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  1. Default Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Hey all,

    I really want to make a dagger class and thus it comes down to either making a Dual Blade or a Shadower.

    I've read a lot of information on multiple different sites and sources and I haven't really really gotten a solid answer yet.

    I've also checked JoeTang's damage chart and that is incredibly helpful but I've heard that its very theoretical and does not actually represent actual damage output. As of such, I want to know what you all think about the DPM of Dual Blades vs Shadowers.

    Furthermore, it would be excellent if someone could post a quick tutorial on how to calculate DPM. I checked out the max/min damage tutorial in this thread but to calculate actual DPM is new to me.

    Thanks all for the feedback!

  2. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Very brief overview. "-->" means "into" i.e. plug the thing (usually multiply) before the arrow into the next thing on the right. Watch the [ ] brackets.

    Your range --> [critical rate --> average critical damage] --> Skill damage and hits --> [Damage modifiers (e.g. boss damage, %DMG) + Hypers] --> [Monster PDR --> All IgnorePDR sources] --> [Skill Delays --> Skill chaining] --> No. of mobs.

    Explanations are below.

    Wall of Text


    That's generally about it, as briefly as possible while providing explanation and clarity. There might be some slight bits here and there that are less important which I didn't mention, but this is the general overview. Note these are theoretical, and are affected by damage cap and stuff so sometimes it's better to consider hits/s if you always cap. Nothing here considers practicality of using skills, how nice it is to play a class blah blah blah. We will always tell people this: don't run to play a class just because of the numbers.

    Hadriel
    Last edited by hadriel; 2013-06-18 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Fixed some stuff

  3. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Wow this is absolutely amazing. Thanks for such a great resource to draw off of!

    I just read the first few paragraphs and it seems pretty good but I'm sure I'll have questions later on.

    But regardless, thanks SO much!

  4. Helium Atom Straight Male
    IGN: SeeMeTwice
    Server: Scania
    Job: Band of Thieves
    Guild: Perpetual ~ Nocti
    Farm: Wisteria ~ Mississippi
    Mississippi

    Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    If you're playing a class for damage, play a Kaiser or something top tier.
    If you're playing a *dagger* class for damage, you will find that both are pretty equal.

    Shadowers have higher theoretical damage output than DBs with and without unlimited FC.
    However, if you are funding well, DB passes shad with merely 100% boss and goes much above with 200%+. Even less needed to be said is that shads will cap with nate before DBs with Phantom Blow if you're super funding.

    Shadowers have better survivability by far after unlimited.

    The thing that I want to stress most is not to play a class for damage, though. Pick both up and get both to a decent level or just watch videos to see which you like best and choose that one.
    Playing a class just for damage will not make it fun. And that's what a game is for. Fun.
    Good luck choosing; I hope you make the right selection.

  5. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    I find my DB so boring now with hypers that I am seriously thinking about switching main. I can't stand the OP Asura for some reason.

  6. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Shadower's Shadow Veil sucks. Should've given us something like a 10 hit Assassinate with a really cool animation instead.

  7. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Great response!! Thanks so much for your very helpful thoughts!

    The thing is, after some time, dont most classes reach damage cap? And at that point wouldn't it just come down to who has faster attack?


  8. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    More content to your response please! :)

  9. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    ^ my point exactly.

  10. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    To clarify, in that sentence, is the shad super funding or is the DB super funding?

  11. Helium Atom Straight Male
    IGN: SeeMeTwice
    Server: Scania
    Job: Band of Thieves
    Guild: Perpetual ~ Nocti
    Farm: Wisteria ~ Mississippi
    Mississippi

    Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Both. If you super fund a shad, it will be limited by cap while a DB will continue to be able to raise damage.

    Well with the 50m cap, only classes with very high % skills can hit cap.

    Shadowers have one of the highest % 1v1 skills in the game. The downside is that it's marginally slower than most other 1v1 skills and has 8(?) hits, 4 being 70% damage.
    The pure % makes up for this until cap is reached. At varying times after that (depending on how hard the other 1v1 skill hits), other classes that are below in theoretical damage pass up shadowers.

    DBs are probably impossible to hit cap with PB (asura can cap) in KMS even with max possible funding. And KMS has flames, better EEs, etc. So cap isn't the deciding factor on everything, but you get the point.

  12. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    You want to see practical comparisons?

    Strip down both characters and go to monster park or dojo and see what the clearing times are for each.

  13. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Phantom Blow + Asura > everything Shad has except Assassinate.
    Assassinate has a damage cap problem if you want to fund Shad a lot (although this issue will be gone soon).
    DB can scout for when damage reflect ends using Chains of Hell. Chains of Hell doesn't trigger damage reflect. I believe Final Cut doesn't trigger damage reflect either, but I don't have a DB so not sure.
    Asura has a chance of lasting more than 10 seconds due to lag. I have no idea how often this happens since I don't have a DB. Lots of free damage whenever it happens.
    DB use 2 weapons. So they achieve higher ranges more easily.
    Asura provides a lot of burst damage. Lots of damage concentrated into its 10s duration. Shadowers have burst damage too but not as much.

    In JoeTang's tables Assassinate only barely beats Phantom Blow + Asura at 0% boss. It loses at 100% and 200% boss. I'm assuming it's easy to get enough buff duration to have Final Cut active all the time though.


    Shad has some advantages of course (they get 9999 def + 9999 avoid easily), but for damage I think DB is a lot better both in theory and in practice. Most of this is due to Asura. I think the only bad thing about Asura is getting statused while it's active.

    To be honest I don't know that much about Shadowers beyond that, other than coins filling up the screen at LHC and lagging everyone when they have pickpocket active.
    Last edited by MountLag; 2013-06-17 at 09:10 PM. Reason: lots of typos lol

  14. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Again, thanks for the great responses. I'm kind of a damage whore and damage is kind of a big deal to me. I mean this in that I want the highest damaging class for the specific role I want to play (in this case daggers).

    So the real calculation would be PB vs Assassinate/Shad combos? Or do DBs use something other than PB as their main attack?

    And one last thing, what did you mean by "DB will continue to be able to raise damage"?

  15. Helium Atom Straight Male
    IGN: SeeMeTwice
    Server: Scania
    Job: Band of Thieves
    Guild: Perpetual ~ Nocti
    Farm: Wisteria ~ Mississippi
    Mississippi

    Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Okay.
    Same amount of funding goes into both characters.
    Shad hits 50m with nate.
    DB hits 20m with PB.

    DB can continue to raise its damage above 20m. Shad is stuck at 50m.
    Say 20m with PB is the same output as 50m with nate. That means DB can beat shadower with any new funds after that and shad is completely stuck.

    Simple Answer:
    DB is better unless you do not fund the character at all.
    All that matters is after 100% boss, a DB outdamages a shad whether either are hitting cap or not.

  16. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    Thanks for the great feedback. I really mean it. Sorry if I started to annoy you with the constant questions. I came back recently after a looooong break and I hardly know anything.

    Appreciate it all the knowledge :)

  17. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    And this is different from equalizing stats on the upper funding range how?

    Shads cap at 70m by the way. Epic adv (+5m), nate hyper (bring to 60m), flip of coin (+5m).

  18. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    what do DBs cap at?

  19. Default Re: Discussion/How To: Dual Blade vs Shadower


    55 with epic adv.

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