Warrior %/s (KMS You & I + GMS Unleashed)

**JoeTang** · 2014-04-29, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by Hanabira.Kage

JoeTang; According to your table, Lightning + Divine Charge gets increasingly better on bosses compared to Blizzard + Lightning Charge as you get more boss damage.

And in one of your posts in this thread, you said that the latter is superior if the Paladin has no boss damage at all.

So at what point does Lightning + Divine Charge become better? I kinda want to know because this will determine whether Divine Charge goes into my Low Priority list or my Utter Garbage list.

Oh, and if you don't mind, could you explain why such a change occurs?

The order of operations is
Skill_Damage% * (1 + Total_Damage% + Boss_Damage%)

The bonuses charges get when used in succession, as well as Combat Orders and Void Elemental are considered Total Damage. This means that for Blizzard and Lightning Charge, a significant amount of their damage is weighted in Total Damage, compared to Divine Charge where more of its damage is weighted in its base skill damage.

Blizzard Charge is 140%
Lightning Charge is 250%
Divine Charge is 411%

Combat Orders is +70%
Void Elemental is +210%.

Thus,
Blizzard Charge = 140 x (1 + 0.7 + 2.10) = 532%
Lightning Charge = 250 x (1 + 2.10) = 775%
Divine Charge = 441%

This would be why Blizzard and Lightning Charge are superior to Divine Charge in certain instances. However, when other sources of damage are also factored in:
Void Elemental's Total Damage: 30%
Blast Bonus: 42%
Elemental Charge: 25%
Blizzard/Lightning Charge Bonus: 15%
Divine Charge Bonus: 21%

Blizzard Charge = 140 x (1 + 0.7 + 2.10 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.15) = 688.8%
Lightning Charge = 250 x (1 + 2.10 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.15) = 1055%
Divine Charge = 441 x (1 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.21) = 961%

As you can see, the gap becomes smaller. The pattern of attack uses one charge as a primary, and a secondary charge to apply a debuff only. In this case, with all these buffs active, Lightning Charge still does enough damage that using it as the primary attack and only using Blizzard Charge to refresh its debuff and Elemental Charge is stronger than doing the same with Divine and Lightning.

Adding 100% more Total/Boss Damage to the equation
Blizzard Charge = 140 x (1 + 0.7 + 2.10 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.15 + 1.00) = 828.8%
Lightning Charge = 250 x (1 + 2.10 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.15 + 1.00) = 1305%
Divine Charge = 441 x (1 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.21 + 1.00) = 1402%
Divine Charge is now higher than Lightning Charge in the optimal scenario, and can be used as the primary attack with Lightning Charge as the secondary.

Solving 250 * (1 + 2.10 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.15 + x) = 441 * (1 + 0.30 + 0.42 + 0.25 + 0.21 + x)
We find that x = 49% Total/Boss Damage where Divine exceeds Lightning.

**sammy134** · 2014-06-08, 08:09 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTang

The combo should be doable at Fast (5), with the final hit of Beta's 4 still Assisting. Advanced Weapon Throw is the strongest if all the hits can connect. In many training situations, this may not be the case, especially if you're rushing into corners and you activate it the wrong way.
Alpha 4-2-3 is the strongest because they just chain together well. If for some reason there's still a CD on 4, use the first hit of 1 to clear it. Do that until you can tag to Beta, and if you can hit the monsters with most or all of the hits of AWT, use 2-4-2. Otherwise, I would use 3-4-1. You can use Beta's combination 3 and have it Assist with the first hit, and then Assist with Whirlwind. Immediately switch to combination 4, and you can Assist on Giga Crash, leaving the twisters on the monsters you pulled or already rushed beforehand. Alternatively, you can Assist twice on Whirlwind and then switch to Combination 4. Not 100% sure if you can Assist twice on whirlwind and switch to Giga Crash to get an Assist on that too.

Depending on the situation, beta's Combination 4 isn't necessarily the strongest to Assist with. If monsters are all stacked together, only Assisting with Giga Crash will be stronger. Having Advanced Rolling Assaulter come out twice from Advanced Whirlwind is really strong. Advanced Weapon Throw is super strong if all its hits connect, and the Assist helps that, but even on its own it has the highest damage potential. Otherwise, Assist on Combination 4 is good for covering a huge area.

Yes.

Sorry for asking again but I just can't get any of these ideal combos to work. So, the normal attck speed on both weapons is 6. Alpha mastery gives +3, so it goes to Faster (3). I than use the blue attack speed buff to bring me to Fastest (2). Unfortunately Beta can only go to Faster (3) because her mastery only gives +2. So I thought that this is the reason why i can't fit everything in that 3 second window I have during the tag. I tried the Tag that you suggested Alpha 4-2-3 and the tag ends right after two abilities. With alpha I could only fit two abilities into the tag. And because 3 did more than 2, i replaced 2 with 3. So my alpha tag was 4-3. With Beta my AWT was not going to hit so I went with 3-4. I switched to 4 after alpha assist went through. When it was assisting with giga chrash it only fit 2 out of the 3 attacks. So up to earthbreak and not advanced earthbreak. Am I supposed to get speed infusion or the potential buff to get beta to Fastest (2), so the full combo 4 can fit in the assist? I dont see how I am supposed to fit 3 distinct attacks into the assist when I cant even barely fit 2.

I looked up someone doing an example of the assist I was talking about and even they could not fit the 3rd attack of beta into the assist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hs3UQrB9kx0

The Tag that I am referring to starts at 0:22 and 0:32. The tag starts with alpha and at 0:22 the player is tagging to beta. Does combo 3 and holds on to it until the animation shows the alpha combo 3 going off. Than goes to combo 4. The first 2 abilities of combo 4 assist but the 3rd and the biggest hit does not. This is a problem. Than once the player is on alpha, he does combo 4 into combo 3 and with these 2 combos the assist goes off correctly, because of the faster attack speed I assume.

"Alternatively, you can Assist twice on Whirlwind and then switch to Combination 4. Not 100% sure if you can Assist twice on whirlwind and switch to Giga Crash to get an Assist on that too."

This is the combo that you were referring to I assume. and the giga crash does not assist. But even if I assist once on whirlwind, than go into combo 4 it assists all the way but how am I supposed to add combo 1 after giga. theres just no room for it and the tag is over after giga. If the tag/assist only lasts so that 2 combos can be used within 1 tag (3 seconds) what is the point of trying to add a 3rd combo that is not assisted? Is there there for mobility?

Edit: I just tried canceling literally after whirlwind assist on beta and went to combo 4 and the last hit still did not go off. So whether I cancel whirlwind instantly or after 1 second ( waiting for the combo 3 of alpha to go through), it still only fits 2 attacks from combo 4. Maybe if beta had 2 attack speed, cancelling immediately would fit the 3rd hit of giga crash in the assist but still I dont know how to put the 3rd attack in the rotation.

Thank you, I hope that I expressed my problem properly and if other zero's are experiencing this problem please input your opinion

**JoeTang** · 2014-06-08, 08:46 PM

It's been a very long time but, the suggestions were for the time gap between tagging, not just assisting.

My suggestion of Alpha 4-2-3 is because it is a strong combo that cuts its cooldown, covers a wide area, and travels. I don't think Combination 3 can Assist in this case, and Beta's assist on 3 is pretty bad to begin with. If you only do 4-2, you're stopping early, leaving yourself vulnerable when adding Combination 3 deals a significant amount of damage and adds some invulnerability in many situations.

I'm pretty sure Beta requires Combination 1 in 3-4-1 if you don't want to stop attacking to wait for the tag. It stops Assisting partway, but there's still time before you can switch back to Alpha, so using Combination 1 deals the most damage in the meantime.
Same with delaying 3 to get two Assists on Whirlwind, and then using 4. The two Assists on Whirlwind provide more damage than if you were to fully Assist with 4.

**kayeyearekay** · 2014-06-26, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by syj

Did any Kaiser notice how crazy wing beat is now?

edit: just dc'd twice in dojo when I had 2 wing beats up while using giga

ran dojo again. you're right about the wingbeat change. i dont know how i was ok yesterday, but this morning, 2 wing beats + gigas spam = "speed" dcs

@<u><a href="http://www.southperry.net/member.php?u=535" target="_blank">JoeTang</a></u>; nexon did something weird to kaisers again (maybe others too)
it seems like wingbeat hit delay comes out at hurricane-like speed after GMSv150, and its 40 atk hit (hyper 48) only lasts maybe 3 seconds.
given the casting delay, and how its not a ~20 second DoT anymore, oh, AND, i can't triple wing beat anymore, the first is gone by the time i drop a third
this seems like a decrease in dps/dpm

-videos to come - (1 of 2) i dont know why the quality is so bad; im noob video uploader; 2hrs for a 30sec fraps

Spoiler

oversized pics of frame gap between a single wing beat. frame by frame i can only count 24 lines of damage between 07.433 and 09.333 time stamps

Spoiler

-upload is slow -

**ShinkuDragon** · 2014-06-26, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by kayeyearekay

ran dojo again. you're right about the wingbeat change. i dont know how i was ok yesterday, but this morning, 2 wing beats + gigas spam = "speed" dcs

JoeTang; nexon did something weird to kaisers again (maybe others too)
it seems like wingbeat hit delay comes out at hurricane-like speed after GMSv150, and its 40 atk hit (hyper 48) only lasts maybe 3 seconds.
given the casting delay, and how its not a ~20 second DoT anymore, oh, AND, i can't triple wing beat anymore, the first is gone by the time i drop a third
this seems like a decrease in dps/dpm

-videos to come - (1 of 2) i dont know why the quality is so bad; im noob video uploader; 2hrs for a 30sec fraps

Spoiler

oversized pics of frame gap between a single wing beat. frame by frame i can only count 24 lines of damage between 07.433 and 09.333 time stamps

Spoiler

-upload is slow -

from a logical standpoint why would it decrease DPM? the damage stays the same but it now comes faster, if anything this either leaves the DPM the same or the more probable, raises it

also from just reading around it seems all attacks that deal damage when you walk on them had their delay decreased, i'd venture to say that that skill that leaves fire DoT on the floor also does it faster now

**kayeyearekay** · 2014-06-26, 02:50 PM

before GMS v150, wing beat duration was ~20sec, and about 2 hits per second. drop three, and wing beat while they're spinning. makes wingbeat more of a DoT, really, and the main attack, gigas wave, can be spam in between. wingbeat is also so slow to cast, i dont know if in the end, its losing out casting wingbeat, or just not casting it at all. if the hits are only 24, and i can gigas twice in the same time, its nearly equal hits (equal damage) except for each wing beat proc using up a hit count, thus reaching the stop-proc much sooner. Right now, the only way i see to use would be wing beat, + 2 gigas, to fill the cast delay; and repeat. and throwing swords will replace 1 gigas count, every cooldown. that... verses... just gigas & swords (without wingbeat).

im sure that wing beat string required 'wiggle' will add up to a lot of time not attacking

it seems like a mistake; plus... now kaiser is on thin ice with speed-D/C again.

@ShinkuDragon;
EDIT: vs magnus, or any boss that cannot sustain the old-style wingbeat, this is dps increase, easily. but, for the boss where old-style wingbeat worked, i think im losing (hits per second) out on dps from "attacking during triple wingbeat. (not counting the increased damage)

old-style wingbeat bosses:
empress, gollux, zakum, sometimes horntail, RA Queen, RA Clown

new-style wingbeat bosses will favor:
magnus, RA Clown, RA Vellum*!! RA chicken,

**ShinkuDragon** · 2014-06-27, 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by kayeyearekay

before GMS v150, wing beat duration was ~20sec, and about 2 hits per second. drop three, and wing beat while they're spinning. makes wingbeat more of a DoT, really, and the main attack, gigas wave, can be spam in between. wingbeat is also so slow to cast, i dont know if in the end, its losing out casting wingbeat, or just not casting it at all. if the hits are only 24, and i can gigas twice in the same time, its nearly equal hits (equal damage) except for each wing beat proc using up a hit count, thus reaching the stop-proc much sooner. Right now, the only way i see to use would be wing beat, + 2 gigas, to fill the cast delay; and repeat. and throwing swords will replace 1 gigas count, every cooldown. that... verses... just gigas & swords (without wingbeat).

im sure that wing beat string required 'wiggle' will add up to a lot of time not attacking

it seems like a mistake; plus... now kaiser is on thin ice with speed-D/C again.

ShinkuDragon;
EDIT: vs magnus, or any boss that cannot sustain the old-style wingbeat, this is dps increase, easily. but, for the boss where old-style wingbeat worked, i think im losing (hits per second) out on dps from "attacking during triple wingbeat. (not counting the increased damage)

old-style wingbeat bosses:
empress, gollux, zakum, sometimes horntail, RA Queen, RA Clown

new-style wingbeat bosses will favor:
magnus, RA Clown, RA Vellum*!! RA chicken,

i don't know man, if wingbeat was your highest HPS skill, now that it hits faster the HPS should go up, but i don't see the point in HPS, i'd rather do damage per second, if wingbeat is your highest damage per second (casted) then now that you can spam it even more the damage has no other way to go but up, because now you can use your highest damaging ability more times in the same amount of time.

unless wingbeat received a damage or #of hits decrease (again, i don't bother with kaisers) there's no way the change could have worsened the DPS

**kayeyearekay** · 2014-06-28, 01:16 AM

i cant tell if we're getting all 48 hits, or only 24 hits. going frame by frame, i only count 24, so maybe 2 hits per proc?
seems possible, since 2 wing beats will cause attack limit, and stop doing damage.

**Encyclopedic** · 2014-06-28, 04:39 AM

@kayeyearekay; @ShinkuDragon; The same happened to Lumi's Morning Star or whatever it's called.

skip to 3:40

**lulzace** · 2014-06-28, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTang

It's been a very long time but, the suggestions were for the time gap between tagging, not just assisting.

My suggestion of Alpha 4-2-3 is because it is a strong combo that cuts its cooldown, covers a wide area, and travels. I don't think Combination 3 can Assist in this case, and Beta's assist on 3 is pretty bad to begin with. If you only do 4-2, you're stopping early, leaving yourself vulnerable when adding Combination 3 deals a significant amount of damage and adds some invulnerability in many situations.

I'm pretty sure Beta requires Combination 1 in 3-4-1 if you don't want to stop attacking to wait for the tag. It stops Assisting partway, but there's still time before you can switch back to Alpha, so using Combination 1 deals the most damage in the meantime.
Same with delaying 3 to get two Assists on Whirlwind, and then using 4. The two Assists on Whirlwind provide more damage than if you were to fully Assist with 4.

Delaying 3 is her whirlwind correct? So just tapping it and allowing Alpha to go off with is rolling curve then tapping it again so he finishes it up?

And assisting with 4 is just an example since you'd want to fully connect. yes? Sorry about all of my questions all over but it's not like I can just go in game an test what I'm reading atm to figure it out :/

**JoeTang** · 2014-06-28, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by lulzace

Delaying 3 is her whirlwind correct? So just tapping it and allowing Alpha to go off with is rolling curve then tapping it again so he finishes it up?

And assisting with 4 is just an example since you'd want to fully connect. yes? Sorry about all of my questions all over but it's not like I can just go in game an test what I'm reading atm to figure it out :/

Yes, delaying her Combination 3 means you activate Whirlwind, and let Alpha attack twice before switching to another skill. You probably won't be able to assist with any other skill by doing this though, or only just once after, but it was my experience in training that this was more useful when you didn't have everything packed together already, especially if you OHKO with the assist.
If you're using Beta 3-4-1, it's really just to activate Whirlwind as quickly as possible to get the assist and switch immediately into 4.
2-4-2 is still her strongest combo if you have less than like 200% Boss and the target doesn't move out of Weapon Throw's path. Otherwise, I think spamming 4 and 1 was the next best thing for single target. Combination 1 just has a really bad hitbox for most uses, and isn't convenient.

**lulzace** · 2014-06-29, 02:09 AM

Alright then, Seems like PDR is fixed or something because after finally being able to patch my damage on hilla pretty much doubled. And I noticed a while back that i had a huge damage drop after one of the root abyss "fixes".

**Survival** · 2014-07-09, 02:16 PM

Does the current KMS/GMS Demon Avenger chart utilize Shield Chasing's additional target hyper skill?

**JoeTang** · 2014-07-09, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by Survival

Does the current KMS/GMS Demon Avenger chart utilize Shield Chasing's additional target hyper skill?

I don't think I ever confirmed how that worked. Does it allow you to shoot 4 shields if there are 4 enemies around you?
I believe I found a bug here where Shield Chasing's damage was counted twice though. Shield Chasing hits 8 times, and shoots 2 shields, but for some reason, I have it as 2 * 2 * 8.
I've also never included the double defense ignore because I was never sure what exactly it did, but I guess it just applies your current defense ignore again.

**Survival** · 2014-07-09, 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by JoeTang

I don't think I ever confirmed how that worked. Does it allow you to shoot 4 shields if there are 4 enemies around you?
I believe I found a bug here where Shield Chasing's damage was counted twice though. Shield Chasing hits 8 times, and shoots 2 shields, but for some reason, I have it as 2 * 2 * 8.
I've also never included the double defense ignore because I was never sure what exactly it did, but I guess it just applies your current defense ignore again.

I think Nexon poorly worded the skill so most of it needed to be tested. The double hits isn't a bug as far as I can tell since it's been there since the release afaik. The hyper doesn't add any shields; rather, it just extends the 8 hits to 10 hits per shield (making 20 targets per cast and 40 hits altogether). I can't speak for how the ignore defense though since I haven't paid any attention to it yet.

**JoeTang** · 2014-07-10, 02:41 AM

Originally Posted by Survival

I think Nexon poorly worded the skill so most of it needed to be tested. The double hits isn't a bug as far as I can tell since it's been there since the release afaik. The hyper doesn't add any shields; rather, it just extends the 8 hits to 10 hits per shield (making 20 targets per cast and 40 hits altogether). I can't speak for how the ignore defense though since I haven't paid any attention to it yet.

Okay, it's been a year and a half since I've been on my Demon Avenger and it's noted nowhere that each shield does 2 lines of damage. Here it is with the Hyper, and that last KMS patch where Shield Chasing gives a +30% bonus to Moonlight Slash.

KMST 1.2.495:
Demon Avenger:

Spoiler

Sharp Eyes

Hyper

**Survival** · 2014-07-10, 05:09 AM

Originally Posted by JoeTang

Okay, it's been a year and a half since I've been on my Demon Avenger and it's noted nowhere that each shield does 2 lines of damage. Here it is with the Hyper, and that last KMS patch where Shield Chasing gives a +30% bonus to Moonlight Slash.

I believe the readout was only changed recently. It still lacks a clear choice of words of course, but it's clearer than Basil's "Enemies Hit."

Originally Posted by JoeTang

KMST 1.2.495:
Demon Avenger:

Spoiler

Sharp Eyes

Hyper

Thanks! It's greatly appreciated!

**TheBlackMage** · 2014-07-10, 06:37 AM

Could you make a Soul master chart with thier mobbing skill as the 1v1?
I am wondering what it would be, since you can't execute the 1v1 properly with alot of latency, and I would like to see by how much % would it decrease the damage.
I do think it might be better in terms of hit/s though.
Thanks in advance.

**JoeTang** · 2014-08-11, 08:46 PM

KMS 1.2.218:
Hero:

Spoiler

Sharp Eyes

Hyper

Rage Uprising Cooldown was reduced from 30s to 10s. Only change. Still a bad skill. Delay is too long. Good nuke though I guess.

**JoeTang** · 2014-08-11, 08:49 PM

KMS 1.2.218:
Paladin:

Sword

Blunt Weapon

Hyper

Fairly big chunk of their damage from Advanced Charge's bonus was taken. Even more from Void Elemental's resistance ignore which isn't used here.

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