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  1. Trump minus th money
    IGN: xparasite9
    Server: Windia
    Level: 212
    Job: I/L Archmage
    Guild: KoopaForce
    Alliance: KoopaEmpire

    Default What is Online Gambling?


    Now, I'm not much of an expert on the legal aspect of gambling, but I'm fairly sure that minors cannot legally partake in it. I believe that there's some government regulation that may be involved also.
    I just wonder how exactly...clean of an operation Nexon is running here.
    I'm sure we can all agree here that a gamble is a wager of something with value on something with an uncertain outcome with the intent to make a gain. The key element is that there is a risk that there may be an outcome resulting in a net loss.
    Now, initially (and by that I mean several years ago), Nexon had a safe ground. Cash Shop purchases were always with a guaranteed item, and the only real-money game of chance was Gachapon, and back then, while "rewards" were often of questionable value, if any dispute were to arise Nexon could just facetiously sheepishly say "Golly, it's not our fault that the community prices some items at such low value" and that was the end of it. That was the very carefully organized scheme.
    But somewhere along the line, Nexon has gotten really cocky. And in their complacency, they made a few fatal faults. At some point, Premium Fusion Tickets were added to the Gachapon prize pool. Premium Fusion Tickets can be obtained from the Cash Shop for 500 NX. A Gachapon ticket costs 1000 NX. This is means that there is a chance of what is undeniably a net loss of 500 NX. Now we finally have evidence that Gachapon is a gamble.

    Let's look at another system of gambling in MapleStory: potential and cubes.
    Potentials are additional stat bonuses on equip items. There are potential tiers of Rare, Epic, Unique, and Legendary. There can be up to three lines of potential on an item. Item potentials can be randomly reset with the aid of a Cash Shop item, Miracle Cubes and several similar yet more expensive cubes. Miracle Cubes reset every potential line. The potential tier of the item cannot be reduced, and neither can the number of lines of potential, but the overall potential stats can be and often are changed undesirably. Additional items known as Potential Locks can be purchased from the Cash Shop to prevent a chosen line of potential from being changed in the use of a Miracle Cube. Miracle Cubes have been designed with the intent to cause harm to the value of items as a possible outcome. This is actually worse than conventional gambling, because at least a loss in conventional gambling is a loss of the money spent. A loss in cubing results in a loss of the money spent, and often a catastrophic loss in the value of the equip item.



    (To be continued.)
     

  2. Monster Truck Tire Straight Male
    IGN: Triggernometry
    Server: Supports
    Job: TeamSecret
    Guild: BigDaddy<3

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    This is why I like RIFT F2P model.
     

  3. AFK at Ch 18 Leafre Straight Male
    Nion's Avatar [Jr. Event Coordinator]

    IGN: 9498
    Server: Scania
    Level: 210
    Job: Night Lord
    Guild: Symbolism
    Alliance: Lore
    Farm: Symbolism
    California

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    That's why there are people who thought of Maple as "pay to play" because of the gap between the payers and the f2p people.
     

  4. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    You have to remember that nothing in the game has a dollar value.
    Nexon strictly disallows trading game items for money or even NX.
    So if you cube your item and it gets weaker, that is not a loss of real world money.
    Similarly, whatever you get out of gachapon is equally worthless, whether it is a potion or the latest overpowered weapon.

    It is like, say, buying a movie ticket. It lets you into the theatre and promises the movie will be shown. It doesn't give you money, or an object you can later sell off. So you can't say that if you didn't like the movie you "lost money" but if you liked it you "won". I mean, you can say that, but in cold hard cash terms, there is no difference between the situations. There is no "gambling".

    Similarly, you buy the NX, and there is no gamble there. $10 for 10,000 NX. That is the transaction.
    Whether that NX turns out to give you enjoyment or frustration doesn't change the fact that you already paid your $10 and you are not expecting to get any money back.
     

  5. Lead Ball
    IGN: Killmeplsok
    Server: Cassiopeia
    Level: 181
    Job: Captain
    Guild: LoveOfCari
    Alliance: LoveOfCari
    malaysia

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    Technically you're using your 1200 cash to buy a cube, not a chance to make your equipment better whatsoever, although it's pretty obvious that that's the only thing the thing you buy does.
     

  6. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    That's why you buy NX not the item with your money, you bough their currency. That's the loop hole. It would only matter if you directly put 1 dollar into their machine. Like at a casino pretty much.
     

  7. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    I don't think that's it. I am pretty sure the reason it evades the gambling ordinance is that you always get SOMETHING. The value of the digital item is always going to vary, but you always get something. If they had a chance of giving you nothing whatsoever, then it would be canned.
     

  8. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/31/5362

    In order for anything to be a gamble, you have to make a bet, a wager.

    This does not include;
    viii) participation in any game or contest in which participants do not stake or risk anything of value other than (I) personal efforts of the participants in playing the game or contest or obtaining access to the Internet; or
    (II) points or credits that the sponsor of the game or contest provides to participants free of charge and that can be used or redeemed only for participation in games or contests offered by the sponsor;

    Gachapon and miracle cubes cannot be obtained directly through payment. You pay for the NX, that's the intention of the NX gift card. I imagine because of that, the law recognizes the NX points then as "sponsored". Unless the prepaid cards are specifically for those functions, such as gachapon, cubing, surprise boxes, it's considered a "sponsored event". Again, that's my take on it.
     

  9. Trump minus th money
    IGN: xparasite9
    Server: Windia
    Level: 212
    Job: I/L Archmage
    Guild: KoopaForce
    Alliance: KoopaEmpire

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    As I previously stated, this argument had credence up until the point that items with undeniable, set-in-stone cash value (like the Premium Fusion Tickets) were added to the prize pool.

    I am pretty sure there are regulations against the sale of goods that cause undesired damages under "normal use" conditions. As there is only one way to use cubes, there are no "abnormal operation conditions", and, furthermore all risks of detriment are artificially, needlessly, and intentionally crafted in order to massively inflate demand. Perhaps it may be better if potential locks can be obtained for a reasonable amount of mesos.

    It may not be gambling-gambling, as it doesn't result in any tangible payouts, but it does require the input of real money (poker chips may not be real money, but like NX cash, they are purchased with real money, so there's no safeguard in that abstraction). There's no federal law against adults engaging in simulated gambling. In some jurisdictions it is illegal for minors to engage in simulated gambling. Does this mean that, for example, players in Florida will need to pass an age verification to purchase and use Miracle Cubes?
    Perhaps the ESRB needs to re-evaluate the game. I know there's enough to get MapleStory to a Teen rating, but, since Gachapon tickets and Miracle Cubes can only be obtained with Nexon Cash, which can only be obtained through real-money transactions (and the "worthless" point abstraction in this case is not as iron-clad as Nexon may think), I wonder if the ESRB might have to push the rating all the way to AO.

    Looks like Nexon is indeed breaking the law. They'll be needing to make Miracle Cubes and Gachapon a Maple-Points-only thing.
    Last edited by xparasite9; 2013-06-25 at 07:39 PM.
     

  10. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    No.
    The Premium Fusion Ticket is worth 500 NX. That is not a cash value. You cannot buy it for 50 cents.
    You can get 500 NX by paying 50 cents, or by doing an online survey, or by doing an in-game quest, or just because Nexon decided to credit it to your account because they like you (or because they messed up bad).

    Again, the only part where you give Nexon money is where you buy the NX. What you do with the NX afterwards is immaterial.
     

  11. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    The legal transaction is between you and an NX card provider. Any ingame transactions are not applicable to any trade law. So the only way for it to be illegal in this context is if the card is specifically for a gambling feature. Aka this nx card is only applicable for gacha tickets.
     

  12. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    The difference is simple:
    Gambling is when you put money in for a chance of getting more money out. Putting money in for a chance of winning prizes isn't illegal, which is why things like arcades and raffles aren't illegal in gambling-regulated areas.
     

  13. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    That's not the answer of why it's not considered illegal. All of your examples are clarified in that legal link I posted.
     

  14. Trump minus th money
    IGN: xparasite9
    Server: Windia
    Level: 212
    Job: I/L Archmage
    Guild: KoopaForce
    Alliance: KoopaEmpire

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    Hypothetical:
    I buy a Gachapon ticket for 1000 NX. I use it and receive a Premium Fusion Ticket that can be obtained with much more ease and for a much lower price. So low in fact, that I could have bought two of them. In fact, if I actually wanted one, I would have just directly purchased one instead of using Gachapon. Therefore, if I am purchasing a Gachapon ticket, I do not desire a Premium Fusion ticket. This means that obtaining a Premium Fusion ticket is actually a complete, full loss, with a 50% consolation.

    I can get 500 NX by paying 50 cents...or, rather, by paying the preset amount, meaning I'd often be buying more than I actually wanted to (and don't think this isn't intentionally designed!). Or yeah, you can do an online survey, doing probably three dollars worth of labor for a payment of forty cents. I'd love to see what in-game quests there are that award players with NX cash. Same for these mythical cases of altruistic gift credits. And in the case of "they messed up bad", that's usually because, while they do have a limitation of liability, that still requires them to refund "THE LESSER OF TWENTY U.S. DOLLARS OR THE TOTAL CUMULATIVE AMOUNT PAID [...] TO OBTAIN CASH ITEMS".
     

  15. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    Fine then.
    Legally, virtual items don't fall under either legal definition of "value", due to a.) not being tangible objects and b.) not being able to be exchanged for currency under the ToS. That's also why they can't be taxed. The few instances of virtual item-related matters being taken to court were all settled before a ruling to the contrary could be made, from what I can find.

    You can argue that it's morally wrong or whatever, but due to the way "value" is defined, it's not illegal until a court rules it is.
     

  16. Trump minus th money
    IGN: xparasite9
    Server: Windia
    Level: 212
    Job: I/L Archmage
    Guild: KoopaForce
    Alliance: KoopaEmpire

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    You're citing two vastly different things.
    One, an arcade gives out prizes as rewards for victors in Games of Skill. It's not gambling because it's not a game of chance, and the money paid in the skill contest is an entrance fee, not a wager.

    Also, you're sorely mistaken regarding raffles. While in many states do not ban raffles outright, they are actually highly regulated.

    You're focusing too much on the "payout" aspect, and not enough on the wagers.
    MapleStory itself is a free-to-play game. But contained inside of MapleStory are games that are closed-participation. They require a payment of real money to obtain a chance to win. That constitutes as "Consideration." Strike one. Gachapon and Miracle Cubes are literally pay-to-win elements situated in an enticing free-to-play game.

    Gachapon and Miracle Cubes do not facilitate any user input, so the player cannot exercise any skill. Outcomes depend entirely on the fate of the random number generator. The game is purely Chance. Strike two.
     

  17. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    Again. You are not "purchasing" a gachapon ticket. You are not paying real-world money for it.
    I have old mule accounts with thousands of Maple Points on them, which I never paid a cent for. I can buy Gachapon tickets with those Maple Points, since they are a form of NX.

    There were several events that gave NX. Off the top of my head:
    - Thanksgiving event where you got an "allowance" from "Mom & Dad" NPCs every day. At the end of the event, the allowance coupons in your Etc inventory were replaced by NX.
    - Attendance event where you had to be on for an hour every day for a week.
    - "Big Wig" event where players could send each other boxes that gave NX.
    - "cash back" events where you get some NX back for using it in a given time period.

    As for "messed up bad", sometimes they gave out "compensation" for downtime or rollback in the form of NX, sometimes they didn't. Giving NX is not a "refund" and the NX is not worth $20 or any other amount, since you can't take it out of the game.
     

  18. Trump minus th money
    IGN: xparasite9
    Server: Windia
    Level: 212
    Job: I/L Archmage
    Guild: KoopaForce
    Alliance: KoopaEmpire

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    Congratulations, you have holdovers from previous events. But that isn't sufficient to be grandfathered into the "no purchase necessary" stipulation, as new accounts have no means to play Gachapon without first paying a Consideration.


    Here's an interesting thing I found in the Georgia gambling code:
    Sells chances on the margin of victory? The performance of any participant in any game? Well now, in MapleStory, performance is largely dominated by stats, which are in turn largely dominated by potentials, and heavily governed by Miracle Cubes. Hm... Looks like Nexon will have to deny service to the entire state of Georgia.

    AWHOOPS
    Better rule out Texas too!
    http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.u.../htm/PE.47.htm
    Miracle Cubes don't award right of replay. With Miracle Cubes, a win is a augmentation of stats on an item. There's our benefit.
    Now we have satisfied the Prize condition.
    Strike three, Nexon. You're out!
     

  19. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    *shrug*
    Go ahead and take them to court, then.
     

  20. Default Re: What is Online Gambling?


    I think of NX and MapleStory as buying tokens at an Arcade.

    Whether you waste $200 on tokens on the things that give more tickets or dumping all of it into Time Crisis/DDR, the moment you give money to the arcade in exchange for tokens I don't believe there's anything a court can do from that point. If you were putting real cash instead of tokens into a "Wheel of Fortune" game, then there would be a legal problem.

    Also, you can't argue that you didn't get what you paid for because you paid for tokens. The amount of tickets or quantifiable enjoyment you gain or you think should be "promised" is irrelevant because those tickets have no cash value.

    The reason you cannot win in court against Nexon is because you, yourself, the consumer, patron, paid for ingame "tokens" and nothing more. What you do with those worthless tokens is not really of much concern to the court.
     

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