Maple Advisory Council

[Zelkova]

I'm not sure if you just haven't gotten to it yet or not, but none of the links to the sites under groups/communities/sites and important people actually work.

Pretty sure he's working on it.

[Tyler]

I'm not sure if you just haven't gotten to it yet or not, but none of the links to the sites under groups/communities/sites and important people actually work.

Anyway, it's a rather interesting project. Would love to see it work out, I know from experience that helping GMs/Nexon ban people is no easy feat.

Yep, they were originally but working on fixing that now. Just some PHP mumbo jumbo to resolve. Good eye though!
And all great strides require patience and effort. :)

Pretty sure he's working on it.

Hah, all fixed now.
Links are fixed as well, was just the typical.. missing a period or quotes. #fmlphp

[VerrKol]

I'm pretty skeptical about the idea. It seems rather naive. The lack of official recognition from Nexon is rather troubling.

I love the idea about creating for efficient channels of communication between the community and Nexon. It seems many players know about exploits, bugs, and hacking long before Nexon's employees do. Hopefully a program like this could change that, but so much depends on the level of resources Nexon is willing to devote to the project.

I'm also concerned about the selection process for the program... It reads like a popularity contest that has little to do with actual qualifications and blanketly excludes a great many people that could be potentially very helpful by having no application process whatsoever.

[Tyler]

I'm pretty skeptical about the idea. It seems rather naive. The lack of official recognition from Nexon is rather troubling.

I love the idea about creating for efficient channels of communication between the community and Nexon. It seems many players know about exploits, bugs, and hacking long before Nexon's employees do. Hopefully a program like this could change that, but so much depends on the level of resources Nexon is willing to devote to the project.

I'm also concerned about the selection process for the program... It reads like a popularity contest that has little to do with actual qualifications and blanketly excludes a great many people that could be potentially very helpful by having no application process whatsoever.

Several of Nexon's staff have read and seen the Council already (and has been brought up to some of their staff directly as well), although there will not be any official announcement until I send the project to them personally once completed.

On a brighter note though, the selection process will work out because only players (or people) who are qualified to fulfill the requirements of the project will be contacted, and even those may not be chosen. My goal for the project is to create a team of active, committed team members that will make the Council not only work well, but inspire other companies and groups to adopt similar programs for their games. It's basically a collaborative effort to improve MMORPGs / gaming in general. :)

[Takebacker]

There are some kinks, but it certainly looks promising...

@Tyler;

1) How do you suggest Nexon dedicate the kind of resources necessary to create the programs/items/features necessary for this system to operate (specifically, second line of defense, report system, giving GM-esqe abilities to non-GM characters, etc) while also putting a focus on lessening of resources in the corporate environment? Seems contradictory.

2) How do you define "fully committed"? How does selection occur? Would being on a fansite give leverage in this process? Would knowledge of the game's updates and/or mechanics give leverage? How are they supposed to know who is the best person for the job on a world by world basis? What happens when a member wants out?

3) How can you define what the council will handle when there are no documentation on Nexon's stance towards certain isues? Specifically, anything in the ToS that they don't already monitor and react to? (buying/selling in-game items or real life items (who sells real life items in maple anyway? why should nexon care if i advertise the sale of my television in their game?), KSing/harrassment, scamming, etc)

4) What is going to happen when a council member gives a bunch of names to Nexon and only half of them are actually banned because the other half spent a large amount of money on the game or because those accounts used paypal and can refund their money? (read: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=60929) What happens when after this happens, the council sees this player again and didn't know about this policy of Nexons? How are you going to guarantee that someone who isn't directly tied to Nexon won't stab them in the back (by, say, using that twitter account of theirs to spread negative statements about their business practices) if they don't agree with their policies?

Put in different words: Why should the council stay dedicated to Nexon when/if they realize their policies are different from what they think their ideals were?

5) Why do you think the council deserves amenities? A large amount of people who have suggested systems like this have said that people who are "fully committed" don't require benefits to make the job worth doing. Communication between Nexon and the council is fine, but an allowance of maple points seems a bit much especially when there is no way to make sure it won't be spent on non-decor short of cutting them from the council. Also, giving a normal character the ability to warp to ANY MAP with no restriction is hilariously bad. Remedied by making a new character, but why is that any different from a normal GM?

6) It seems like this system would end with a divide in community opinion (if it succeeds) towards the council and actual GMs. If the community sees the council doing an amazing job, why should they treat the GMs the way they have till now as if they had real authority?

[Caudatus]

As a former member of the MWLB, I like the idea of the council, hell I liked the idea of the MWLB. Doing something to help the community of a game you enjoy playing is always a fine ambition. I just don't see it succeeding sadly. I've often thought Nexon could have done a lot more with the MWLB if they'd done a better job of things, but I don't think a community driven group is going to work out any better than that experience did. I liked the people they chose for the program, I liked the GMs who worked with the program, but in the end it always fell short of where it needed to be in order to be successful.

Not that there weren't some people who tried very hard to make it successful, but there was a rather high drop rate of people involved amongst the few chosen to help, without even going into the other problems that plagued the program. I think if you try to add just a few people and make it work, it will fail rather quickly. Even highly dedicated people can't always find the time to split between the game and real life, let alone a significant time sink like this would be. I feel like unless you get a solid group of people on each server who can all take on some of the burdens that it would entail, it has little to no chance of succeeding. And even with a group like that, there will still be times when some servers would be understaffed just due to the way life works out.

So do you add more people or allow people to transfer servers? Do you dedicate more resources to the larger servers? Then there's issues with larger groups of people, like how do you all stay on the same page when you may have very differing viewpoints? What if you don't present a unified front, how long will it take for the community to take sides? Then there's the issues further down the line after the program has been working for a while. For example, how do you decide who should and shouldn't remain in the program? How can you keep people motivated after the initial starting period?

There's a lot of issues with programs like this (Takebacker mentioned a few more to consider too), and while the MWLB may have helped Nexon answer some of the questions I posed, there are many more that are unknown, simply because you can't predict how things will turn out. I'm not saying all this to dissuade you from your goals, I'm merely suggesting a handful of things that occurred to me as I looked into the idea and thought of my own past experiences.

Still, I like the thought of a community cleaning up their own games, even now. And perhaps Nexon will embrace the idea, if only for the good PR they might be able to get out of it. XP So in spite of my doubts, I wish you well and I'll throw my support in as well if you would like it. Not sure what sort of proof you might like, but I suppose that's probably best left to PMs or emails.

[Tyler]

There are some kinks, but it certainly looks promising...

@Tyler;

1) How do you suggest Nexon dedicate the kind of resources necessary to create the programs/items/features necessary for this system to operate (specifically, second line of defense, report system, giving GM-esqe abilities to non-GM characters, etc) while also putting a focus on lessening of resources in the corporate environment? Seems contradictory.

Think of it like alternative energy. To save money you must first spend some. There is a document with more personal information such as costs, resources needed, and more and I can ensure you that the costs of developing the system into the game would be minimal, along with staffing as it would be built into their already made system.

2) How do you define "fully committed"? How does selection occur? Would being on a fansite give leverage in this process? Would knowledge of the game's updates and/or mechanics give leverage? How are they supposed to know who is the best person for the job on a world by world basis? What happens when a member wants out?

Fully committed means a player or individual that has a passion about making a difference in the community and is willing to sacrifice their own time for the better good of others, giving them humanitarian values.

Selection would occur by a select portion of Nexon's team going through the entire internet (fansites, their own official forums, in-game, and even social media such as Twitter and Facebook) to find any potentials. They would then contact each and after a series of elimination, get a set of Council members.

Confidential matters are kept confidential, which includes game updates. Besides casual talk, information about updates, events, and so forth would be kept secret as normal.

When a member wants out, they must let their appointed nexon representative about it and their service will be concluded. They will lose access to their Council account, and the medal on their character (assuming they are given one) will be removed next maintenance.

3) How can you define what the council will handle when there are no documentation on Nexon's stance towards certain isues? Specifically, anything in the ToS that they don't already monitor and react to? (buying/selling in-game items or real life items (who sells real life items in maple anyway? why should nexon care if i advertise the sale of my television in their game?), KSing/harrassment, scamming, etc)

Only matters that are assigned to a Council member or discussed in their handbook will be handled, nothing else. If there is an event taking place that is not documented there will be no action against it. This does not always mean that what is in the Terms of Service will be the same as their job, although it isn't to create any unfair advantage to getting players reported. It's a fair system.

Additionally just to state, kill stealing is against the Terms of Service and has always been bannable. Kill stealing falls under the category of 'restricting a player's normal gameplay or interrupting gameplay.

4) What is going to happen when a council member gives a bunch of names to Nexon and only half of them are actually banned because the other half spent a large amount of money on the game or because those accounts used paypal and can refund their money? (read: http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=60929) What happens when after this happens, the council sees this player again and didn't know about this policy of Nexons? How are you going to guarantee that someone who isn't directly tied to Nexon won't stab them in the back (by, say, using that twitter account of theirs to spread negative statements about their business practices) if they don't agree with their policies?

Put in different words: Why should the council stay dedicated to Nexon when/if they realize their policies are different from what they think their ideals were?

If the inability to ban players as discussed above is true, then that isn't avoidable.

You asked.. "What happens when after this happens, the council sees this player again and didn't know about this policy of Nexons?"

They would still be reported. Reporting does not mean a player will be ban, it is merely alerting Nexon America of an issue. The same would go for normal players reporting them.

It wouldn't matter if it's a Council member or anyone, if someone says anything that can harm a company they can be contacted by their PR department to remove the content and further legally. All Council members will be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement so if they say anything confidential it would be ..well, let's put it bad.

5) Why do you think the council deserves amenities? A large amount of people who have suggested systems like this have said that people who are "fully committed" don't require benefits to make the job worth doing. Communication between Nexon and the council is fine, but an allowance of maple points seems a bit much especially when there is no way to make sure it won't be spent on non-decor short of cutting them from the council. Also, giving a normal character the ability to warp to ANY MAP with no restriction is hilariously bad. Remedied by making a new character, but why is that any different from a normal GM?

An allowance would be given because that's what Nexon does and it doesn't hurt to give something back to someone who is helping the community. Staff are given NX, interns are given NX, everyone who helps at Nexon is; this isn't an issue.

Additionally, seems there is a mix-up, although any NX on the Council account is Decoration only. The NX given as an allowance to the Council member's main account could be spend on anything. The same goes for their staff.

Why would being able to teleport to any map be an issue? When teleporting the Council member is kept invisible. This would help in those cases of if a player says "Hey there's so and so doing so and so in this map!". The council member could then teleport there and check on it. If there's nothing wrong, then nothing is wrong. If there is, it'll be handled.

6) It seems like this system would end with a divide in community opinion (if it succeeds) towards the council and actual GMs. If the community sees the council doing an amazing job, why should they treat the GMs the way they have till now as if they had real authority?

When a player sees a GM they known that they work for Nexon America and are 'staff'. When a player sees a Council member they will know that they are more or less helpers in-game. An announcement would be made on the main site as well as in their information databases so there would not be any vagueness.

Sorry if there's any odd responses to the questions, it's past midnight and had a long day. Feel free to ask anything more! :)

[SaptaZapta]

Selection would occur by a select portion of Nexon's team going through the entire internet (fansites, their own official forums, in-game, and even social media such as Twitter and Facebook) to find any potentials. They would then contact each and after a series of elimination, get a set of Council members.

This, all by itself, represents way more investment than Nexon would ever put into this program. In my humble opinion.

If they were willing to spend time in forums and in-game (roflmao) they wouldn't need this "volunteer police" force.
And don't tell me "yes, but this is once and for all, not a continuous effort" - no, not really. First, you yourself write "series of elimination" which means trying and retrying. And then I expect a high level of attrition among the members, as with the MWLB before them. There are only so many "GM, he's ks'ing me, ban him!" (and the ensuing "He started it" "I've been here for hours" "I was born here and so was my father" "Ban him already!" "Sorry, I can't ban, but I have alerted a GM") a person can take before deciding this community isn't worth their time.
So every time one of your not-even-a-handful per server wears out, Nexon need to go scouting for someone new? Forget it. Might as well hire more GMs.

[KhainiWest]

This, all by itself, represents way more investment than Nexon would ever put into this program. In my humble opinion.

If they were willing to spend time in forums and in-game (roflmao) they wouldn't need this "volunteer police" force.
And don't tell me "yes, but this is once and for all, not a continuous effort" - no, not really. First, you yourself write "series of elimination" which means trying and retrying. And then I expect a high level of attrition among the members, as with the MWLB before them. There are only so many "GM, he's ks'ing me, ban him!" (and the ensuing "He started it" "I've been here for hours" "I was born here and so was my father" "Ban him already!" "Sorry, I can't ban, but I have alerted a GM") a person can take before deciding this community isn't worth their time.
So every time one of your not-even-a-handful per server wears out, Nexon need to go scouting for someone new? Forget it. Might as well hire more GMs.

Not positive on this but GM's, and hopefully the "council" have the ability to look at previous chat within the channel.

[Tyler]

As a former member of the MWLB, I like the idea of the council, hell I liked the idea of the MWLB. Doing something to help the community of a game you enjoy playing is always a fine ambition. I just don't see it succeeding sadly. I've often thought Nexon could have done a lot more with the MWLB if they'd done a better job of things, but I don't think a community driven group is going to work out any better than that experience did. I liked the people they chose for the program, I liked the GMs who worked with the program, but in the end it always fell short of where it needed to be in order to be successful.

Not that there weren't some people who tried very hard to make it successful, but there was a rather high drop rate of people involved amongst the few chosen to help, without even going into the other problems that plagued the program. I think if you try to add just a few people and make it work, it will fail rather quickly. Even highly dedicated people can't always find the time to split between the game and real life, let alone a significant time sink like this would be. I feel like unless you get a solid group of people on each server who can all take on some of the burdens that it would entail, it has little to no chance of succeeding. And even with a group like that, there will still be times when some servers would be understaffed just due to the way life works out.

So do you add more people or allow people to transfer servers? Do you dedicate more resources to the larger servers? Then there's issues with larger groups of people, like how do you all stay on the same page when you may have very differing viewpoints? What if you don't present a unified front, how long will it take for the community to take sides? Then there's the issues further down the line after the program has been working for a while. For example, how do you decide who should and shouldn't remain in the program? How can you keep people motivated after the initial starting period?

There's a lot of issues with programs like this (Takebacker mentioned a few more to consider too), and while the MWLB may have helped Nexon answer some of the questions I posed, there are many more that are unknown, simply because you can't predict how things will turn out. I'm not saying all this to dissuade you from your goals, I'm merely suggesting a handful of things that occurred to me as I looked into the idea and thought of my own past experiences.

Still, I like the thought of a community cleaning up their own games, even now. And perhaps Nexon will embrace the idea, if only for the good PR they might be able to get out of it. XP So in spite of my doubts, I wish you well and I'll throw my support in as well if you would like it. Not sure what sort of proof you might like, but I suppose that's probably best left to PMs or emails.

Thank you greatly for writing this response and I'll take much of it into changing the program to make it more stable and supportive. An idea can jumpstart the project, but you're right about not letting it die down and keeping the interest alive. I can accept your involvement with the MWLB as you're aware of how it was kept, although being aware myself; I wanted to build upon what was previously there, and correct all those little mistakes that were present before.

I've been with the community for awhile and it's something that means a lot to me, so doing anything possible to keep it alive and better it for everyone is important to me. While it may be a game, MapleStory has been apart of hundreds of lives and I can say myself it's impacted who I am. With that in mind, the community in-game has worsened, a lot to blame to how certain matters have been handled by Nexon and other issues. In time, let's hope that can be better.

A great part of being able to work with the Council myself however is my presence already with Nexon. I visit them almost every month and am invited to occasional events and private discussions so I would have to option to actually sit down with their team (assuming it's needed) and plan out what has to be done, expenses, etc.

I'm looking forward to having the project be a success, but that doesn't mean there won't be pitfalls along the way. Thanks for the support you've given yourself though now and then! :)

Not positive on this but GM's, and hopefully the "council" have the ability to look at previous chat within the channel.

That would be the case. All chatlogs are accessible by Nexon's team but wouldn't by Council members because of how their system works. All of that is only visible from their computers + wouldn't be needed.

This, all by itself, represents way more investment than Nexon would ever put into this program. In my humble opinion.

If they were willing to spend time in forums and in-game (roflmao) they wouldn't need this "volunteer police" force.
And don't tell me "yes, but this is once and for all, not a continuous effort" - no, not really. First, you yourself write "series of elimination" which means trying and retrying. And then I expect a high level of attrition among the members, as with the MWLB before them. There are only so many "GM, he's ks'ing me, ban him!" (and the ensuing "He started it" "I've been here for hours" "I was born here and so was my father" "Ban him already!" "Sorry, I can't ban, but I have alerted a GM") a person can take before deciding this community isn't worth their time.
So every time one of your not-even-a-handful per server wears out, Nexon need to go scouting for someone new? Forget it. Might as well hire more GMs.

They went through quite a bit of investment of time to consider who would be a Volunteer, including myself and others, as well as when the original MWLB program was in existence, except it was by email application.

If there's ever a confusion or a Council member doesn't know how to handle a situation they can always ask their Nexon representative or merely ignore it. In more situations unless told otherwise a Council member will not be able to interact with players while they're 'patrolling' which would include watching over a fight. This is why there would not be an idea of misusing their power, as players will not know if they are infact in the map or simply poofed.

Nexon wouldn't have to go scouting for a new player, there would still be the original list of players and the next couple would be contacted. There's been dozens of players on their own forums (as well as other places) that are veterans of the community including some of the members and other staff here that would be able to contribute in the case a previous member has to leave. When the issue comes along, it'll be dealt with then.

[Eos]

they can always ask their Nexon representative or merely ignore it.

I really wish you'd just call them handlers. 'Nexon Representative' is an awful long way of implying the handler is an advocate rather than a resource/babysitter.

[Tyler]

I really wish you'd just call them handlers. 'Nexon Representative' is an awful long way of implying the handler is an advocate rather than a resource/babysitter.

I can, just had that term attached for awhile haha. :)

[Takebacker]

Think of it like alternative energy. To save money you must first spend some. There is a document with more personal information such as costs, resources needed, and more and I can ensure you that the costs of developing the system into the game would be minimal, along with staffing as it would be built into their already made system.

My concerns was more towards extra security layers and designing game items that won't generate any revenue period (directly or indirectly). Extra security is s'hitty to develop especially since this isn't a company specializing in security. This isn't something they can outsource, and given what we know about Nexon and familiarity with their systems, it would take a long time to finally get right. (of course, it would be MORE than worth it if done right but doing something right is a tall order)

Fully committed means a player or individual that has a passion about making a difference in the community and is willing to sacrifice their own time for the better good of others, giving them humanitarian values.

Most of my response to this would be covered by what caudatus said above. Life happens, people change, etc. Nothing against wanting committed members, of course that's nice to have/want, it's just really hard to find in someone who lasts and is consistent in their work. But you know this.

Selection would occur by a select portion of Nexon's team going through the entire internet (fansites, their own official forums, in-game, and even social media such as Twitter and Facebook) to find any potentials. They would then contact each and after a series of elimination, get a set of Council members.

You might as well outsource the job to owners/mods of fansites. Let them pick the cream of the crop and then pass it along to Nexon for review, cutting down the costs and time on their end by a significant margin. Eliminate twitter and facebook, FAR too much crap to wade through before finding any silver much less gold.

I don't honestly think there are enough dedicated people who can even make it through selection the way you make it sound and even if there are they won't be able to find replacements anywhere near as "easily" as they found the original team. Dedicated, knowledgeable, committed members are an extremely scarce depreciating resource. If you can't keep them or if you can't trust them to stay (something extremely hard to do when there is the barrier of the internet to deal with), the system falls on it's ass. Amenities and rewards are hardly a solution to this in my opinion.

Confidential matters are kept confidential, which includes game updates. Besides casual talk, information about updates, events, and so forth would be kept secret as normal.

That wasn't what i meant. That's actually the exact opposite of what i meant. The council should have literally no knowledge over other players as far as NexAMs update plans.

What i meant was would having extensive knowledge as to updates outside NexAM give leverage. It's a gauge of not only interest in the game but also dedication. Someone reading extractions for years and years while playing would certainly prove more committed to the game than someone who doesn't or someone who does but doesn't play at all.

When a member wants out, they must let their appointed nexon representative about it and their service will be concluded. They will lose access to their Council account, and the medal on their character (assuming they are given one) will be removed next maintenance.

Obvious enough.

Only matters that are assigned to a Council member or discussed in their handbook will be handled, nothing else. If there is an event taking place that is not documented there will be no action against it. This does not always mean that what is in the Terms of Service will be the same as their job, although it isn't to create any unfair advantage to getting players reported.

Again, obvious enough. You missed my point however. You basically define their handbook on your site, while here you're basically saying Nexon writes the handbook. We don't know Nexon's stance, and we already know corporate's opinion =/= GM/userbase opinion, so telling Nexon what the committee will and will not do adds to the naivete vibe that some of us are getting.

Without Nexon making a CLEAR and DIRECT stance against essentially every single issue that exists or will exist (and we all know how good they've been with that...), having the council act on the ToS will only hurt the community. For example, if the council comes to fruition without Nexon announcing a clear stance against moneypak/NX trading for in-game items, a large portion of free market vendors would be incarcerated immediately. I can go through the FM and see literally dozens of shops per world wanting this kind of transaction and it's largely in part due to the value of the meso and the fact that no safe way to trade exists. What kind of effects would that have on each server, especially among the high level community, who are consistently Nexon's highest paying market? You tell me.

It's a fair system.

I disagree if and only if the statements in the thread i linked you to are indeed reality. (and it would seem to be given complaints over past years)

Additionally just to state, kill stealing is against the Terms of Service and has always been bannable. Kill stealing falls under the category of 'restricting a player's normal gameplay or interrupting gameplay.

I implied that it wasn't even though i already knew that because, again, of the linked thread.

You asked.. "What happens when after this happens, the council sees this player again and didn't know about this policy of Nexons?"

They would still be reported. Reporting does not mean a player will be ban, it is merely alerting Nexon America of an issue. The same would go for normal players reporting them.

I meant "How would they (as a person) react?" not "What would they do?" Badly worded. The latter is obvious, the former is anything but.

It wouldn't matter if it's a Council member or anyone, if someone says anything that can harm a company they can be contacted by their PR department to remove the content and further legally. All Council members will be required to sign a non-disclosure agreement so if they say anything confidential it would be ..well, let's put it bad.

Naturally this goes without saying, but again council members shouldn't really possess information that would trip an NDA in the first place. (aside from personal information and other such things)

An allowance would be given because that's what Nexon does and it doesn't hurt to give something back to someone who is helping the community. Staff are given NX, interns are given NX, everyone who helps at Nexon is; this isn't an issue.

There's a HUGE difference between paying Nexon employees an allowance and paying Nexon gamers an allowance. One is given as an incentive to play the games they develop/monitor which they know little about, to make their experiences at the company seemingly more bearable and to thus make it easier to catch those breaking the rules by becoming familiar with the game's limits to better react to situations they wouldn't realize are fraudulent otherwise. The other needs no incentive. Being on the council in the first place means you need no incentive to play the game, to do their job.

Additionally, seems there is a mix-up, although any NX on the Council account is Decoration only. The NX given as an allowance to the Council member's main account could be spend on anything. The same goes for their staff.

Yeah it seems your suggestion is actually leagues worse than i originally thought once you clarify. It isn't unnatural to think that the council will be comprised of relatively high leveled players (they wouldn't be if they weren't dedicated, imo. High leveled/wealthy community also has more visible ties to the black market, making them better candidates in only due to those connections), and even if they weren't an allowance would likely only be spent on things that would make them money...or maybe even sold directly, which is hilariously unfair at both sides of the funding spectrum.

Also, employees of Nexon have less reason to spend their allowance on things that affect the market because they aren't dedicated players so that's why it's less of an issue.

Why would being able to teleport to any map be an issue? When teleporting the Council member is kept invisible. This would help in those cases of if a player says "Hey there's so and so doing so and so in this map!". The council member could then teleport there and check on it. If there's nothing wrong, then nothing is wrong. If there is, it'll be handled.

It would be an issue if it were given to a non-council account. But it clearly won't be.

When a player sees a GM they known that they work for Nexon America and are 'staff'. When a player sees a Council member they will know that they are more or less helpers in-game. An announcement would be made on the main site as well as in their information databases so there would not be any vagueness.

Again, missing the point. Just because GMs are the ones who actually carry out the action of banning doesn't mean everyone is going to suddenly show love for GMs (as opposed to them being a beatstick that they've been for years) if the council is the one doing all of the reporting and ramping up efficiency to clean up the game. There being an obvious difference doesn't mean the community is going to perceive it the way it's intended if the council succeeds.

Sorry if there's any odd responses to the questions, it's past midnight and had a long day. Feel free to ask anything more! :)

Same here.

[SaptaZapta]

We know that, today, not enough botters and hackers get banned.

Is that because GMs are patrolling the wrong maps?
No. It's because they are busy handling tickets, checking on forums, and doing whatever else they do.

Now, how will the Council help?
Conscientious Council member is doing her job. She's responding to player calls for help with rule-breakers, and when there are none she goes to the well-known cheater maps and tags bots and hackers. In other words, she generates a continuous stream of hack reports, most of which are legitimate (that's what she was chosen for, after all).
Which means that the Council member practically has to be followed around by a full-time GM, doing the formal ban procedure on those she tags. It doesn't matter whether the Council Member takes the video, the GM still needs to watch it to be sure it really shows hacking. So not much time is saved.

Nexon don't have the manpower to do that. If they did, those GMs could cut the middleman and go to the same maps. If they still don't know what they are, despite the stickied thread in their forums, then the "Council" could simply take the role of offline advisors. They won't need to make any in-game modifications, just a forum for people trusted to talk sense and inform Nexon of cheater maps, known boss hackers, exploits making the rounds, etc.

[Takebacker]

We know that, today, not enough botters and hackers get banned.

Is that because GMs are patrolling the wrong maps?
No. It's because they are busy handling tickets, checking on forums, and doing whatever else they do.

True that. Overlooked that bit of their job entirely.

Nexon don't have the manpower to do that. If they did, those GMs could cut the middleman and go to the same maps. If they still don't know what they are, despite the stickied thread in their forums, then the "Council" could simply take the role of offline advisors. They won't need to make any in-game modifications, just a forum for people trusted to talk sense and inform Nexon of cheater maps, known boss hackers, exploits making the rounds, etc.

I like this idea a lot. But...little difference between that and just browsing southperry on a regular basis. Lol.

[Tyler]

My concerns was more towards extra security layers and designing game items that won't generate any revenue period (directly or indirectly). Extra security is s'hitty to develop especially since this isn't a company specializing in security. This isn't something they can outsource, and given what we know about Nexon and familiarity with their systems, it would take a long time to finally get right. (of course, it would be MORE than worth it if done right but doing something right is a tall order)



Most of my response to this would be covered by what caudatus said above. Life happens, people change, etc. Nothing against wanting committed members, of course that's nice to have/want, it's just really hard to find in someone who lasts and is consistent in their work. But you know this.



You might as well outsource the job to owners/mods of fansites. Let them pick the cream of the crop and then pass it along to Nexon for review, cutting down the costs and time on their end by a significant margin. Eliminate twitter and facebook, FAR too much crap to wade through before finding any silver much less gold.

I don't honestly think there are enough dedicated people who can even make it through selection the way you make it sound and even if there are they won't be able to find replacements anywhere near as "easily" as they found the original team. Dedicated, knowledgeable, committed members are an extremely scarce depreciating resource. If you can't keep them or if you can't trust them to stay (something extremely hard to do when there is the barrier of the internet to deal with), the system falls on it's ass. Amenities and rewards are hardly a solution to this in my opinion.



That wasn't what i meant. That's actually the exact opposite of what i meant. The council should have literally no knowledge over other players as far as NexAMs update plans.

What i meant was would having extensive knowledge as to updates outside NexAM give leverage. It's a gauge of not only interest in the game but also dedication. Someone reading extractions for years and years while playing would certainly prove more committed to the game than someone who doesn't or someone who does but doesn't play at all.



Obvious enough.



Again, obvious enough. You missed my point however. You basically define their handbook on your site, while here you're basically saying Nexon writes the handbook. We don't know Nexon's stance, and we already know corporate's opinion =/= GM/userbase opinion, so telling Nexon what the committee will and will not do adds to the naivete vibe that some of us are getting.

Without Nexon making a CLEAR and DIRECT stance against essentially every single issue that exists or will exist (and we all know how good they've been with that...), having the council act on the ToS will only hurt the community. For example, if the council comes to fruition without Nexon announcing a clear stance against moneypak/NX trading for in-game items, a large portion of free market vendors would be incarcerated immediately. I can go through the FM and see literally dozens of shops per world wanting this kind of transaction and it's largely in part due to the value of the meso and the fact that no safe way to trade exists. What kind of effects would that have on each server, especially among the high level community, who are consistently Nexon's highest paying market? You tell me.



I disagree if and only if the statements in the thread i linked you to are indeed reality. (and it would seem to be given complaints over past years)



I implied that it wasn't even though i already knew that because, again, of the linked thread.



I meant "How would they (as a person) react?" not "What would they do?" Badly worded. The latter is obvious, the former is anything but.



Naturally this goes without saying, but again council members shouldn't really possess information that would trip an NDA in the first place. (aside from personal information and other such things)



There's a HUGE difference between paying Nexon employees an allowance and paying Nexon gamers an allowance. One is given as an incentive to play the games they develop/monitor which they know little about, to make their experiences at the company seemingly more bearable and to thus make it easier to catch those breaking the rules by becoming familiar with the game's limits to better react to situations they wouldn't realize are fraudulent otherwise. The other needs no incentive. Being on the council in the first place means you need no incentive to play the game, to do their job.



Yeah it seems your suggestion is actually leagues worse than i originally thought once you clarify. It isn't unnatural to think that the council will be comprised of relatively high leveled players (they wouldn't be if they weren't dedicated, imo. High leveled/wealthy community also has more visible ties to the black market, making them better candidates in only due to those connections), and even if they weren't an allowance would likely only be spent on things that would make them money...or maybe even sold directly, which is hilariously unfair at both sides of the funding spectrum.

Also, employees of Nexon have less reason to spend their allowance on things that affect the market because they aren't dedicated players so that's why it's less of an issue.



It would be an issue if it were given to a non-council account. But it clearly won't be.



Again, missing the point. Just because GMs are the ones who actually carry out the action of banning doesn't mean everyone is going to suddenly show love for GMs (as opposed to them being a beatstick that they've been for years) if the council is the one doing all of the reporting and ramping up efficiency to clean up the game. There being an obvious difference doesn't mean the community is going to perceive it the way it's intended if the council succeeds.



Same here.

All of this are great and I'll take a lot of consideration into modifying the council accordingly, thanks as always and sorry if there was any confusion or I was unclear about any of the topics. :)

[Tyler]

Hey everyone, made a lot of changes and adjustments based on a lot of your suggestions and input.

Also got almost twenty emails over the past couple weeks and added a lot of changes as well, still a lot more to go, but here's revision 2.3.

This is a large reorganization of content written for the project, as well as rewritting a large portion of the previous project with recommendations and suggestions from other players and staff.

General Changes:
- Much of the previous project has been rewritten in "Differences from MWLB", "What will be Accomplished", and "Privileges".
- Certain privileges have been removed or revised. (see below)
- There have been many concerns and questions to the medal / items given on a main account, so in regards to it; the medal given to a main account as well as any attachments has been removed.
- Any vague topics have been ..made clearer! :D
- Lie Detectors will not be used by this program and kept removed from the game.
- Changed "Nexon representative" to handler. (requested by Eos)

Privileges:
- Information about account security has been rewritten and made clearer.
- Lie Detectors will no longer be used / given to Maple Advisory Council members.
- Mounts and other in-game rewards have been removed.
- Several real life rewards have been added / suggested.
- The communication section will be revised.
- Any mentions of NX has been replaced with Maple Points (this was intended)

Disabled/Not Allowed:
- Council members will no longer have the option to add buddies.[br]This is not needed, and would lead to unintentional interruptions or take away from their work.
- Not being able to marry has been added (should be common sense).

[MissingLink]

Hey everyone, made a lot of changes and adjustments based on a lot of your suggestions and input.

Also got almost twenty emails over the past couple weeks and added a lot of changes as well, still a lot more to go, but here's revision 2.3.

I admire you effort and dedication to this project, but I have to agree with what Saptazapta said, it needs significant commitment from Nexon management to work.

I believe the GMs, Hime and others you know are probably good people who are concerned for the players and the state of the game. But they are overworked, underpayed, only have so much time, and are only allowed to do so much. The problem is the management of the company. They have a predatory, uncaring attitude towards their players (as well as their lower employees), and appear to be extremely bureaucratic and stubborn, unwilling to change anything, even policies that look ridiculous and self-destructive to us.
A few thousand innocent players get hit by glitchy one-month autobans due to server problems? Too bad, so sad. No we aren`t unbanning anyone. That`s the policy, and its not changing, ever.
(I recall reading that you personally have suffered though one or two month autobans, even with your connections. I don`t know how you can remain so supportive of such a company.)
With or without your program, they need to hire more GM's to do the work instead of relying on their worse-than-useless autoban program which ignore botters and hackers but disconnects or bans honest players. But, unless there is a night and day shift in attitude by the management, nothing is ever going to change.

[Tyler]

I admire you effort and dedication to this project, but I have to agree with what Saptazapta said, it needs significant commitment from Nexon management to work.

I believe the GMs, Hime and others you know are probably good people who are concerned for the players and the state of the game. But they are overworked, underpayed, only have so much time, and are only allowed to do so much. The problem is the management of the company. They have a predatory, uncaring attitude towards their players (as well as their lower employees), and appear to be extremely bureaucratic and stubborn, unwilling to change anything, even policies that look ridiculous and self-destructive to us.
A few thousand innocent players get hit by glitchy one-month autobans due to server problems? Too bad, so sad. No we aren`t unbanning anyone. That`s the policy, and its not changing, ever.
(I recall reading that you personally have suffered though one or two month autobans, even with your connections. I don`t know how you can remain so supportive of such a company.)
With or without your program, they need to hire more GM's to do the work instead of relying on their worse-than-useless autoban program which ignore botters and hackers but disconnects or bans honest players. But, unless there is a night and day shift in attitude by the management, nothing is ever going to change.

Seems you know me a bit more then others.

I will agree there are a lot of internal changes that have to change at Nexon to make this program work better, although as with everything in life we just have to accomplish something with what we have. I'm hopeful, whether it's a change or something traumatic causing change, that they'll improve themselves.

Like I've said before, I really hope that this will be a positive addition for Nexon and who knows.. If it is successful, it could bring in more players, meaning more revenue, meaning more staff or better pay equaling a better game. It's unlikely, but it'd be funny if the project ended up being Nexon's success. It'd defiantly improve their community and rating. :3

[KhainiWest]

I admire you effort and dedication to this project, but I have to agree with what Saptazapta said, it needs significant commitment from Nexon management to work.

I believe the GMs, Hime and others you know are probably good people who are concerned for the players and the state of the game. But they are overworked, underpayed, only have so much time, and are only allowed to do so much. The problem is the management of the company. They have a predatory, uncaring attitude towards their players (as well as their lower employees), and appear to be extremely bureaucratic and stubborn, unwilling to change anything, even policies that look ridiculous and self-destructive to us.
A few thousand innocent players get hit by glitchy one-month autobans due to server problems? Too bad, so sad. No we aren`t unbanning anyone. That`s the policy, and its not changing, ever.
(I recall reading that you personally have suffered though one or two month autobans, even with your connections. I don`t know how you can remain so supportive of such a company.)
With or without your program, they need to hire more GM's to do the work instead of relying on their worse-than-useless autoban program which ignore botters and hackers but disconnects or bans honest players. But, unless there is a night and day shift in attitude by the management, nothing is ever going to change.

I don't see how this is relevant though. As sapta at one point said, and as tyler has been trying to say, this isn't really a significant change in term of management of the game. It's removing an extra step, that is pretty significant in our game right now as these members, hopefully have a significant knowledge and can clear out the FUD, even if just the obvious.

You have to look at this at the very base, what it can do not what we expect it too. Although I do have inquiries myself about NX purchasing, money transactions, because nowadays the economy mesos are worthless. The base is simply attacking the cluster f`uck's, straightening them out and getting somewhat of a better report/action system that is a lot more efficient. I can go on right now and report you for just being a jerk, for no other reason than your character is the same color as mine. Or try to report a glitch where a scroll failed or a mastery book and the probability was in my favor therefore I deserve a refund. Reports like this exist, I've glanced over them looking at the nexon forums.

So now we could have a controlled report system where the reports are guaranteed to be relevant and reasonable. I would imagine that would save a lot of GM's overworked schedule. As you and I have read, tickets are a priority but they are flooded so all of the significant stuff get's drowned. We, by everyone who's ever played maplestory, understand the perspective of skepticism and share it, believe me. If we focus on one base block, which in this case, giving the GM's something to look at that they can take seriously, such as botters, hackers, ksers, scammers, which in the grand scheme of things isn't as big as a problem as duplicating or channel crashing, it's still a significant problem you and I can fix, in a substantial way.

In the end I can't see how this won't help out, as long as we focus on a base and not pretend we have GM status. Even if it's makes reporting for you and I more reliable, and that's a point we have to focus on.