionally, the reason why arcades are legal is they are games of skill, not purely games of luck. If a video arcade held any games of chance with a payout of a prize, and the establishment forbids entrants from bringing in foreign tokens not purchased from the establishment, that establishment is then an illegal house of gambling.

And the other requisite characteristic, a payout, is not present.
"Being happy with your toon's damage numbers" is not a payout, or a measurable benefit.

But, as I said before, if you're so sure Nexon is in the wrong, take them to court. Win a lot of money. Force a change in the game.
None of us like the way gachapon, cubes, and the other items with a "chance" to improve your game status work. We just think Nexon has itself covered, legally. We'd be delighted to be proven wrong.

[KhainiWest]

Fine then.

Legally, virtual items don't fall under either legal definition of "value", due to a.) not being tangible objects and b.) not being able to be exchanged for currency under the ToS. That's also why they can't be taxed. The few instances of virtual item-related matters being taken to court were all settled before a ruling to the contrary could be made, from what I can find.

You can argue that it's morally wrong or whatever, but due to the way "value" is defined, it's not illegal until a court rules it is.

...Most internet sales aren't taxed. Although the fed's are working to change that. I already posted the answer and you're arguing exactly what sapta is. Which is just parroting.

You're citing two vastly different things.
One, an arcade gives out prizes as rewards for victors in Games of Skill. It's not gambling because it's not a game of chance, and the money paid in the skill contest is an entrance fee, not a wager.

Also, you're sorely mistaken regarding raffles. While in many states do not ban raffles outright, they are actually highly regulated.You're focusing too much on the "payout" aspect, and not enough on the wagers.
MapleStory itself is a free-to-play game. But contained inside of MapleStory are games that are closed-participation. They require a payment of real money to obtain a chance to win. That constitutes as "Consideration." Strike one. Gachapon and Miracle Cubes are literally pay-to-win elements situated in an enticing free-to-play game.

Gachapon and Miracle Cubes do not facilitate any user input, so the player cannot exercise any skill. Outcomes depend entirely on the fate of the random number generator. The game is purely Chance. Strike two.

Picking and choosing your arguments eh? Let me repeat, the transactions you're referring to are beyond trade laws. The only legal transaction that you make is the purchasing of the NX card. There is no gamble by doing so, you get what you pay for. How you spend those points are transactions are as relevant as what you pay mesos with. Unless the NX card you specifically purchase is specifically for a gambling method (Gachapon/Miracle cubes), you have no argument. Period.

None of those state laws have any relevance either, because the transaction that the real life world recognizes is the prepaid cash card. Seriously stop playing stupid.

[xparasite9]

None of those state laws have any relevance either, because the transaction that the real life world recognizes is the prepaid cash card. Seriously stop playing stupid.

Except they do, because it is determined solely on luck and not at all on the skill of the entrants, and playing the gamble can only be done by first making a purchase.
That's why you see so many sweepstakes contests with "no purchase necessary".

Also Using bold to accentuate your speech is really silly, especially when you overdo it.



There are no more than 18 people on this island

[KhainiWest]

Except they do, because it is determined solely on luck and not at all on the skill of the entrants, and playing the gamble can only be done by first making a purchase.
That's why you see so many sweepstakes contests with "no purchase necessary".

Also Using bold to accentuate your speech is really silly, especially when you overdo it.

Oh my god how are you not able to follow. Like seriously, here's the yellow brick road. You're so desperate to save face from your highly uneducated opinion you're making a bufoon out of yourself.

If you put the bold together you'll see why you were always wrong, and why you should stay out of things concerning law;

The transaction you make, that the law, government, state, what the f`uck ever acknowledges is for the NX card. That's paid for in cash by the way. It is no where in any shape or form, specifically used for gambling. You are given credit to make transactions within the game, period.

What you do with those points, is irrelevant to the government, it's your choice how you spend them, and no where on the card does it limit you to a specifically gambling activities. If it was specifically for gambling activities, such as, a frekin card that says "GACHAPON ONLY", then it would be considered illegal.

[xparasite9]

Oh my god how are you not able to follow. Like seriously, here's the yellow brick road. You're so desperate to save face from your highly uneducated opinion you're making a bufoon out of yourself.

If you put the bold together you'll see why you were always wrong, and why you should stay out of things concerning law;

The transaction you make, that the law, government, state, what the pineapple ever acknowledges is for the NX card. That's paid for in cash by the way. It is no where in any shape or form, specifically used for gambling. You are given credit to make transactions within the game, period.

What you do with those points, is irrelevant to the government, it's your choice how you spend them, and no where on the card does it limit you to a specifically gambling activities. If it was specifically for gambling activities, such as, a frekin card that says "GACHAPON ONLY", then it would be considered illegal.

Please refrain from intentionally bypassing the censors.

I guess you don't understand what constitutes as Consideration. This little abstraction doesn't protect Nexon, unfortunately. Indirect Consideration is still Consideration.

[KhainiWest]

Please refrain from intentionally bypassing the censors.

They don't care about the censorship. Though I find it cute I have someone who's account is how many days old, trying to lecture me on frekin rules? Seriously?

I guess you don't understand what constitutes as Consideration. This little abstraction doesn't protect Nexon, unfortunately.

Bold statement with no back up? I posted the goddamn federal law, explained how transactions of goods (Trade law) functions, and spoon fed you how it applies to that circumstance, and your retort is an ambiguous statement?

@MariaColette; Deal with your guildie please

[xparasite9]

They don't care about the censorship. Though I find it cute I have someone who's account is how many days old, trying to lecture me on frekin rules? Seriously?

My account is 1187 days old, thank you. Please refrain from harboring such uncivil elitism.

@MariaColette; Deal with your guildie please

hey this is between me and you. Don't bring in other members of our dead guild.

[KhainiWest]

My account is 1187 days old, thank you. Please refrain from harboring such uncivil elitism.

How about you answer the question. You trying to "advice" me on a rule you don't understand, (or how law works, evidently) leads to an elitist conversation. Blame yourself.

hey this is between me and you. Don't bring in other members of our dead guild.

Yes but she's a moderator and it be hella funny/ironic for her to close the thread. Again, stay on topic.

[xparasite9]

How about you answer the question. You trying to "advice" me on a rule you don't understand, (or how law works, evidently) leads to an elitist conversation. Blame yourself.



Yes but she's a moderator and it be hella funny/ironic for her to close the thread. Again, stay on topic.

You're the one who derailed it. You're also the only one who made ad hominem attacks.

This game has gambling features that require you to first make a purchase before you use them. That's Consideration. There's no free method of entry. That means it's not a sweepstakes.

And the other requisite characteristic, a payout, is not present.
"Being happy with your toon's damage numbers" is not a payout, or a measurable benefit.

But "being able to actually stand a chance at defeating end-game bosses" is.

[KhainiWest]

You're the one who derailed it.

This game has gambling features that require you to first make a purchase before you use them. That's Consideration. There's no free method of entry. That means it's not a sweepstakes.

No, I stayed on topic, you deflected at an attempt to distract from the point.

First off, gachapon does not require a purchase, no nx item requires it. Surveys and events completely destroys that point, which is the last bit of land you stand on. I didn't think I'd have to bring this up either, but oh well. In order to be in violation of online gambling (UIGEA), they have to knowingly accept payments that are used as wagers. The cash shop has thousands of items which the card gives you access too, there's is no legitimate way to prove that NX is bought specifically for gambling activities.

[SaptaZapta]

But "being able to actually stand a chance at defeating end-game bosses" is.

No, it's not.
The law doesn't care whether you use your NX to dress up pretty and afk in Henesys Ch1, or to cube your gear to max range and go bossing.
Neither one is a tangible benefit. Neither one is a payout.

[xparasite9]

No, I stayed on topic, you deflected at an attempt to distract from the point.

First off, gachapon does not require a purchase, no nx item requires it. Surveys and events completely destroys that point, which is the last bit of land you stand on.

This is still indirect Consideration. It doesn't matter who is paying whom. If a transfer of money is a prerequisite, it's still Consideration.

I didn't think I'd have to bring this up either, but oh well. In order to be in violation of online gambling (UIGEA), they have to knowingly accept payments that are used as wagers. The cash shop has thousands of items which the card gives you access too, there's is no legitimate way to prove that NX is bought specifically for gambling activities.

Okay, so there's a lack of federal protection. They still can't legally sell to Texans.

No, it's not.
The law doesn't care whether you use your NX to dress up pretty and afk in Henesys Ch1, or to cube your gear to max range and go bossing.
Neither one is a tangible benefit. Neither one is a payout.

I don't think the Texas law specified the benefit had to be tangible.

[KhainiWest]

This is still indirect Consideration. It doesn't matter who is paying whom. If a transfer of money is a prerequisite, it's still Consideration.

You can't transfer money for gachapon tickets, you transfer nx points which any trade law doesn't acknowledge as a form of currency. That's the big point you're missing, NX=/=American dollar by every legal standard imaginable.

Okay, so there's a lack of federal protection. They still can't legally sell to Texans.

Yes they can because as stated, the federal does not recognize NX as a form of currency, the state of texas, and every other state does not recognize nx as currency. Just because you bought the prepaid card with money does not mean it automatically transfers it's identity. It's like buying a gold coin. You can't use a gold coin in a retail store, but you can wager it, even though it does have a defined value, as the dollar represents gold reserves.

[SaptaZapta]

This is still indirect Consideration. It doesn't matter who is paying whom. If a transfer of money is a prerequisite, it's still Consideration.

Okay, so there's a lack of federal protection. They still can't legally sell to Texans.


I don't think the Texas law specified the benefit had to be tangible.

In which case the Texas law applies to, for example, a ticket to the Zoo. Can't sell them to minors because who knows, they might not enjoy their visit. They might not gain the benefit of seeing a real live lion roar.

I guess I'll say it again, then: go ahead and take them to court, if you're so confident.
Convincing us, or failing to, doesn't matter in the least. Convince a judge - or, first, convince an actual lawyer to take this on - and then you've accomplished something.

[xparasite9]

You can't transfer money for gachapon tickets, you transfer nx points which any trade law doesn't acknowledge as a form of currency. That's the big point you're missing, NX=/=American dollar by every legal standard imaginable.



Yes they can because as stated, the federal does not recognize NX as a form of currency, the state of texas, and every other state does not recognize nx as currency. Just because you bought the prepaid card with money does not mean it automatically transfers it's identity. It's like buying a gold coin. You can't use a gold coin in a retail store, but you can wager it, even though it does have a defined value, as the dollar represents gold reserves.

Let me rephrase a previous point I made, in the form of a question.
Why do you think so many sweepstakes have "no purchase necessary"?

[SaptaZapta]

Let me rephrase a previous point I made, in the form of a question.
Why do you think so many sweepstakes have "no purchase necessary"?

Because they have a payout.

[KhainiWest]

Let me rephrase a previous point I made, in the form of a question.
Why do you think so many sweepstakes have "no purchase necessary"?

Irrelevant because it's not.

A) It does not require a purchase in order to participate
B) The purchase is for the NX card, what you do with the NX is your own discretion and is not managed/overseen by any government agency as NX is not a currency regulated.

[xparasite9]

Irrelevant because it's not.

A) It does not require a purchase in order to participate
B) The purchase is for the NX card, what you do with the NX is your own discretion and is not managed/overseen by any government agency as NX is not a currency regulated.

Show me the free Gachapon.
Indirect Consideration is still Consideration.

Because they have a payout.

Texas law doesn't specify that it has to be tangible.