Am I the only one who tries to play as "legit" as possible?

[Saphien]

And I would say that you're not looking at the whole picture by making it that simple, or that you may have come to this assessment due to convenience alone.

Convenience is a part of it. What you're failing to see is that attempting to draw the line in a hypothetical grey area is a waste of time and effort.

You're comparing tainted mesos, which are nearly impossible to distinguish, to tainted items which are usually easily possible to distinguish.

If the transaction is made through a Permit in the Free Market, it is impossible to distinguish even on Nexon's part.

What of items? Are you willing to be so bold as to say that no one will ever make a 20 attack Raccoon Mask through accessory scrolls for attack and chaos scrolls? How is it 'easilly possible to distinguish' for items that aren't nametagged?

See above. And what non-cheaters are doing is not handicapping themselves but rather trying to fix things wrong with the game in whatever way they can. It is the cheaters and the apathetic who are handicapping themselves, everyone else, and the game by not worrying about what is 'legit' and what isn't.

To claim that 'non-cheaters', as you call them, are fixing the game is complete nonsense. The petty boycotting of items and whatever else is directly handicapping themselves, and claiming otherwise is foolish.

You should get off your imaginary high-ground pedestal and realize that the only ones who can 'fix' the game are at Nexon. I will boldly say what you believe is legitimate is wrong; that chances are, no one here is legitimate unless there is a wiping of the account databases.

Once again, old cliche of trying to put everyone into the same illegit boat is old and easily disproven and unjustified.

What you've done has not disproven anything. The only unjustified thing being done here in this thread is the pinning of the definitions of 'legitimacy' upon others.

Recently, there have been public announcements of permanent bans for hackers at popular training locations such as Lion King's Castle; have you seen the people who leech off the hackers get banned? In the eyes of those who distribute the bans, there is no 'legitimate' or 'illegitimate'; there are 'hackers' and 'not hackers'.

[KhainiWest]

If the transaction is made through a Permit in the Free Market, it is impossible to distinguish even on Nexon's part.

Not true, it's been done.

What of items? Are you willing to be so bold as to say that no one will ever make a 20 attack Raccoon Mask through accessory scrolls for attack and chaos scrolls? How is it 'easilly possible to distinguish' for items that aren't nametagged?

..So because one maybe legitimate means everyone else get's a mulligan? I'm pretty sure in life they assume the worse not the better and deal with the people to fight it on their terms. Just experience on my part.

To claim that 'non-cheaters', as you call them, are fixing the game is complete nonsense. The petty boycotting of items and whatever else is directly handicapping themselves, and claiming otherwise is foolish.

If you continue to buy the product, they will continue to produce it. The reason that it's so rapent is because the game is full of children trying to get their 10 minutes of fame. They want power and they are too insecure/impatient to work for it, so they buy it.

You should get off your imaginary high-ground pedestal and realize that the only ones who can 'fix' the game are at Nexon. I will boldly say what you believe is legitimate is wrong; that chances are, no one here is legitimate unless there is a wiping of the account databases.

It takes the people within the game to tell nexon where the problem is. Nexon doesn't know their game as well as you apparently think they do. They are really dependent on the reports on the forums/tickets. By not participating you discourage people from trying and find the risk does not outweigh the reward.

Mind you there is only one definition of legitimate, how much integrity the player risks is entirely up to the player judging them. But frankly you lose that right to judge anyone if you cheat. It's just that simple, if you buy duped gear, you're at risk of a ban or removal of the said gear. You lose that credibility to complain how so and so is a jerk because he cheats. Other than that it really doesn't matter.

Recently, there have been public announcements of permanent bans for hackers at popular training locations such as Lion King's Castle; have you seen the people who leech off the hackers get banned? In the eyes of those who distribute the bans, there is no 'legitimate' or 'illegitimate'; there are 'hackers' and 'not hackers'.

Bull sh`it, people got banned for leeching off hackers all the time, including looting. If you participate you get banned, it's in the TOS for crying out loud.

[Saphien]

Not true, it's been done.

Until recently, those transactions were not documented.

..So because one maybe legitimate means everyone else get's a mulligan? I'm pretty sure in life they assume the worse not the better and deal with the people to fight it on their terms. Just experience on my part.

I'm not sure what experiences you've had, but I'm fairly certain that in the court of law, one is innocent until proven guilty; the burden of proof lies on the accuser.

If you continue to buy the product, they will continue to produce it. The reason that it's so rapent is because the game is full of children trying to get their 10 minutes of fame. They want power and they are too insecure/impatient to work for it, so they buy it.

This is often the result of lack of alternatives. When the 'non-cheaters' fail to create a reasonable alternative to a 30 attack mask, do you expect people to use nothing? When there is no punishment for being 'insecure/impatient', of course these 'children' will go for it.

It takes the people within the game to tell nexon where the problem is. Nexon doesn't know their game as well as you apparently think they do. They are really dependent on the reports on the forums/tickets. By not participating you discourage people from trying and find the risk does not outweigh the reward.

When it comes to their heads of development and talking heads, I would agree that they know nothing of the game. However, there are people within the company who play the game, who can provide feedback. These people know more about the game than a majority of these forums, easily.

Mind you there is only one definition of legitimate, how much integrity the player risks is entirely up to the player judging them. But frankly you lose that right to judge anyone if you cheat. It's just that simple, if you buy duped gear, you're at risk of a ban or removal of the said gear. You lose that credibility to complain how so and so is a jerk because he cheats. Other than that it really doesn't matter.

You're absolutely right about there being only one definition of legitimate. Are you going to tell me that you have followed the EULA to the letter? If not, then you have lost the right to judge everyone else, as well.

Bull sh`it, people got banned for leeching off hackers all the time, including looting. If you participate you get banned, it's in the TOS for crying out loud.

This used to be the case; however, as of late, it is obvious that leeching off hackers would not get you banned. If you take a look at everyone who has leeched off a Battle Mage hacker at Crockies, or a Jett hacker at Aliens, or whatever: You will see that these people are still around. Every single one of them should be banned, but aren't.

[IImaplers]

Not true, it's been done.



..So because one maybe legitimate means everyone else get's a mulligan? I'm pretty sure in life they assume the worse not the better and deal with the people to fight it on their terms. Just experience on my part.




If you continue to buy the product, they will continue to produce it. The reason that it's so rapent is because the game is full of children trying to get their 10 minutes of fame. They want power and they are too insecure/impatient to work for it, so they buy it.



It takes the people within the game to tell nexon where the problem is. Nexon doesn't know their game as well as you apparently think they do. They are really dependent on the reports on the forums/tickets. By not participating you discourage people from trying and find the risk does not outweigh the reward.

Mind you there is only one definition of legitimate, how much integrity the player risks is entirely up to the player judging them. But frankly you lose that right to judge anyone if you cheat. It's just that simple, if you buy duped gear, you're at risk of a ban or removal of the said gear. You lose that credibility to complain how so and so is a jerk because he cheats. Other than that it really doesn't matter.



Bull sh`it, people got banned for leeching off hackers all the time, including looting. If you participate you get banned, it's in the TOS for crying out loud.

Took the words outta my mouth. I laugh at how people try to justify the use of exploited items with some cacamany 'complications' that they've constructed out of their ass. Fact is, if you knowingly use exploited/duped items, you are tenfold less legit than someone who doesn't, so stop trying to desperately lower the non-cheaters' credibility to your own. You'd have way more respect from the non-cheaters as long as you're honest about it.

[KhainiWest]

Until recently, those transactions were not documented.

"Recently" as in a 2 years ago? Where do you think hellban came from.

I'm not sure what experiences you've had, but I'm fairly certain that in the court of law, one is innocent until proven guilty; the burden of proof lies on the accuser.

Wanna talk about law huh, let's talk law! By IRS' terms its the taxpayers responsibility to show documentation. The IRS nor any state agency will send you a letter saying "You owe us money, here's why". You have to show them why they are wrong. You have a right to an appeal, but an officer can still throw your ass in jail on bail depending on the crime. Just like nexon could ban you and ask you to prove or provide sufficient evidence that you aren't guilty.

This is often the result of lack of alternatives. When the 'non-cheaters' fail to create a reasonable alternative to a 30 attack mask, do you expect people to use nothing? When there is no punishment for being 'insecure/impatient', of course these 'children' will go for it.

Yes. By the TOS they are. If you want to bring up big unreasonable comparison's, what's the alternative to weed? To alcohol or other big name drugs? What 'alternatives' do I have to get that feeling of relaxation or rush, the same way weed or cocaine does? Guess that means I get to have it.

When it comes to their heads of development and talking heads, I would agree that they know nothing of the game. However, there are people within the company who play the game, who can provide feedback. These people know more about the game than a majority of these forums, easily.

Demonstrations by hime is by no means "playable" and we're talking a very very thin sheet of ice here. I'm sure most people won't admit they actually play as the interview process asks if you do play nexon games. It's discouraged out of fear of less than wanted intentions. It's been discussed before, it's a double edge sword, but it's there none the less.

You're absolutely right about there being only one definition of legitimate. Are you going to tell me that you have followed the EULA to the letter? If not, then you have lost the right to judge everyone else, as well.

I never denied that, nor do I judge people with such pettyness. I can judge a person on their attitude, their mannerism's and their actions. I can't judge him on how plays the game because I'm not legitimate in that regard, regard being the definition.

This used to be the case; however, as of late, it is obvious that leeching off hackers would not get you banned. If you take a look at everyone who has leeched off a Battle Mage hacker at Crockies, or a Jett hacker at Aliens, or whatever: You will see that these people are still around. Every single one of them should be banned, but aren't.

I can't speak for the company but I think everyone can agree nexon has a tendency to take action a little late. I'll go with the reasonable assumption these players will eventually be delt with based off past action's of new worlds/classes and the top 10 evidently being banned eventually.

[Saphien]

Heading off for a bit, but some more devil's advocate here:

- I'm pretty sure what I'm talking about is a lot more recent than two years; /trade isn't the same as setting up a store permit.
- IRS is an exception to the common-law, and there have been confrontations from congressmen such as Ron Paul.
- If there was an alternative for weed, it wouldn't be so popular; it's the same with duped items.
- The presentation for Azwan by Waltzing and Hime made me cry.
- There are highly ranked Phantoms who will be investigated, but it's highly unlikely that anyone you see leeching at Crockies today will be banned.