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  1. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    Another great thing to test would be jump attacking and how it affects Quintuple Throw's delay. Jump attacking lets NW attack 40% faster according to this video.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhvc2Z1ymT8

  2. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)



    It took me a few tries to get this to work properly for me. It might be latency, or a property of Quintuple Throw's delay or animation in particular, but performing it is stupidly tedious. The attack performed in midair appears to need you to push the Jump button at the same time, i.e. pretend you're performing a perfect Jump Attack again in midair. Simply using the regular button didn't do anything at all for me. The first attack doesn't need to be a perfect Jump Attack, but it should improve the attack speed if you're attacking on the jump frame rather than after.
    I'm getting about 390ms per attack, which is even faster than that person's 450ms though, but if you time it wrong, you end up Flash Jumping forward. The final throw only lasts for a single frame at 60fps, and the first throwing animation for the next set appears immediately after. The basic jump speed with Haste is about 690ms, but due to landing while performing the first portion of Quadruple Throw or Quintuple Throw's animation, you can't jump until it starts the second throwing animation, which cancels its delay. This leads to about 780ms per jump, where you attack twice per jump. This is also performable with Lucky Sevens, which doesn't actually stop your jump speed, meaning you will be able to attack at basically 300ms in 1st job if you time it correctly, and don't actually need Booster unless you're doing something where you need to stand still. In this particular case, you won't want Haste either because it makes your jumps take longer, unless you specifically want to hit higher up.
    It might also be possible to do this with Stardust, but I seem to always Flash Jump when I try a second throw in the air. Its stupidly long delay can be canceled by jump attacking though, so with no Haste, you can go at 570~600ms. I tried with the spot in Magatia by the banker where you hit a ceiling, and I could reach 540ms, and using Quadruple Thow, I could reach 480ms.

    In theory, I believe what is happening is:
    Quintuple Throw (I) Delay = 450ms + Booster = 360ms
    Quintuple Throw (II) Delay = 360ms + Cancel = 30ms
    360 + 30 + 360 + 30 = 780ms
    Haste Jump = 690ms.
    90ms is approximately spent landed.
    Regular Jump ~= 570ms
    210ms is approximately spent landed.

    Haste isn't required, but it makes it significantly easier, and there is no deficit because you cannot jump again until the second attack's second throw is completed. The only difference is with a single attack, where you can jump again when you land to cancel the delay of the second throw. In this case, Haste-less is faster since you land faster.


    I did a few more tests to see how Mark of Darkness and Shadow Bats work together. You should always generate an extra bat every 3 attacks. I believe if you're full on bats, nothing will happen and you have to wait another 3 attacks. Kind of hard to get 4 hits in with 4 bats active without spending one. My best guess with the extra bats I'm seeing is while Mark of Darkness is active, there is a chance to summon a Shadow Bat equal to its attacking chance, or something similar. I got approximately a 37% chance with my test after factoring out the guaranteed bats from every 3 attacks, which is close to my 40% attack rate. This seems to fit well, and if I get to 4th job, I'll have 45% attack chance and I can retest there at something stronger so I can have a large enough sample size to validate it, as well as use Darkness Omen to mess around with bat count. It's extremely difficult for me to count each individual Lucky Seven, and connecting it with each bat summoned or sent to attack, and I really don't like how complicated this is. It really should just be more clear in the description, because it mentions nothing about summoning more bats, just sending ones you already have to attack.

  3. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    Given what JoeTang has described, this is not a class that I can play comfortably. Because latency issues will never leave me.

    Hadriel

  4. Neon Atom Male
    IGN: EliulShad
    Server: Reboot
    Level: 21X
    Job: Shadower
    Guild: Epic
    Farm: StayTru
    usa

    Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    I'm actually very excited for this class. Was bummed out to see that NW's were closed since since v141. Was going to pre-make one in the meantime.

    I've always liked Night Lords but this definitely adds a more refreshing twist to it.

  5. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    I tried it a lot more, and perfect timing is probably more important than latency for the jump double Quintuple Throws. The trajectory of the stars might be affected by latency, but it's not too significant in my opinion as long as they all get out to begin with. The biggest issue with this might be being able to hit a platform above you when using the double QT. The other video had his stars going much higher than mine, though I haven't found a map where it matters so far. Most multiplatform maps suck.

    I think latency has only really affected my use of Rapid Evasion. The delay after using it is enourmous, despite saying it's 570ms, so I'm not sure if it's actually supposed to be that long, or it's something that I'm lagging through. I'll see if any 4th job skills lag tomorrow. Blaze Wizards are completely gimped if you lag though. Orbital Flame comes out delayed and it's just really pomegranatety that way.

  6. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    This pissed me the pineapple off trying to test Mark of Darkness because of how pineappleing short its duration is (5 SECONDS) and how pineappleing rarely it activates (30%). I had to use Lucky Sevens to activate it so I didn't murder the pomegranate out of the monsters I was trying on. Then walk to another group of monsters, cast Darkness Omen, and come back hopefully in time to throw a single Lucky Seven to see how many bats fly out if it hit its 82% Activation Rate. So after trying that for an obscene amount of time, I decided to just go die at Normal Zakum and get some results.

    Anyways, I've confirmed that for each Mark of Darkness stack, one extra bat from your cloud is sent to attack if it activates. Still not 100% confirmed on the generation mechanics, but unlikely to ever be 100% confirmed on something probability based. I'll probably configure the tables to use the rate I assumed earlier, and try to double check later if I actually level this character any further. I don't believe Stardust hitting multiple monsters is affected by this either. Otherwise, there would be a significantly huge difference in bat output and mobbing ability.

    @kayeyearekay I've also seen that Shadow Bats just do 1 damage to damage reflect and don't activate it, though this was against Elite monsters since I can't reliably find anything that DRs at my level. Not sure if they function any differently.

    Shadow Bats also do not aggro monsters after hitting them, just like every other similar missile skill.

  7. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.501:
    Night Walker:
    Quintuple Throw
    Stardust
    Hyper


    First iteration of Night Walkers. It's an assumption that jump double Quintuple Throw is possible. Not sure if it was back then, but the attack speed of the first throw was a bit slower, meaning the double throw action is slower, and fewer bats come out as a result.. I think one of the most defining difference in damage is Shadow Bat damage used to be 390%, whereas it is 590% on Live, and the summon/attack rate is 40% instead of 45%.
    Last edited by JoeTang; 2014-08-09 at 10:18 PM.

  8. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.502:
    Night Walker:
    Quintuple Throw
    Stardust
    Hyper


    Take 2.
    Last edited by JoeTang; 2014-08-09 at 10:17 PM.

  9. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.215:
    Night Walker:
    Quintuple Throw
    Stardust
    Hyper


    First Live Patch.
    >bats hit up to 8 times
    Last edited by JoeTang; 2014-08-09 at 10:17 PM.

  10. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.218:
    Night Walker:
    Quintuple Throw
    Stardust
    Hyper


    Current live patch.

    Uses Quintuple Throw and Stardust as options. Darkness Omen is used whenever it is available. It doesn't crit or send out bats, but it summons them if it hits enough targets. There is a "Standing" option where the full delay of attacks is used. Jumping for Quintuple Throw uses a double Quintuple Throw action. For Stardust, a single throw is used. Shadow Stitch isn't included since it's a keydown bind. Shadow Bats are summoned every 3 attacks. Quintuple Throw is 2 attacks. Each Shadow Servant performs attacks towards this count. Shadow Bats are also summoned at a rate of 45% on monsters with Mark of Darkness (i.e. always). They attack at a rate of 45%. For each Mark of Darkness stack an additional bat is sent if they exist. Bats bounce between two targets, which is why 2+ is so similar and ridiculously high. Basically, if there's 2 monsters, you get the full 6 hits of Shadow Bats as opposed to 1. Table is only set to 9 because even though Darkness Omen can hit up to 15 with its Hyper, the change is minor due to the 10s cooldown.
    Hypers used are Quintuple Throw - Reinforce, Boss Killer, Critical Rate, Darkness Omen - Cooldown Reduction, Reinforce, technically extra target for the 7+ but negligible as you can see. Not sure if I would recommend it.
    Just noticed Stardust is pretty trash. It definitely does not have a chance to summon or send bats per target hit. Might just remove it completely from the table.

    I might get to the other classes this weekend. Mercedes' needs a deeper look through the data to see if chain delays were actually added and/or changed. Otherwise, I just need to update Resistance and Nova classes and I can update posts. Probably going to be too lazy to update OP though.
    Last edited by JoeTang; 2014-08-09 at 09:45 AM.

  11. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    How come non hyper quinthrow is better than hyper quinthrow? And why does non hyper quinthrow have more hps and max m/s compared to hyper quinthrow?

  12. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    Because I'm terrible.

    It was actually using Stardust instead of Quintuple Throw. Fixed it for the Live table. Will update the rest when I get home later.

    EDIT: Updated.
    Last edited by JoeTang; 2014-08-09 at 10:18 PM.

  13. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.218:
    Shadower:
    Muspelheim
    Edge Carnival
    Savage Blow
    Assassinate + ME
    Sharp Eyes
    Hyper


    KP was changed to 3 stacks max. New Assassinate and Muspelheim delay and stronger hyper.

  14. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.218:
    Phantom:
    Arrow Platter
    Ultimate Drive/Twilight + Tempest of Card + Final Cut + Cross Over Chain
    Rapid Fire
    Sharp Eyes
    Hyper



    Not 100% sure if Arrow Blaster activates Noir Carte. I assume it does since it works on AFA now, or is that a bug?
    Either way, Cross Over Chains + Elemental Charge is best now I think.

  15. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    nvm just saw the post.

    So phantoms took a pretty significant hit to their max/s.

  16. Default Re: Thief %/s (KMS Unlimited and GMS Tempest)


    KMS 1.2.221:
    Black Heaven
    Blade Master:
    Spoiler
    Sharp Eyes
    Hyper



    I'm sorry, there's too many nested spoilers and I can't give a pineapple.

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