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  1. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    It wouldn't unlock the accounts. To unlock locked accounts, you need the entire server to crash, meaning mushies reset, HT 30 man list thing gets reset, everything. Mushies aren't disconnecting which means its just immense amount of lag causing players to disconnect. The save cycle should get reduced though, that's the best way to prevent any duping at all, and right now its around 5 minutes I believe, which is plenty of time to do whatever you need.

  2. Water Gay Male
    IGN: Scenarey
    Server: Arcania
    Level: 146
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: Destiny
    Alliance: Providence
    canada

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Easier said than done. Every one of those saves uses enormous resources. There is a reason why the game doesn't save every second :P

  3. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    I'm not saying to make it so it saves every second, but honestly thats one of the two ways to even stop duping in general. That+item IDs

  4. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    They already have item IDs. They're not using them.

    Not actually true.
    It doesn't have to save every second either, just every transaction, and it needs to handle every transaction as a discrete unit, not individual parts that can be interrupted.

    If it did that it wouldn't have to save every second, or every transaction, it could save on quit and not risk duping anything, it'd just risk data loss, not data duplication. That's the entire point of ACID design.

  5. Water Gay Male
    IGN: Scenarey
    Server: Arcania
    Level: 146
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: Destiny
    Alliance: Providence
    canada

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    I'm assuming that 5 minutes was determined to be optimal in terms of cost & efficiency considerations, so I don't think they can/want to change that. It's actually pretty decent, I wouldn't expect it to be much lower than that anyway. Not for the massive amount of data getting saved.

    I think they will eventually realize that they need to address duping head-on. Item IDs need to happen :(

    My only concern here is that this would involve a complete re-design of the save system. While this method is far superior to the current, it isn't very achievable (considering how much Nexon LOVES change).

    The Item IDs, while still a major revamp, would seem to be easier to implement. I don't think any other major issues (besides duping) arise from the current save method. Aside from the fact that it doesn't make sense from a logical perspective, I think the current method doesn't raise so many concerns that it'd be worth scrapping altogether.

    It's pretty fascinating how the game has never actually gotten a major structural overhaul, considering how old it is.

  6. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    SC tomorrow at 10 AM EST, it seems.

  7. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    OT: Nexon announced SC in game for 7 AM PST. No notice on site yet.

  8. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Yet again; The item IDs already exist and always have.
    Adding them if they didn't exist is far more invasive than adding a transaction declaration at the begin and end of the save process.

    You're at a handicap here if you don't understand the client server relationship or their database architecture so you should probably stop trying to explain how best to fix the situation.

  9. Proton Gay Male
    IGN: Nordici / Conhur
    Server: Windia
    Level: 200
    Job: Paladin/Kaiser
    Guild: Virtual / Prelude
    New_York

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Seriously? Why not just take down the servers now T_T

  10. Water Gay Male
    IGN: Scenarey
    Server: Arcania
    Level: 146
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: Destiny
    Alliance: Providence
    canada

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Whether unique item ids exist or not is irrelevant by itself. When I say item IDs, I'm clearly referring to the existence of a check that verifies that there are no duplicates. I assume this check is not in place, or is otherwise not functioning properly, which is the only valid explanation as to why these dupes are occurring (assuming they occur in the way previously described in this thread).

    As for the transactions... neither of us really know the full specifics of the client-server relationship in this case, nor how structural changes may affect different systems already in place. I'm sure you have more experience with this than I do, but at the end of the day this is all just speculation.

    It's fun, nonetheless :)

    People wanna go home / waiting for Korea / etc. etc.?

  11. GLADIGATORS
    IGN: Overburnd
    Server: Khaini
    Level: 210
    Job: Cannoneer
    Guild: Contagious
    usa

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    You realize he's a pro DBA, right?

  12. Water Gay Male
    IGN: Scenarey
    Server: Arcania
    Level: 146
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: Destiny
    Alliance: Providence
    canada

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Incase I was not clear... I'm fully aware that Eos' guess is a highly educated one due to his experience and knowledge, but the reality is that we do not know the specifics under which Nexon operates their servers, nor their database architecture. We've gotten some glimpses through the DB leak & general info from here and there, but nothing is ever for certain. Do you wanna debate that?

  13. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Let me put it to you this way

    You have two options:
    1) Every time an object comes into existence, you scan every single other object in existence, across hundreds of billions of them, to detect ID collision.
    or
    2) You don't commit saves until all steps of the save process have completed successfully, and if any point of it fails, you rollback the entire operation.

    Which of those is more painful to do hundreds of thousands of times a minute?
    Is it the one where you parse terabytes of data over and over and over? Or the one where you don't do anything but what you would normally do, with the added caveat that you do absolutely nothing at all if anything fishy occurred?


    I own a copy of one of their leaked DBs, and actually have the server infrastructure and training to use it, so I'd say I'm ahead of you on that one.


    A DBA who manages and specializes in the exact RDBMs they use, who has intimate familiarity with game design and delayed saving due to years of owning a MUD.

  14. Water Gay Male
    IGN: Scenarey
    Server: Arcania
    Level: 146
    Job: Mercedes
    Guild: Destiny
    Alliance: Providence
    canada

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Question: using 2), wouldn't the server need to keep track of all such transactions until they clear? and then save them one by one? You mentioned saving on quit, but it would seem risky and a potential source for data loss, especially if there is a certain accumulation of transactions. You don't have to explain, but I'm quite interested, so feel free :P

    PS: Sorry for sidetracking here.

  15. GLADIGATORS
    IGN: Overburnd
    Server: Khaini
    Level: 210
    Job: Cannoneer
    Guild: Contagious
    usa

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    I clearly don't have to.

  16. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    The transactions are serial, independent of each other and occur in microseconds. They don't accumulate because the only thing they block is themselves. Two characters wouldn't block each other because they're not touching the same rows of data.

    An example of how an item moves out of your storage bin into your inventory for example would be;
    Code:
    INSERT INTO ItemSlot_ETC
    SELECT * from ItemLocker where 
    where characterid = 1 and accountid = 2 and sn = 99999;
    GO
    DELETE FROM ItemLocker where 
    characterid = 1 and accountid = 2 and sn = 99999;
    The statements between the GO are handled as separate discrete events.
    They complete as soon as you pass their semi-colon. If a crash occurs between them, voila, dupe.

    It's as simple as this;

    Code:
    BEGIN TRANSACTION
    INSERT INTO ItemSlot_ETC
    SELECT * from ItemLocker where 
    where characterid = 1 and accountid = 2 and sn = 99999;
    
    DELETE FROM ItemLocker where 
    characterid = 1 and accountid = 2 and sn = 99999;
    COMMIT TRANSACTION;
    And suddenly the two are a single discrete block of logic. They both write their end results together, or not at all. Voila. Duping no longer possible.

    Duping being possible at all is ridiculous.

  17. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Removal of hacked gear = removal of megaupload/megavideo
    Random group of like only 500 people (out of the over a million that play this game) that are major hackers = anon/4chan
    Nexon servers = department of justice

  18. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    And that's where I realized you had no idea what you were talking about.

  19. Orbital Bee Cannon
    IGN: SaptaZapta
    Server: Kradia
    Level: 275
    Job: Hero
    Guild: Matriarchy
    Alliance: Peaceful

    Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Some comments:

    Those of you who are assuming the reason for these attacks is the removal of hacked gear, are forgetting we had the same thing happen long before Nexon touched that gear. Back then there was speculation it was because Nexon sued some people associated with a certain hacking site and tool.

    These attacks are also not made for the purpose of duping. As several posters said above, DDoS is a very crude method of crashing a channel - if it even works at all. Dupers are usually able to find bugs in Nexon's server software, which cause an instant channel crash upon receiving a certain packet (or sequence of packets). They use these to time their duping crashes precisely and to crash one channel at a time. What we are seeing now just doesn't fit.

    Eos is, of course, correct about preventing duping. It's a relatively simple matter of actually using the features the database product offers, instead of treating it as nothing but a glorified flat file. I'd also like to point out that the "item ID" method, besides being inefficient, does nothing against the duping of stacks and stacks of "rare" scrolls, recipes, or crafting materials.

  20. Default Re: Update - Disconnects and Latency Issues


    Not true actually, if you can't duplicate the stack in the first place you can't unstack and reshuffle to hide the fact you've done it.
    Stacking just prevents them from being able to spot duplicate IDs after the fact by merging everything into new IDs, but if it threw a PK constraint and never let the second item/stack exist it'd cut off the issue before it happens and could be hidden. That aside, the other flaws with a unique constraint on a DB this size still apply and make it potentially infeasible.

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