Artistic Reputations

[FrozNlite]

And there you have it. That is why people don't view fashion as art.
Art should not be work, or not that kind of work.
The artist works, the public consumes. We view, we listen, we like or dislike, but we don't have to work on it. We are not tested on it.
When the "art" of fashion is to come up with 8 or 10 different new trends each year and then make the public work to make them fit, that's not art. That's a capricious game of "Simon says".

You're right - aspects of fashion are not art. They are work.

But does that mean ALL of fashion is not art? Is there not room for both - the work involved in creating the art, the work involved in styling it? That being said, if you are to assume this it means the only "true" art of fashion is that which we simply enjoy viewing, but not wearing, because the very act of wearing the art involves work on the part of the consumer, which therefore makes it non-art, at least according to your logic.

Which is funny, though, because the act of styling an outfit is creating a new piece of art from other pieces, therefore making your work as a consumer actually the work of an artist. Isn't that also, say, the same as consuming literature? The novel, the poem - they're pieces of art you need to work to enjoy by reading and, in some cases, analyzing for deeper understand. And viewing all forms of art from this perspective, isn't each individual form that much more enjoyable and appreciated after doing the work to become well-versed in their creation to more deeply understand them?

These are all just thoughts within this discussion, and I'm curious what everyone has to say.

[SaptaZapta]

You're right - aspects of fashion are not art. They are work.

But does that mean ALL of fashion is not art? Is there not room for both - the work involved in creating the art, the work involved in styling it? That being said, if you are to assume this it means the only "true" art of fashion is that which we simply enjoy viewing, but not wearing, because the very act of wearing the art involves work on the part of the consumer, which therefore makes it non-art, at least according to your logic.

Which is funny, though, because the act of styling an outfit is creating a new piece of art from other pieces, therefore making your work as a consumer actually the work of an artist. Isn't that also, say, the same as consuming literature? The novel, the poem - they're pieces of art you need to work to enjoy by reading and, in some cases, analyzing for deeper understand. And viewing all forms of art from this perspective, isn't each individual form that much more enjoyable and appreciated after doing the work to become well-versed in their creation to more deeply understand them?

These are all just thoughts within this discussion, and I'm curious what everyone has to say.

Reading a book and putting together an outfit are entirely different levels of work.
The book is there, start to end. I don't need to hunt down pieces on eBay, I don't have to wonder whether the pieces I put together will looks as good to others (especially the "fashion police") as they do to me. And most importantly, I don't have to read any books at all. Nobody is going to judge me on that, certainly not on first glance. And if I do read books, the ones that are held in high regard by the "literacy police" don't change much, year to year. I don't have to change my tastes every season according to random dictates.

I can listen to any new music that comes out without having to mix it myself out of separate random tracks I hunt down in different shops and online sources. Some people enjoy doing mixes, for themselves or to resell. But most of the public just listens to fully-put-together songs.
Why can't fashion be like that? Truly pret a porter? Why is it up to each and every consumer to be an artist? Why must we solve a new puzzle every season, spending time and money to collect the pieces? If you enjoy it, more power to you. But I don't.

[Sardines]

I feel like I'm the only person who has no idea what is going on in this thread.

[Miek]

I think some people are taking this "season" deal too seriously. As FrozNlite said, you really don't need to abide by the trends set by crazy fashion houses. Just wear what you want. Runways are a huge exaggeration of styles (for the most part) so you can take certain pieces or do-it-yourself stuff. For example a 2012 men's trend was Paint Splatter:

Spoiler

(James Long Menswear - Spring/Summer 2011)
It looks as if somebody barfed a crayon orgy onto clothing.


(Jean Paul Gaultier/Dries Van Noten - Spring/Summer 2011)
some reference
here we see it more refined, and you should get the idea that usually trends start off from the fashion houses -> catalyst (usually celebrities) -> mass market (commercial)

I mean I don't know about you but a simple button up with a modicum of blotches/splatter looks really interesting to me and I would totally incorporate that into my wardrobe.

-button up with splatter (get dye, use an old possibly stained buttoned up shirt)
-black blazer (can be found in almost every thift store for friggin 'cheap)
-chinos (thift stores, may be more expensive but easy to find)
-shoes (wear whatever you may have, chinos work with almost every shoe...)



Once again you may not like it, but this is just my example of trying out a trend and incorporating it into a very simple look.

It's 4 piece outfit that implements the trend "Paint splatter" which brings me to my next point. "Well I don't have the money to buy designer clothing, or clothing in general i'd rather spend it on other things"

You can easily do-it-yourself and have any look you want on a low ass budget. I personally would never spend more than 10 dollar on any top (bottoms/shoes are more important to me in terms of comfort so I shell out more on that). All the blazers and outwear I have have been gotten from thrift stores are for no more than $5.

and yes you may want to spend it on other stuff than this, fair enough. I just think it comes to personal preference. I just see the whole styling and fashion as a multi layered (lol!) art form!

I also think people need to understand there are HUNDREDS upon HUNDREDS companies pumping out ready to wear (pret-a-porter) every season, and tend to only highlight ridiculous and extreme examples of trends (clothes that look impossible to pull off without the silhouette of a chopstick) If you truly look into fashion, get past the stupid brand wars, stereotype and just think about it from a different perspective you'll be able to appreciate fashion so much more.

Get inspired! take notice and try it yourself!

[FrozNlite]

Everything @Miek said is what I'm trying to say, especially his examples of both styling an outfit and the prices of creating a wardrobe.

That being said, I understand that people don't like to put together outfits. That's fine. You don't need to look trendy at any point if you don't want to - hell, that hasn't even been what I've been arguing about. I'm literally arguing about looking put together, which can happen for, as Miek said, ass cheap and with much less effort than looking in style. It means, say, wearing a tee shirt that FITS as opposed to one that's a size or two too big (a pandemic issue among men), or knowing that anything that cinches at the waist, like a big belt or the belt of a basic trench coat, will flatter short, curvy types.

Again, all of this information can be found with a simple Google search, which is ironically the same thing people say to others in online forum debates about other topics when someone comes in saying something that could be easily researched. So why is it such a big pineappleing deal with fashion? Like Miek said and I like I underscored at the beginning of this post, it's absolutely fine if you DON'T want to partake in all the rage of a season's trends. The Gap, among many other stores, are bastions of the "timeless basics" that cement any ensemble, and you can look put-together super well with them alone if you'd like.

We all have to buy clothes. Why is it such a big hassle frustration deal to reach for the small shirt that actually fits you as opposed to the medium yet asking some rando online to Google something for a discussion is a social expectation?

[SaptaZapta]

Because what you call a size too big is what I call comfortable?

As for fitting the trends etc: in your earlier posts you were talking as if someone not doing so would be judged as unkempt and unable to get a job, or a date, or any decent human interaction.
If wearing a T-shirt and "timeless" Gap jeans is fine in your book, then cool. It's definitely not art though. It's utilitarian.

[Miek]

...
If wearing a T-shirt and "timeless" Gap jeans is fine in your book, then cool. It's definitely not art though. It's utilitarian.

That logic can be applied to any other form of art. You furnish/paint your walls a certain way, it may be for utility, but you could make it trendy. Now I'm not saying put embellished kitschy hipster art installations in your house. But just like fashion if you choose to not style your home a certain way, then cool. It CAN be an art, if you let it.

Art is simply the visual appealing result of a creative mind.

Spoiler

You can draw stick figures to evoke and get an idea across
or take it up a notch:


You can make a commercial building with the most conventional structure
or integrate innovative and interesting


You can choose to wear a T and jeans
or dress your look to express your personality

Fashion is an art just like any other, period.

I encourage anyone to look at famed fashion photographer Nick Knight
You don't need to wear the things he portrays but it's an art. Art is ever inspirational, I don't know about you but that is valuable to me.

[SaptaZapta]

Yes. I guess I wasn't clear on that. Certainly there is fashion art.
However, contrary to what FrozNLite said earlier, not every single person has to be a fashion artist to look acceptable.

The initial question was, "why do people respect fashion art less than other art?" and the simple answer is: it's capricious, and it's oppressive.

Capricious:
It seems entirely random every new season.
Unlike, say, music, where you can hear the trends evolve from each other (and your own taste can change gradually along with them), fashion's trends for this season are unrelated to the last one.
And crazy runway fashion seems like some sort of contest of "how absurd can you make a model look?"
Perhaps paradoxically, too much creativity makes art appear too frivolous to be respectable.

Oppressive:
The feel the public gets, justified or not, that the new trends are dictates we must adhere to or be denounced as "sooo last year!"

[Miek]

Yes. I guess I wasn't clear on that. Certainly there is fashion art.
However, contrary to what FrozNLite said earlier, not every single person has to be a fashion artist to look acceptable.

The initial question was, "why do people respect fashion art less than other art?" and the simple answer is: it's capricious, and it's oppressive.

Capricious:
It seems entirely random every new season.
Unlike, say, music, where you can hear the trends evolve from each other (and your own taste can change gradually along with them), fashion's trends for this season are unrelated to the last one.
And crazy runway fashion seems like some sort of contest of "how absurd can you make a model look?"
Perhaps paradoxically, too much creativity makes art appear too frivolous to be respectable.

Oppressive:
The feel the public gets, justified or not, that the new trends are dictates we must adhere to or be denounced as "sooo last year!"

Once again I just have to say, you can't take those runways too seriously, take it with a grain of salt. Those are just forecasts of whats to come later down in the road. Some people like it, and it becomes a trend. Some people don't catch onto it, and it never becomes a trend. So because of ignorance, people don't deem fashion as much of a credible art form.

Only the extreme side (which is a very small portion of people) follow them religiously/have the money and live in the moment to buy those garments. Style really is forever, and it's up to you to decide on what you want to wear on a daily basis. Having to dress for certain occasion is a different matter (you can still add certain flare to your outfit, but things like a suit to a wedding is just proper). It's only oppressive if you let it.

I can see where FrozNlite is coming from, I truly believe if people wore clothes that fit them, you will feel so much more comfortable and better about yourself. I used to wear shirts too big for myself, but when I started to actually find clothes that fit me right that's just how it is from now on. Once again it's all preference, if you really don't give a crap and are too stubborn to try it out then so be it.

* don't have time to over look what i typed haha. off to work, like right now!

[SaptaZapta]

I can see where FrozNlite is coming from, I truly believe if people wore clothes that fit them, you will feel so much more comfortable and better about yourself. I used to wear shirts too big for myself, but when I started to actually find clothes that fit me right that's just how it is from now on. Once again it's all preference, if you really don't give a crap and are too stubborn to try it out then so be it.

I have tried it. Skintight shirts feel hot and sweaty, not comfortable at all. They also make me selfconscious. (Yes, I'm "too lazy" to eat right and work out, so I can look good in skintight clothing).
And before you say it's only the self-consciousness making me feel uncomfortable - no. Even for "clothes to wear around the house", where nobody sees me but my children, and I am not self-conscious in the least, I prefer my clothing loose and airy.

[Miek]

I have tried it. Skintight shirts feel hot and sweaty, not comfortable at all. They also make me selfconscious. (Yes, I'm "too lazy" to eat right and work out, so I can look good in skintight clothing).
And before you say it's only the self-consciousness making me feel uncomfortable - no. Even for "clothes to wear around the house", where nobody sees me but my children, and I am not self-conscious in the least, I prefer my clothing loose and airy.

Chances are, whatever you're wearing now fits you then! It's all about comfort at an expendable price. I just hope people realize there is more to fashion (and art in general) than business, popularity, hierarchy, social status etc. and that it is an art form. Maybe something you don't necessarily like, and that's fine.

[Moonlapse]

I feel like I'm the only person who has no idea what is going on in this thread.

Same here. My science brain can't comprehend art and fashion. :(