GOKU VS SUPERMAN

[Lozmaster]

You don't see the irony of him stating "I want to fight you at your best" then essentially sucker punching him in the face?

No? He waited until superman was able to defend himself again. Massive difference between not wanting to attack someone who CAN'T defend himself, and attacking someone who is able to but chose not to.

Or the fact that he couldn't figure out the sun meant stronger before having to throw him into it?

Please, point out to me the moment that it would have been obvious in the middle of that fight, prior to knocking superman into the sun, that Supermans power comes from the sun? It wouldn't have.

Considering he kind of handles life energy as kind of an attack. That's a huge inconsistency I can't take, when has goku ever tried to read someones mind like that to find a weakness?

When? Never. When has goku ever come up with a plan from the start of dragonball z that didn't consist solely of BIGGER KAMEHAMEHA (and if/when that failed, spirit bomb, which then inevitably fails too.)?

Because Goku is an absolute idiot in terms of strategy.

Goku vs Raditz?
Hold him still and get piccolo to kill them both. Despite preventing him from moving at multiple times by grabbing his tail.
Has to die to win because of his stupidity.

Goku vs Vegeta? Beaten to near death because he couldn't beat up vegeta with his kaioken/kamehameha, so he stands there like a idiot charging a spirit bomb. Still doesn't work. Then other people have to beat Vegeta for him.

Goku vs Frieza? Can't beat him up with kamehamehas and kaio ken. Defaults to spirit bomb. stands there like an absolute idiot again for a ridiculous amount of time. Still doesn't work. Has to pull a powerup out of his ass to win.

Goku vs Cell? Biggest Kamehameha he could muster fails, so he just gives up and proceeds to nearly get Gohan and the entire world destroyed (which he had to die again to prevent). Clearly a brilliant plan there.

Goku vs buu? Can't win in a fight, utterly refuses to do a fusion dance with vegeta towards the end, despite the entirety of existance hanging in the balance on the small hope that they stop being retards and do it (Both of them refused). Then, after losing his match vs buu, he even has to be reminded that he could use a spirit bomb, which only worked through multiple deus ex machinas.

You imagining that he's is some sort of genius doesn't make it true. Infact, Goku trying to read his opponents mind to find a weakness is significantly SMARTER than goku should have been.

[Link]

Please, point out to me the moment that it would have been obvious in the middle of that fight, prior to knocking superman into the sun, that Supermans power comes from the sun? It wouldn't have.

The part where he says he's losing power, then flies into the Sun.

When? Never. When has goku ever come up with a plan from the start of dragonball z that didn't consist solely of BIGGER KAMEHAMEHA (and if/when that failed, spirit bomb, which then inevitably fails too.)?

I think you're mistaking Dragon Ball + Z for Dragon Ball GT.

Goku vs Raditz?
Hold him still and get piccolo to kill them both. Despite preventing him from moving at multiple timesby grabbing his tail.
Has to die to win because of his stupidity.

Once.

Goku vs Vegeta? Beaten to near death because he couldn't beat up vegeta with his kaioken/kamehameha, so he stands there like a idiot charging a spirit bomb. Still doesn't work. Then other people have to beat Vegeta for him.

To be fair, Goku was going to lose no matter what he did. He had to try something. Vegeta was more powerful and is a better tactician than Goku.

Goku vs Frieza? Can't beat him up with kamehamehas and kaio ken. Defaults to spirit bomb. stands there like an absolute idiot again for a ridiculous amount of time. Still doesn't work. Has to pull a powerup out of his ass to win.

I'd like to see you come up with a strategy that works against a universally feared, seemingly invincible pimento that is so much powerful than you, it hurts just thinking about it. He even makes the King of all Worlds shake in his boots.

Goku vs Cell? Biggest Kamehameha he could muster fails, so he just gives up and proceeds to nearly get Gohan and the entire world destroyed (which he had to die again to prevent). Clearly a brilliant plan there.

Goku never fought Cell for the sake of defeating him.

Goku vs buu? Can't win in a fight, utterly refuses to do a fusion dance with vegeta towards the end, despite the entirety of existance hanging in the balance on the small hope that they stop being retards and do it (Both of them refused). Then, after losing his match vs buu, he even has to be reminded that he could use a spirit bomb, which only worked through multiple deus ex machinas.

-Can't win in a fight... Against a being significantly more powerful being that automatically regenerates every time it gets blown to the smallest pieces. Let's call that a mark against his mental capabilities, why don't we?
-He refuses to do the fusion dance because at that point, he could've won on his own. Super Saiyan 3 was enough to kill him off, but he wanted Vegeta to get some of the glory.
-Goku didn't lose against Kid Buu. He stepped back and let Vegeta have a shot. When Vegeta was absolutely stomped, Goku was too exhausted due to the strain of Super Saiyan 3 on his living body - which, may I add, he never experienced before. Moreover, he was aware of the Spirit Bomb, but he didn't consider it a choice because it had never succeeded in defeating his opponent before. It was then proposed to summon Porunga, the Namekian Eternal Dragon, to wish back all of the people of the Earth, along side the Earth itself, in order to get all of the energy required to use the Spirit Bomb.

You imagining that he's is some sort of genius doesn't make it true. Infact, Goku trying to read his opponents mind to find a weakness is significantly SMARTER than goku should have been.

Goku is a fighting genius, not an intellectual genius. Nonetheless, that animation pegged Goku incorrectly, both ways. Yes, he is an idiot by the book, but his genius-level fighting skills should've been displayed differently.

In the end, Screw Attack is pretty dumb when it comes to these <Person> vs. <Person> videos. For instance, I saw a video of Boba Fett vs. Samus Aran... They had Samus start off the fight using the tiny ass, 3 pixel ranged beam from the very original Metroid, then follow up with some other beam that had a significantly longer range and significantly more powerful abilities the next second. Seriously? If Samus was that well-prepared that she would've had those upgrades on-hand, she would've used them from the get-go. Why are they even considering such a short range beam in a death battle, anyway? It's not like it's part of her usual weaponry. That short-ranged shot was there because that was the very first mission Samus ever went on as a solitary "bounty hunter"/Galactic Warrior, before she had ever come across the Chozo artifacts that gave her suit upgrades.

[Lozmaster]

The part where he says he's losing power, then flies into the Sun.

Are you serious. When superman says "I need to get to the sun" the next thing goku says in that video is something along the lines of "Oh my, he's using the sun to gain power".

I think you're mistaking Dragon Ball + Z for Dragon Ball GT.

Having never watched GT, that can't be possible.

Once.

Ok, I could have sworn he did it twice in the anime. I'm not going to check though. It might happen only once in the manga, I guess.

Regardless, this is the ONE time he actually thinks it through and works out his opponents weakness, and even then he royally pineapples it up.

To be fair, Goku was going to lose no matter what he did. He had to try something. Vegeta was more powerful and is a better tactician than Goku.

No. He could have made a proper spirit bomb before he fought vegeta. Or NOT STOOD RIGHT IN THE OPEN when he tried to charge one in the middle of the fight.

I'd like to see you come up with a strategy that works against a universally feared, seemingly invincible pimento that is so much powerful than you, it hurts just thinking about it. He even makes the King of all Worlds shake in his boots.

Hurdurdur. So, what you're saying is Goku DOES pick fights with people who are virtually invincible and stronger than him, JUST like Superman? Well ok then.

Goku never fought Cell for the sake of defeating him.

What the pineapple? Then why was he fighting him? To lose to him? You're just making Goku look even more retarded. Not to mention he fully healed cell after fighting him with a senzu bean, you going to tell me that was a good strategy too?


[qupte]
-Can't win in a fight... Against a being significantly more powerful being that automatically regenerates every time it gets blown to the smallest pieces. Let's call that a mark against his mental capabilities, why don't we?[/quote]

Who wouldn't even have been revived if goku wasn't a dumbass.

-He refuses to do the fusion dance because at that point, he could've won on his own. Super Saiyan 3 was enough to kill him off, but he wanted Vegeta to get some of the glory.

He couldn't hold Super saiyan 3 in his alive body. Goku was being a moron again. If he COULD have used super saiyan 3 to beat him, he wouldn't have failed at using super saiyan 3 to beat him. HE didn't want Vegeta to get some of the glory, you're just making pomegranate up. HE needed the time to attempt to build power, which HE COULD NOT DO.

Vegeta and then good buu fought kid buu to stall him while Goku attempted to build up power/ make the universal spirit bomb. And even then, it took a dues ex machina to give him the strength to hit buu with the spirit bomb.
You seriously need to rewatch the ending of that fight if you think that's even remotely how it went down.

-Goku didn't lose against Kid Buu. He stepped back and let Vegeta have a shot. When Vegeta was absolutely stomped, Goku was too exhausted due to the strain of Super Saiyan 3 on his living body - which, may I add, he never experienced before.

Doesn't matter. He thought he had a strategy, and, as you've pointed out, just like all of gokus other strategies, it FAILED.

Moreover, he was aware of the Spirit Bomb, but he didn't consider it a choice because it had never succeeded in defeating his opponent before. It was then proposed to summon Porunga, the Namekian Eternal Dragon, to wish back all of the people of the Earth, along side the Earth itself, in order to get all of the energy required to use the Spirit Bomb.

Which again, was all vegetas idea, not Gokus.

Are you trying to prove Goku never had a good idea that worked the way he wanted in the entire series? Because you're making a very compelling argument for that.

Goku is a fighting genius, not an intellectual genius. Nonetheless, that animation pegged Goku incorrectly, both ways. Yes, he is an idiot by the book, but his genius-level fighting skills should've been displayed differently.

Yes, he's an incredible fighter. Thats why he was able to last so long and actually force a being, who by the very definition is invincible, unconscious. You take that as a bad showing of his fighting skills? Then you're a fool.

All I got from this is that you're pissed that Goku lost an unwinnable battle and trying to vaguely make things up to somehow suggest he should won.

[Link]

Are you serious. When superman says "I need to get to the sun" the next thing goku says in that video is something along the lines of "Oh my, he's using the sun to gain power".

prior to knocking superman into the sun,

Well, there you go.

Having never watched GT, that can't be possible.

Well, you're confusing it for something, because Goku used a lot more than just Kamehameha, Kaiouken and Spirit Bombs to fight with.

Ok, I could have sworn he did it twice in the anime. I'm not going to check though. It might happen only once in the manga, I guess.

Regardless, this is the ONE time he actually thinks it through and works out his opponents weakness, and even then he royally pineapples it up.

It was twice in the Team Four Star's Dragon Ball Z Abridged series, if you watched that. I've recently watched through the Japanese version of the anime and he only did it once.

No. He could have made a proper spirit bomb before he fought vegeta. Or NOT STOOD RIGHT IN THE OPEN when he tried to charge one in the middle of the fight.

Uh, what? There's nothing that says the Spirit Bomb can be held indefinitely. You should know Goku. He doesn't go in from the start and use the ultimate technique and hope and pray it one-hit kills the guy. He wants to see what the guy can really do and test his own limits.

Hurdurdur. So, what you're saying is Goku DOES pick fights with people who are virtually invincible and stronger than him, JUST like Superman? Well ok then.

That wasn't really an issue of, "Oh, hey! You're strong! Let's fight!" It was more of an issue of, "OH, DEAR GOD! MY FRIENDS AND SON ARE GETTING SLAUGHTERED! The fate of the entire universe is at stake! I must do something to stop him!"

What the pineapple? Then why was he fighting him? To lose to him? You're just making Goku look even more retarded. Not to mention he fully healed cell after fighting him with a senzu bean, you going to tell me that was a good strategy too?

He fought him because... that's Goku. He loves to test his own abilities - to push himself beyond the limits of his own self. He loves to fight enemies stronger than himself, to see what he is fully capable of and how he can improve. Plus, Cell wanted to fight Goku. Cell's whole goal was to defeat Goku in a match. Goku gave Cell the Senzu Bean more as a taunt than anything. He knew that his son would obliterate the hell out of Cell. Goku wanted Cell and Gohan to both go at it at their best, or otherwise, Gohan may not have gotten the push he needed to ascend.

Who wouldn't even have been revived if goku wasn't a dumbass.

What do you mean? Vegeta was going to kill innocent people. Goku's choice was to either let everyone on Earth get slaughtered out of Vegeta's blind rage or fight him, face to face. Either way, the juice required to revive Buu would've been collected in the end.

He couldn't hold Super saiyan 3 in his alive body. Goku was being a moron again. If he COULD have used super saiyan 3 to beat him, he wouldn't have failed at using super saiyan 3 to beat him. HE didn't want Vegeta to get some of the glory, you're just making pomegranate up. HE needed the time to attempt to build power, which HE COULD NOT DO.

Vegeta and then good buu fought kid buu to stall him while Goku attempted to build up power/ make the universal spirit bomb. And even then, it took a dues ex machina to give him the strength to hit buu with the spirit bomb.
You seriously need to rewatch the ending of that fight if you think that's even remotely how it went down.

I'm making shit up? Yeah, okay. Go watch the fight on the planet of the Kais again. When Goku steps back, he says something along the lines of, "Yeah, I could've finished him off at the beginning, but I wanted you to have a try," when speaking to Vegeta. Then Goku says he has a plan and needs time to gather the energy, so he asks Vegeta to try and hold off Buu. Unfortunately, Goku wasn't able to gather the energy in the end, as his power was too drained from Super Saiyan 3. Then they both pretty much give up, then come up with the plan of the Spirit Bomb and whatnot. Then, Fat Buu steps in and fights Kid Buu and... Mr. Satan stands there like a moron, taunting Kid Buu. 20 episodes later, Mr. Satan gets Earthlings to listen to the pleas of everyone putting their hands up in the air, so the energy is collected and used. Unfortunately, Goku's strength is too diminished and Kid Buu starts pushing the gigantic ball back. The Namekians remind King Kai / Vegeta that there's still a wish remaining and that Porunga was getting pissy over waiting, then they have Porunga restore Goku's energy, allowing him to push the ball back at Kid Buu, destroying the existence of the evil half of Buu.

Doesn't matter. He thought he had a strategy, and, as you've pointed out, just like all of gokus other strategies, it FAILED.

It's a plot device called "suspense."

Which again, was all vegetas idea, not Gokus.

I never said it was.

Yes, he's an incredible fighter. Thats why he was able to last so long and actually force a being, who by the very definition is invincible, unconscious. You take that as a bad showing of his fighting skills? Then you're a fool.

Did you really watch that? Because that wasn't really anything. It was a bunch of hooplah. The mere fact that the Power Pole was even in the video was dumb. And the way it worked on Superman? Not even. Superman doesn't get affected by magic infused in a weapon/Human. He's affected by magic such as spells/curses used on him.

All I got from this is that you're pissed that Goku lost an unwinnable battle and trying to vaguely make things up to somehow suggest he should won.

Not even. I've said many times in the past Superman would absolutely destroy Goku with relative ease. I know Superman's capabilities. I've not once thought it could go the other way.

[Dredragon]

Lmao, Goku totally kicked super man in the face off guard. He wasn't even finished thanking goku before he was sent flying.
And about the power pole, I bet goku could of made a ki pole that would be stronger. Pretty sure vegeto can make a ki looking sword, so it's likely goku could do that with the pole. I was honestly like wdp when he brought out the pole, anything would of been better I bet, even some ki blasts.

[KhainiWest]

Lmao, Goku totally kicked super man in the face off guard. He wasn't even finished thanking goku before he was sent flying.
And about the power pole, I bet goku could of made a ki pole that would be stronger. Pretty sure vegeto can make a ki looking sword, so it's likely goku could do that with the pole. I was honestly like wdp when he brought out the pole, anything would of been better I bet, even some ki blasts.

Ki isn't magic, it's life energy, which is something goku should have seen at the start of the fight when superman was getting closer to the sun.

@Lozmaster;

You really don't know much about DBZ so I'll let Justin correct your perspectives, even in the analysis with goku by the very creators of the animation state goku is a fighting genius, that ki is life energy, that superman gains that same energy from the sun. It's clearly obvious that they gave goku the short stick and were trying to market the humor more than anything.

[byakugan]

To me, despite all the numbers and stuff at the end, Goku was really underpowered in this fight. If you remember Vegeta was already able to blow up planets with ease before his first fight with Goku, then with a 4x KaioKen Goku could surpass Vegeta at his full power (lets say at this point his power was 20.000). By the time he got to Namek and fought Ginyu he had 200.000 power with a 1x KaioKen, 10 times more than when he fought Vegeta. Then comes Freezer with a 1 million power in his first transformation and lets asume his power went up to 5 million after he released all of his powers in his last form. If we put SSJ 1 Goku at the same level (5 million) that power at that point should be over 250 stronger than when he beat Vegeta.

I really could go on making these "calculations" based on the enemy's strengths, but my point is, if Goku was already capable of blowing up planets when he fought Vegeta, freaking SSJ1 should be able to blow uo galaxies, so don't freaking pretend SSJ4 Goku wouldn't be able to achieve the same features Superman can, like pulling around Galaxies or resisting supernovas and shet.

Many things about this fight seemed ridiculous to me, Goku using the Nimbus at this point, using the pole, throwing a KameHameHa in SSJ1 and merely breaking a skyscrapper and specially Goku trying to mind attack Superman. wtp, Goku might have that ability but in all of DragonBall's history he never used it once against an opponent. He is a martial artist, not a psychic.

the problem with this fight is both characters are full of inconsistences though. Goku's power levels were inconsistent in that sometimes were portrayed capable of blowing up a planet by just transforming and other times making that same transformation look like a mere joke. Now Superman is waaaay worse in this field though. Since Superman belongs to DC comics and not an unique writer, everytime DC wants to milk it they hire someone else, make a new comic about him and change whatever the hell they want around. There are how many Supermen again? each with different limits.

In any case Superman might have won this fight but there is no doubt that out of USA, Goku is the true #1.

[KhainiWest]

In any case Superman might have won this fight but there is no doubt that out of USA, Goku is the true #1 one.

Hey I'm usa and I feel the same as you. But superman is pretty goddamn broken.

[Malthe]

This has gone on for long enough

Spoiler

[Sn1perJohnE]

My friend voices Chi Chi in this.

[Narwhal]

This has gone on for long enough

Spoiler

That's a pretty great internet debate put-down pic, but I don't think it is as good as this other internet debate put-down pic I saw awhile back.

When I find it, I'll post it. But this one pales in comparison.

[MetaSeraphim]

That's a pretty great internet debate put-down pic, but I don't think it is as good as this other internet debate put-down pic I saw awhile back.

When I find it, I'll post it. But this one pales in comparison.

Talk about a cock-tease.

[Foxino]

Goku will always be the winner in my eyes. This debate is far from over.

But in honesty this should have been called T4S Goku Vs Superman.