Nexon America Inc. v. Ryan Michael Cornwall

[Phoenix]

What significance does the delaware office even have?

Tax reasons probably.

[VerrKol]

Wow that was horribly boring. I'm sure the actual court transcripts (if they're available? dunno about this stuff) in the future will be much more interesting. Beyond all of the jargon.

I thought it was interesting, excepting the copy+paste stuff, and had remarkably little jargon... Guess I'm just weird

The affirmative defense arguments are the only really important thing in there. Some interesting stuff if you're the curious about copy right law, although all the "fair use" stuff is a definite stretch. No doubt many of Nexon's accusations will be thrown out, but there's still more that enough to close down the websites and probably have these people in debt for the rest of their lives.

Two things I look forward to learning:
1. How much has "hacking" cost Nexon?
2. Who is Bizzaro?

Guess I'm still interested in copyright law after all, because this is definitely a worthwhile read

[Leaves]

Well, the court transcripts really won't do much since there won't really be any (most likely) :P

Correct me if I'm wrong, but has any defendant in a Nexon case actually testified in-person, in a court? I have not heard anything about such an event. Usually the cases haven't actually gotten to that point, whether it be due to deafult judgement or still being pending.

[VerrKol]

@Leaves;

Request to postpone court till Wednesday, June 6, 2012.

No courtroom appearances so far

[Leaves]

@Leaves;


No courtroom appearances so far

Yeah, but not just in this case. In all Nexon cases that I've come across.

[Killed]

I thought it was interesting, excepting the copy+paste stuff, and had remarkably little jargon... Guess I'm just weird

The affirmative defense arguments are the only really important thing in there. Some interesting stuff if you're the curious about copy right law, although all the "fair use" stuff is a definite stretch. No doubt many of Nexon's accusations will be thrown out, but there's still more that enough to close down the websites and probably have these people in debt for the rest of their lives.

Two things I look forward to learning:
1. How much has "hacking" cost Nexon?
2. Who is Bizzaro?

Guess I'm still interested in copyright law after all, because this is definitely a worthwhile read

If anything, hacking has made Nexon money. The only kind of hacking that would possibly cause them to lose money would be channel crashing/server crashing, both being unrelated to that website and Riukuzaki.
Bizarro is the coder of BT, the trainer itself as I'm sure you know. I think he basically codes the trainer and bypasses. Most of the hacks that are implemented into it are found by a couple other people. I believe he used to go by Xentare back in the CEF days.

[VerrKol]

If anything, hacking has made Nexon money. The only kind of hacking that would possibly cause them to lose money would be channel crashing/server crashing, both being unrelated to that website and Riukuzaki.
Bizarro is the coder of BT, the trainer itself as I'm sure you know. I think he basically codes the trainer and bypasses. Most of the hacks that are implemented into it are found by a couple other people. I believe he used to go by Xentare back in the CEF days.

I think whether Nexon lost money or not is certainly up for debate. Many transactions made through real life currencies instead of NX cost Nexon as well as the profileration of things like protection and safety/white scrolls which pretty much preclude purchase of their their NX counterparts. To better clarify, how much does Nexon think they lost?

I meant who he is irl. Obviously Bizarro coded Bizarro Trainer and other hacks...

[Marksman Bryan]

Nexon says (in one of those documents) that hacking has cost tens to hundreds of millions in losses.

Seems a tad exaggerated.

[Foxino]

If anything, hacking has made Nexon money. The only kind of hacking that would possibly cause them to lose money would be channel crashing/server crashing, both being unrelated to that website and Riukuzaki.
Bizarro is the coder of BT, the trainer itself as I'm sure you know. I think he basically codes the trainer and bypasses. Most of the hacks that are implemented into it are found by a couple other people. I believe he used to go by Xentare back in the CEF days.

I don't know about that. True it does open a source of income however players do leave the game because of what hackers have done to it.. Also sites such as these sell nx at cheaper rates than nexon.. I'm sure that has to hurt their income a bit?

[Rains]

Although I have no doubt that duping costs nexon a sizable sum of money, I don't believe that the defendants can be held responsible for it. The closest thing that they do would be coding hack shield bypasses that allow exploiters to view packet structures, functions, etc, and then edit these packets to exploit various areas of the game.
I see it more as a kitchen knife that is only a murder weapon in the hands of the murderer.
Therefore, while botting may cause nexon to lose some money, it is nowhere near the amount that they claim.

[ThatWasMyKil]

drawn by @ShanghaiDizzy

[Killed]

I don't know about that. True it does open a source of income however players do leave the game because of what hackers have done to it.. Also sites such as these sell nx at cheaper rates than nexon.. I'm sure that has to hurt their income a bit?

Over the past 1-2 years, the hacking population has increased while you could say the 'legit' population decreased. It's like having 50 apples on each side of a fence, if you take half the apples from one side and move them to the other, you still have the same total amount. I'm sure there are some people who have indeed quit the game entirely over the past year or so, but who's to say it's because of hackers? Personally, the only reason I don't play this game anymore is because of the content, all of the changes Nexon has made to the game, making it a game where you're almost forced to do stuff alone and anything done in parties is either completely pointless or glitched/impossible to complete, and because of how much more of an NX-elitist based game it's become. I guarantee most players who have previously quit, quit for the same reason.

As for the selling NX, that NX doesn't just appear from thin air as there is no such thing as a NX spawning exploit (item spawning is another story). It's had to have been purchased by someone and charged to their account sometime where it then becomes entangled in the mess that is the MTS. The only reason it's at a lower rate on some sites is because of people being able to sell mass amount of equips they didn't pay for, and then they come into mass amounts of NX in which they sell at a cheap rate because no matter the rate, they're going to profit.

[byakugan]

If anything, hacking has made Nexon money. The only kind of hacking that would possibly cause them to lose money would be channel crashing/server crashing, both being unrelated to that website and Riukuzaki.
Bizarro is the coder of BT, the trainer itself as I'm sure you know. I think he basically codes the trainer and bypasses. Most of the hacks that are implemented into it are found by a couple other people. I believe he used to go by Xentare back in the CEF days.

Objection !.

It might have accelerated their income rate very fast in a short time but it's burnt down the game itself in the process. That can be evidenciated in the current state of the game. Unless they take some extreme measurements the damage might be done for good.

[Killed]

Objection !.

It might have accelerated their income rate very fast in a short time but it's burnt down the game itself in the process. That can be evidenciated in the current state of the game. Unless they take some extreme measurements the damage might be done for good.

How can any one person tell the exact reason behind why the game is how it is now? It could be Nexon's poor customer service, it could be botters, it could be exploiters, it could be how much NX has to be spent to be "elite", it could be any number of things.

[KhainiWest]

Objection !.

It might have accelerated their income rate very fast in a short time but it's burnt down the game itself in the process. That can be evidenciated in the current state of the game. Unless they take some extreme measurements the damage might be done for good.

That's kind of how they do things themselves isnt it? Pam songs for example were seasonal when I played, along with vega scrolls.

[VerrKol]

Although I have no doubt that duping costs nexon a sizable sum of money, I don't believe that the defendants can be held responsible for it. The closest thing that they do would be coding hack shield bypasses that allow exploiters to view packet structures, functions, etc, and then edit these packets to exploit various areas of the game.
I see it more as a kitchen knife that is only a murder weapon in the hands of the murderer.
Therefore, while botting may cause nexon to lose some money, it is nowhere near the amount that they claim.

The defendants, or at least some of them, created the methods which allowed duping. How can they not be held responsible for the abilities which they clearly intended? To borrow your metaphor, this isn't a kitchen knife that can be used for something mundane like cooking, it is a AK-47 designed to kill. In theory, it could be used as a physics experiment for purely academic research that harms no one, but that isn't what it's purpose is. The bypasses, injectors, etc. where intended for and successful in allowing hacking activities which cost Nexon revenue. The defendants are legally responsible for the easily foreseen and intended consequences of their actions. Sure, Nexon probably inflated the amount lost to the maximum they can get away with, but that hardly means they didn't lose significant revenue. Since there isn't even a specified amount in the documents (that I recall), I don't see how it can automatically be outrageously high anyway.

@Killed; I'm sure there are many reasons unrelated to hackers that caused Nexon to lose players. I can personally say that I quit buying NX ~2years ago primarily because of hacking related problems, although not exclusively because of them. I personally know people who quit or refuse to buy NX because of it. I can't say what percentage of the population or revenue Nexon lost, but they certainly lost something and I would guess (an educated guess I hope) that it is a significant portion of their income.

As for the selling NX, that NX doesn't just appear from thin air as there is no such thing as a NX spawning exploit (item spawning is another story). It's had to have been purchased by someone and charged to their account sometime where it then becomes entangled in the mess that is the MTS.

The NX was purchased by someone somewhen, but that isn't the point. The point is how much NX was purchased versus how much would have been purchased. Even with the NX taxes in the MTS, some of the NX has been floating around for quite some time and the availability of purchasing NX at discount rates directly decreases Nexon's revenue. If people are buying NX from hackers, they clearly aren't buying it from Nexon as they would have been otherwise.

I don't think many people are going to argue that it's all the hackers' fault. Nexon has certainly pineappleed up the game many times all by itself for all kinds of reasons. That does not mean that hackers didn't make it worse or that getting rid of them (if this is even possible) wouldn't make the game better.

[Eos]

The NX was purchased by someone somewhen, but that isn't the point. The point is how much NX was purchased versus how much would have been purchased.

I'm a good example of this. I spent thousands on NX when I actively played, but since the repeated hackings and the theft of my charged NX via MTS I simply refuse to charge any more. In the past two years or so Nexon's refusal to address my issues, or even look at my tickets, has cost them at least some amount of profit, and realistically I have to be representative of at least a percentage of their playerbase.

There's no reason to charge NX for things that will either A) be taken away from me B) won't give me any advantages that a hacker can't get for free C) won't even let me compete with the things other players can do illegitimately.

If it's no fun to play, there's no reason to pay.

[KhainiWest]

I'm a good example of this. I spent thousands on NX when I actively played, but since the repeated hackings and the theft of my charged NX via MTS I simply refuse to charge any more. In the past two years or so Nexon's refusal to address my issues, or even look at my tickets, has cost them at least some amount of profit, and realistically I have to be representative of at least a percentage of their playerbase.

There's no reason to charge NX for things that will either A) be taken away from me B) won't give me any advantages that a hacker can't get for free C) won't even let me compete with the things other players can do illegitimately.

If it's no fun to play, there's no reason to pay.

Wow and all yesterday during that thread about empress I thought I was the only one who understood that concept. THANK YOU FOR RESTORING MY FAITH IN HUMANITY.

[happylight]

The defendants, or at least some of them, created the methods which allowed duping. How can they not be held responsible for the abilities which they clearly intended? To borrow your metaphor, this isn't a kitchen knife that can be used for something mundane like cooking, it is a AK-47 designed to kill. In theory, it could be used as a physics experiment for purely academic research that harms no one, but that isn't what it's purpose is. The bypasses, injectors, etc. where intended for and successful in allowing hacking activities which cost Nexon revenue. The defendants are legally responsible for the easily foreseen and intended consequences of their actions. Sure, Nexon probably inflated the amount lost to the maximum they can get away with, but that hardly means they didn't lose significant revenue. Since there isn't even a specified amount in the documents (that I recall), I don't see how it can automatically be outrageously high anyway.

The sellers and makers of AK-47 aren't guilty of any crime when someone kills with their gun. The killer is.
If I opened a McDonald's right next to a Burger King I clearly intended to take away some of their revenue. That's not illegal either.
Last I checked, selling The Anarchist Cookbook which teaches people how to make explosives isn't illegal either.

[The Great One]

I'm a good example of this. I spent thousands on NX when I actively played, but since the repeated hackings and the theft of my charged NX via MTS I simply refuse to charge any more. In the past two years or so Nexon's refusal to address my issues, or even look at my tickets, has cost them at least some amount of profit, and realistically I have to be representative of at least a percentage of their playerbase.

There's no reason to charge NX for things that will either A) be taken away from me B) won't give me any advantages that a hacker can't get for free C) won't even let me compete with the things other players can do illegitimately.

If it's no fun to play, there's no reason to pay.

Why in all hell are you even trying to compete with people who are cheating and breaking the rules. Your other. points of valid but you and west must of bumped your heads somewhere. Unless competing with every single person in the game cheating or not is "fun" for you.

@above those things aren't copyrighted for one if you open that mcdonald's all is well if you open it and have BK's items on the menu we have a problem.