The new defense ignore formula in Unlimited takes every single source of ignore separately, and uses them multiplicatively. This can be viewed as each source reducing the enemy's currently remaining defense by that much.
For example, Chaos Pink Bean has 180% Defense.
If you have 30% Defense Ignore, you ignore 30% of 180%, which leads to 126%.
If you have another 15% Defense Ignore, you ignore 15% of 126%, which leads to 107.1%.
This works regardless of order.
If you have 15% Defense Ignore, you ignore 15% of 180%, which leads to 153%.
If you have another 30% Defense Ignore, you ignore 30% of 153%, which leads to 107.1%.
What this means is that one large source of defense ignore is better than two smaller sources that have the same sum.
If you have 15% Defense Ignore, you ignore 15% of 180%, which leads to 153%.
If you have another 15% Defense Ignore, you ignore 15% of 153%, which leads to 130.05%.
Despite having a total of 30% Defense Ignore from two different sources, your total defense ignored is less than one source of 30% Defense Ignore, which leads to 126%.
Here are several samples:
Spoiler
0.5% Ambition, 6% Deck, Luminous Link 1
0.5% Ambition, 6% Deck, Luminous Link 1
0.5% Ambition, 6% Deck, 15% Weapon
3% Ambition, 6% Deck, 15% Weapon
3% Ambition, 6% Deck
3% Ambition, 6% Deck
3% Ambition, 6% Deck, 15% Weapon
3% Ambition, 6% Deck
There appears to be some small discrepancies over how this tooltip is calculated. It appears to calculate 15% Ignore from Weapons to 14% gain for some reason when you have no ignore. Any combination of Ambition and Deck ignore does not account for the discrepancy, and make any other case work. Every other piece of equipment shows the correct number when naked. i.e. 150 gear's +10% and +5% gains show correctly to be that.
As an example, the 30%, 15%, 15% Shining Rod gives
1 - (1 - 0.3) * (1 - 0.15) * (1 - 0.15) = 0.49425 ignore
When I have a 15% Ignore Weapon equipped, 49.425 - 15 = 34.425 ~= 35%.
So there appears to be issues rounding to the exact digit on percentage. Thus, I believe it can be concluded that Ambition, Character Decks, and Skills do not affect the displayed Defense Ignore gain on equipment.
In any case, some extensive testing with a large amount of defense ignore (2.5%, 15%, 15%, 15%, 30%, 30%) showed it to be multiplicative, giving the result ~70.660178125% ignored.
Reinforce Hyper Skills
As there appears to be some confusion over how these work, here is the order of operations:
In the bolded section, if you reach the 2m~2m cap, you will no longer gain damage by increasing these. After the bolded damage, any increase to the italicized can still increase your damage up to the 50m damage cap.
A Reinforce Hyper Skill will act as if you had 20% extra Total Damage (like the Potential) when using that skill. It does not add an additional 20% damage per hit, nor does it multiply the damage by 1.2x It adds 20% Total Damage to the skill.
As such, we found a Luminous's Apocalypse does not go from 340% to 360%, or 340% to 340% * 1.2, but rather goes from 340% * (1 + total_damage) to 340% * (1 + total_damage + 0.20).
I believe only in the case of a DoT Reinforce does it add 20% damage to the skill's base %.
A big thanks to Rom from EllinForest for helping me test both of these out.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Awesome.
Hopefully I'm not blind and didn't miss it in your post, but I was wondering if the ignore defense hyper skill makes it count as one or two sources.
Taking Dark Impale as an example, it has 20% DEF ignore to begin with, with another 20% as a possible hyper skill boost.
Would that be counted as 2 lines of 20% ignore, or one line of 40%? (Hoping you might know)
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
hold your horses, so basically about the reinforce skill, you're saying that if i used a skill with 100% damage, and i had 500% boss, the formula would go from:
range*1*5 to range*1*5.2 ?
that's pretty sucky for classes whose main attack has a small damage % ._.
this only for attacking skills though? or also passives/buffs? because if so kashimiya and me have a problem with that...
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by ShinkuDragon
hold your horses, so basically about the reinforce skill, you're saying that if i used a skill with 100% damage, and i had 500% boss, the formula would go from:
range*1*5 to range*1*5.2 ?
that's pretty sucky for classes whose main attack has a small damage % ._.
this only for attacking skills though? or also passives/buffs? because if so kashimiya and me have a problem with that...
Unless I'm not understanding what you're saying correctly, the % of your skills wouldn't matter would it?
All it means is that the boost of the reinforce hyper skill is not as high as many of us thought it would be.
Assuming we're right about Berserk being multiplicative over all the other factors and not +60% total damage, I'd imagine it'd still be a 1.8x multiplier after hypers.
I'm just basing it on the extractions saying "#damage%" rather than "#damR%".
EDIT: Gotcha, I assumed you thought it was multiplicative to begin with like I did...
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Yeah, it doesn't really have anything to do with the damage % value of skills since it's a multiplier, however it's much worse for characters with a lot of % damage buffs, like Kaiser, Hayato, Demon Slayer, and Xenon than characters with less.
Or, I guess you meant it'd be better for classes with lower damage values to have 20% added straight to the skill.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by iAmFear
Yeah, it doesn't really have anything to do with the damage % value of skills since it's a multiplier, however it's much worse for characters with a lot of % damage buffs, like Kaiser, Hayato, Demon Slayer, and Xenon than characters with less.
Or, I guess you meant it'd be better for classes with lower damage values to have 20% added straight to the skill.
that's what i meant, for example a mercedes would love 20% more on ishtar itself, rather than just 20% more damage on top of their 100%+ boss from equips, and 50%ish total damage from buffs.
@kashimiya: i'm saying it would be better for classes with weak main attacks to get 20% more damage on their main attack. above shows the difference it makes for a mercedes.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by ShinkuDragon
that's what i meant, for example a mercedes would love 20% more on ishtar itself, rather than just 20% more damage on top of their 100%+ boss from equips, and 50%ish total damage from buffs.
Think Nexon might have noticed that and is starting to change the reinforced hyper skills around to fit it?
They seem to have merged the damage increase and range onto the skill itself.
Can't really change how it works now, but it's going to be quite a bit to calculate if you have like 10+ different sources of defense ignore (Link / skills + passives, equipment + potential lines, nebulites, character card/decks, ambition).
I know with the change, having more defense ignore items is better, but you'll never reach 100% and will probably spill into the area of diminishing returns. How will you guys go about this or what preferred point would you stop at?
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by ShinkuDragon
that's what i meant, for example a mercedes would love 20% more on ishtar itself, rather than just 20% more damage on top of their 100%+ boss from equips, and 50%ish total damage from buffs.
@kashimiya: i'm saying it would be better for classes with weak main attacks to get 20% more damage on their main attack. above shows the difference it makes for a mercedes.
If it were like that, Mercedes would gain a 1.18x increase in damage, whereas classes like Buccaneers who have super high% per hit skills like Energy Blast would only get 1.036x increase in damage.
Originally Posted by Even
Does this mean boss dmg hyper also works differently or is that still just added like normal boss dmg?
Boss Killer Hyper Skills add Boss Damage, so they work the same as a Reinforce Hyper Skill, except it only applies to a boss.
Originally Posted by Kubi
Think Nexon might have noticed that and is starting to change the reinforced hyper skills around to fit it?
They seem to have merged the damage increase and range onto the skill itself.
They've done none of this. They removed Ring of Ishtar's Linked Reinforce Hyper Skill because it was a waste to have a Hyper Skill for a 4th job 1v1 attack dedicated to buffing a 3rd job mobbing skill.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by JoeTang
If it were like that, Mercedes would gain a 1.18x increase in damage, whereas classes like Buccaneers who have super high% per hit skills like Energy Blast would only get 1.036x increase in damage.
Boss Killer Hyper Skills add Boss Damage, so they work the same as a Reinforce Hyper Skill, except it only applies to a boss.
They've done none of this. They removed Ring of Ishtar's Linked Reinforce Hyper Skill because it was a waste to have a Hyper Skill for a 4th job 1v1 attack dedicated to buffing a 3rd job mobbing skill.
i wasn't sure if the skills before were skilldmg+20%, or skilldmg*20% (the second one would have been more "fair") but this method is the same thing you said about the mercs and buccs, but with the classes reversed.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Is there any confirmation that Advance Combo reinforce is applied to each orb? It is going to be 12% (14% with boss reinforce) hyper skill per orb times 10 or some reduced formula?
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by solarforce88
Is there any confirmation that Advance Combo reinforce is applied to each orb? It is going to be 12% (14% with boss reinforce) hyper skill per orb times 10 or some reduced formula?
I took the assumption that Reinforce adds to each orb to be 12%, and Boss Killer gives you 2% Boss Damage with each orb. You will need someone on GMS to test it when it is released.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by JoeTang
You will need someone on GMS to test it when it is released.
It's too bad Hero is one of the worse classes for testing anything... I was trying to confirm that I understand how damage works earlier, and I hit a crit for about 2k less than should have been possible given my understanding of the skills.
Spoiler
The particular lines I'm talking about are 346,452 crit and 424,873 non-crit. I have the same buffs against the same enemies, but even assuming that that's literally my highest possible non-crit, the crit's damage is too low (I suspect a 428k but the screenshot's unclear). 70% mastery means my lowest non-crit is at least 297,411, which if you compare it with that crit, says that my min-crit is at most 16.49% damage.
This discounts crit being calculated independently so I assume it is adding to ACA's 100% damage bonus. If Enrage's 15% min-crit is working, that should still be 17.5% criticals (235%/2-100%)
Plausible that Enrage's min-crit is as broken as the Night Lord criticals. But need to do more tests. And the 70% mastery makes it such a pain to hit anything near extreme ends of the range. These pictures showed up fairly quickly under testing though so it's possible my crits range even lower. I'd also note that the 479,600 in that screenshot is the highest crit I saw, so my crits are still within 70% mastery on their own.
I did on one level make a Hero so I could test formulas though, so if you can come up with a reasonable test I'll carry it out.
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
One thing I did notice when trying to do damage tests on Hero, is that I am having a hard time distinguishing RB (220%) lines from AFA (250%) lines. Could it be that the high non-crit was AFA?
Re: Defense Ignore Formula & Reinforce Hyper Skills
Originally Posted by SaptaZapta
One thing I did notice when trying to do damage tests on Hero, is that I am having a hard time distinguishing RB (220%) lines from AFA (250%) lines. Could it be that the high non-crit was AFA?
Personally I don't remember AFA hitting up that high, as in the top 2 lines.. It's usually at the bottom 2 lines o_o
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