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  1. Neon Atom Gay Male
    IGN: Sylvananna
    Server: El Nido
    Level: 210
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: LegacyReborn
    Alliance: Muse
    Farm: Farm
    canada

    Default HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Hey all,

    First off, sorry if this has been done before, I couldn't find anything on it.

    I'm trying to figure out what high end training map would be the best to use post 200. I know a majority of players use HoH, but it seems to me that Knight's Chamber 5 is theoretically better, and by a large amount. I'm not sure if this is really a question or not, but more so a collection of knowledge that I'm not entirely sure about just yet.

    Maybe we can figure out what is statistically the best map post 200 under all conditions.

    Hall of Honor:
    http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=271030600

    10 spawn points, 10 on the map when in the map alone.

    Advanced Knight A: 104,529 (x2) = 209,058
    Advanced Knight B: 108,043 (x2) = 216,086
    Advanced Knight C: 109,786 (x2) = 219,572
    Advanced Knight D: 117,271 (x2) = 234,542
    Advanced Knight E: 124,671 (x2) = 249,342

    Total experience on the map at a time (solo): 1,128,600

    Knight's Chamber 5:
    http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=271030540

    17 spawn points, 12 on the map when in the map alone.

    Advanced Knight E: 124,671 (x12) = 1,496,052


    Difference between the two maps 1,496,052 - 1,128,600 = 367,452 more experience per tick.

    This doesn't take into consideration the additional exp from party play, exp cards, buffs etc. which would only increase the gap between the two maps. Additionally, if we receive exp penalties for being x number of levels above a monster, I guess KC5 would win again, slightly for some levels since Advance Knight 5 is the highest level out of all the mobs in these areas.

    I've never trained at either of these places for very long, so I'm not exactly sure how their mechanics work, but do more mobs summon based on the amount of players in the map (Similar to LHC)?

    Additionally, I'm unsure on how a Kanna's Kishin would effect the maps, would it work to the same degree that it does at LHC? I'm not sure if this would even matter since it seems as if KC5 has both more spawn points and spawn in general than HoH. Maybe @Stereo or @Thorr could shed some light on this issue? I know they've done work on this subject before.

    Will update this part when we learn more on gMS's Twilight Perion
    Spoiler

  2. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Kishin Shoukan would have no real effect in HoH. It maximizes KC5 spawn, though.

    The preference is really about map layout for most. HOH is 3 plain flat plats. KC5 has the top two split. If you are one who can hit 2 plats (like a BaM with BKB) then you are likely to get more targets more frequently in HoH which makes up for the difference. The upper split platforms in KC5 mean you have to move around more and hit smaller groups (for the most part, unless you are using an Evan who can hit across the gap with ease). HoH would likely win out in general, simply because you are mobbing larger stacks most of the time.

    If you are in a good party and everyone kills at roughly the same rate, I would think that KC5 would be the winner because the issue of being spread out is minimized.

  3. God of Terrorism Straight Male
    IGN: Bomber123
    Server: StranInSCA
    Level: 202
    Job: Terrorist
    Guild: Noctivagant
    Alliance: I dont remember
    Farm: ExpiredMobs
    usa

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    There are 26 mobs in the mixed golem map. Assuming you can kill them all, it is 6,646,640 exp.

  4. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    What Thorr said.
    HoH's layout is better.

    The mobs at HoH only spawn on two platforms, so it's very easy to cycle. The bottom and the ladders leading from it to the first platform are safe, for leeches and mules. Kanna can stand on the bottom to recast Kishin conveniently and safely. HoH's only real drawback is the mix of enemies, some of which die before the others or respond differently to certain skills.
    The safe spots in KC5 require more precision in positioning (I'm not even sure they're safe under all conditions). The split platforms make cycling difficult for classes that can't easily leap the gap, or can get knocked back and down, and also force you to fight smaller groupings of monsters.
    I don't know the Perion maps yet.

    I think that this is the sort of thing you just need to try for yourself. We have many, many hours to grind. Might as well do a couple of hours in each map, and see which one gives you the best exp with the least headache.

  5. Donator Straight Male
    IGN: ShinkuDragon HoukaPhoenix BoshokuRaven
    Server: Scania
    Level: 152
    Job: Batman
    Guild: IDissOrtis
    panama

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    i'd say HoH too, i tried finding a safe spot on KC5 ages ago, i just couldn't, their soul wave has enough vertical range up and down to hit you anywhere, and even with impale's long reach, i was hitting less mobs than in HoH.

    maybe if i had perfect connection to OHKO everything with dark synthesis every 8 seconds, then maybe KC5 would be better.

  6. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    I have always managed to get a safe spot in KC5. Lower right ladder. There is a sweet spot about 1 block from the top of it. I did a lot of solo training there with my Evan and 2-3 mules hanging there.

  7. Proton Straight Male
    IGN: NPhantomN
    Server: Bera
    Level: 200
    Job: Phantom
    Guild: Prospect
    Alliance: ISoSage
    Farm: netanel
    israel

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    from the math i done,i understood that you get 750k exp per golem at future perion using only full party and HS.
    so i guess its better.

  8. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    I am curious on the source of the math since I don'y think we have the Exp value of the golems in Party Play.

    Bomber's number above would put the Exp at 255k each. I just don't think we can depend on that value being accurate without seeing the extraction.

    You also have to figure in the HP value of the golems. It may not be very quick to kill them. I would think they are in the 70m HP range.

  9. God of Terrorism Straight Male
    IGN: Bomber123
    Server: StranInSCA
    Level: 202
    Job: Terrorist
    Guild: Noctivagant
    Alliance: I dont remember
    Farm: ExpiredMobs
    usa

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    I could give you all the values, but I'm not at my computer.
    iirc, mixed are 89m hp.

  10. Proton Straight Male
    IGN: NPhantomN
    Server: Bera
    Level: 200
    Job: Phantom
    Guild: Prospect
    Alliance: ISoSage
    Farm: netanel
    israel

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    3rd grade math: 250k*2(the 100% party play from full pt)*1.5(HS)=750k
    i rounded it to 250k from 255K for easier counting and because im lazy
    the HP can matter,but if the number of mobs bomber mentioned (26) any OP class that mobs (kaiser) would get around without a problem.

  11. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Unfortunately your 3rd grade math is very wrong. you aren't accounting for the party split when you have a full party.

    I'll skip the whole formula, but if 1 golem is 255000 Exp, then a full party of lvl 200 characters with 1HS and only 1 person killing gets the following -
    Attacker - 127500 base with 165750 party bonus, total = 293,250
    Leechers (5) - 51000 base with 66300 party bonus, total = 117,300

    The 20% party play really sucks.

    The same party in SH killing a Adv Knight E -
    Attacker - 62336 base with 174541 party bonus, total = 236,877
    leechers - 24934 base with 69815 bonus, total = 94,749

    Given these totals, it's likely that KC5 would beat Golems because of kill rate. (Knight E has 30M HP vs the 89M of the golem)

    20% party play is not enough to overcome the loss of our existing Exp Ratio (20% damage, 80% by level). YOu are actually better off do them Solo with HS. At least then you would get 382k per golem.

  12. Proton Straight Male
    IGN: NPhantomN
    Server: Bera
    Level: 200
    Job: Phantom
    Guild: Prospect
    Alliance: ISoSage
    Farm: netanel
    israel

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)



    so its isnt much better,and the math isnt for 3rd graders,we should at least count the HP:EXP ratio

  13. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    I added more numbers for demonstration... It's bleak with this silly Exp ratio. The attacker gets hosed. If everyone is attacking, it's even worse. If everyone damages evenly, each player only gets about 150k exp. At least with older Exp Ratios (like Chaos where it was 60% damage and 40% by level)a solo attacker would benefit from full party of mules.

    The 20% party play is what kills it, though. It doesn't cover the losses from the split. The bonus needs to be about 35-40% to make it even with Solo killing. You have to hope that your kill rate makes it worthwhile.

    EDIT - The BEST scenario for Exp per mob at golems is 1 attacker and 1 HS mule. (unless the attacker is a bishop and doesn't need one.) The attacker gets nearly the same total (290k) and the HS mule gets about 199k.

  14. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Haha I got mentioned earlier in the thread so I'm here to mention that I solo train Future Henesys with the HS mule in a different map because the 2-player party bonus is smaller than the amount it splits off (iirc also makes the Mercedes bonus smaller). Most of my buffs are the same 3 minutes as HS so I just exit the map, hit my macro, hit the HS macro (with Adv. Bless, and sometimes MW10 depending on character), then go back in.

    I haven't yet trained at HoH because for a while, the Knights you got in those first couple pure spawn maps were a lot easier to lure+kb, and didn't attack back.

    Maybe I need to start leeching the Bishop again though, what's the min level to get into Twilight Perion?

  15. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Yeah that's how I train most maps. If I do a LHC/SH party zone, I bring 2 mules so that it works out to no loss. (usually I am leeching one my mules in this scenario) Otherwise, I put my HS mule in the map next door and train solo. Conveniently, my bishop is also lvl 200 and has MW30, so he will be effective for Golem training if I choose to go there.

    Of course, the other possible monkey in the wrench will be if we get the stupid Exp bonus changes from KMS. That will kill everything.

  16. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 225
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Dominion

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    I try to use a priest or bishop too low-level to leech. If that's not possible, I use an expedition and swap the hs'er into my party and back out as needed. The next-door thing is a last resort.

  17. God of Terrorism Straight Male
    IGN: Bomber123
    Server: StranInSCA
    Level: 202
    Job: Terrorist
    Guild: Noctivagant
    Alliance: I dont remember
    Farm: ExpiredMobs
    usa

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Here are exact values, courtesy of @iAmFear;


    Ancient Golem
    HP: 85,000,000
    EXP: 245,543
    Physical Damage: 18,480
    Magical Damage: 18,770
    PDR: 45%
    MDR: 45%
    Accuracy: 790
    Avoid: 250
    Holy Weak, Dark Resist

    Ancient Dark Golem
    HP: 87,000,000
    EXP: 250,600
    Physical Damage: 18,648
    Magical Damage: 19,157
    PDR: 50%
    MDR: 50%
    Accuracy: 790
    Avoid: 250
    Holy Weak, Dark Resist

    Ancient Mixed Golem
    HP: 89,000,000
    EXP: 255,640
    Physical Damage: 18,816
    Magical Damage: 19,542
    PDR: 50%
    MDR: 50%
    Accuracy: 790
    Avoid: 250
    Holy Weak, Dark Resist

  18. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Mmm mmm mmm...

    Holy Weak sounds delicious for Paladins and Bishops.

    Makes me miss the fire weakness Bear Wolves had previously.

  19. God of Terrorism Straight Male
    IGN: Bomber123
    Server: StranInSCA
    Level: 202
    Job: Terrorist
    Guild: Noctivagant
    Alliance: I dont remember
    Farm: ExpiredMobs
    usa

    Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Except is a boss and doesnt work for us.

  20. Default Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)


    Don't double charge.

    Also, when RED comes, our element neutral skill is separate sooooooo it's still juicy.

  21.  

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