[KMST] [1.2.381] The Wind

[ShanghaiDizzy]

I didn't say it was a stationary boss, I said that PB is pinned to the right and the ranged classes stand in a certain spot, which is where you can, and I always see, Dark Flare planted. Also, we apparently have different ideas of spammed attacks. HT and CHT do spam attacks in my experience and opinion.

You failed to grasp the concept I presented. Here, I'll present it once again. The fact here is that PB, pinned or not, is a non-stationary boss. Yes, Dark Flare will work if he's within range and kept within that range. However, in the event that is impossible due to lack of rushers, movement skills, etc. Dark Flare retains its inability to function the moment PB is outside of range.

More feistiness. I don't particularly appreciate the bit at the end. Nevertheless, it appears that you're arguing both. You want BOTH strong skills AND great synergy. One without the other is a great source of frustration. Choose a new class that you feel fulfills your wants, instead of whining. Be proactive.

I didn't mention a single word of needing the class to be strong. In fact, I was one of the ones against it. However, you asked what defined a good class. I responded a class that maintains synergy within itself, not a class full of mish mash skills that do not compliment each other. Instead, you twisted my argument (and your own) to a point where you concluded I need Night Lords to be a class with perfect synergy with high-end damage.

Furthermore, a class that has good synergy with itself doesn't necessarily make it strong. A class that has good synergy with itself means its skills don't become obsolete nor will it have filler skills with little to no functionality. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

Each class has pros and cons, that should be mutually agreeable. NL's have lots of damage, and less synergy. Go play a Shad, more synergy but notably worse damage. Or better yet, play a Bucc, lots of synergy and abysmal damage.

Dealing lots of damage (which Night Lords do not have) does not warrant a lack of synergy. That's just bad game design. And I've said it before, I'll say it again until you can finally grasp the concept. A class with good synergy within its skills does not mean it will deal massive amounts of damage.

Also, Shadowers are hardly weak. In fact, they hold positions at the top of the charts. However, this isn't the topic of discussion.

I didn't say 'your class should now suck'. I don't think anyone did. Who said that? Quotes please. If you look at all the posts i've made, you'll notice that none of them say NL's will or do suck. I've said several times that NL's are plenty strong enough, and that they have useless skills, and that i'm totally supportive of NL's getting more skills that enhance their synergy, as long as it's done in a way that doesn't amplify their damage, because that aspect of NL's is fine as in.

Sure, look here.

Spoiler

The existence of AFA already makes BM retardedly strong. Why aren't NL's allowed the same luxury?

Because you've had it for 6-8 years depending on where you live?

Because we've had the luxury of damage for 6-8 years, you insinuated that we no longer deserve it. If you mean something else by that statement, clear it up.

Furthermore, I'm not frustrated at the class (otherwise, I'd have left it long ago). However, the presented items of notice I've brought to light are issues, problems, and downfalls to the class I've known long ago and realize could have been done better. What I've shown to you were faults in why the skills don't work well with each other. What you've shown in your responses is that so long as they do damage (crap damage or non-crap damage), they don't need synergy, and under the condition that damage is dealt, it's considered to be a good skill. That's the problem.

[White]

You failed to grasp the concept I presented. Here, I'll present it once again. The fact that PB, planted or not, is a non-stationary boss. Yes, Dark Flare will work if he's within range and kept within that range. However, in the event that is impossible due to lack of rushers, movement skills, etc. Dark Flare retains its inability to function the moment PB is outside of range.

Ok, that's true, if PB moves outside the range of Dark Flare, then Dark Flare won't do damage to it. All this discussion about the skill has me now confused, what is the issue you're bringing up? That because other classes don't get hit for lots of damage all the time, Dark Flare isn't a very useful skill? I don't think the intention of Dark Flare was to do amazing damage. In fact, based on the skill chart, since it does 1300% damage, I think Nexon knew that players wouldn't be taking lots of damage and thus the skill would need to have a high percent to even be implemented.

To be honest, I'd say the skill does have synergy in the respect that it works well with some classes. Just because it doesn't work as well with certain classes doesn't mean it doesn't have synergy.

I didn't mention a single word of needing the class to be strong. In fact, I was one of the ones against it. However, you asked what defined a good class. I responded a class that maintains synergy within itself, not a class full of mish mash skills that do not compliment each other. Instead, you twisted my argument (and your own) to a point where you concluded I need Night Lords to be a class with perfect synergy with high-end damage.

Considering NL's already have high end damage, improving synergy to the point it appears you want it, would make a class that would be heads over other all other classes.

Furthermore, a class that has good synergy with itself doesn't necessarily make it strong. A class that has good synergy with itself means its skills don't become obsolete nor will it have filler skills with little to no functionality. This is not a hard concept to grasp.

While it's true that just because a class has good synergy with itself and other classes doesn't necessarily make it a strong class. If you add good synergy to a class that already has good damage, then you have a class with good damage and good synergy. To be clear, NL's have good damage currently.

Dealing lots of damage (which Night Lords do not have) does not warrant a lack of synergy. That's just bad game design. And I've said it before, I'll say it again until you can finally grasp the concept. A class with good synergy within its skills does not mean it will deal massive amounts of damage.

I didn't say dealing lots of damage warrants a lack of synergy. Look at my posts! I've said that Nexon should improve the synergy of NL's! However, i've added the stipulation that I do not believe Nexon should increase the damage that NL's do while buffing their synergy and removing useless skills and added useful ones.

NL's do, in fact, have good damage. When three different NL's that I boss with are hitting over 300k's on their bottom stars on bosses that have 60% (!!!!!) PDR, I would definitely claim they have good damage. I routinely see NL's at lower tier bosses like zak or scar/targa that do more damage than similarly funded other classes (any). I assure you, NL's do have good damage. Perhaps you are forgetting to factor in their ability to just not take damage, and thus not have to deal with status ailments that land due to getting hit (think about those pillars that fall in zak and stun, or the lightning that strikes and causes seal at zak, or the purple tornado at grandpa that seals). If you dodge those hits, you don't need to possibly repot (slow down dpm), and especially hit that all-cure button which isn't usable until after the seal icon shows up over your head (frustrating at ht especially).

I'll give you a real time example. Just this evening I went on a guild cwkpq run and I asked to solo Margana (the mage). I calculated out my damage and I was hitting ~952k damage/second on stew, mw30 and concentrate (only on for half the solo). Now, if I get hit at a boss, I lose like what, half a second? Boom, 500k damage lost. Then, consider it's a stun from zak, how much damage do I miss out on at that point? Or say it's a seal like at HT, how long does it take for me to use an all-cure and start back up fighting? I'm missing out on millions and millions of damage over the course of a reasonable boss battle, whereas NL's, not being hit nearly as often, don't lose out on that damage.

Also, Shadowers are hardly weak. In fact, they hold positions at the top of the charts. However, this isn't the topic of discussion.

My personal experience says otherwise but we'll have to agree to disagree as you're right, that's not for this thread.

Sure, look here.

Because we've had the luxury of damage for 6-8 years, you insinuated that we no longer deserve it. Unless you mean something else by that statement, clear it up.

Ok, i'll attempt to clear it up. When I say, "Because you've had [the luxury of being retardedly strong] for 6-8 years depending on where you live." that is not me saying that you now must be weak garbage. That is me saying, it's not unreasonable for you to no longer be retardedly strong. If I say the ground is not very soft and supple, that is not me saying that the ground is exceptionally hard and coarse. I'm saying that overall it's totally fine for NL's to not be at the top. I think it's about time. NOTE: That's not me saying that NL's should be at the bottom.

Furthermore, I'm not frustrated at the class (otherwise, I'd have left it long ago). However, the presented items of notice I've brought to light are issues, problems, and downfalls to the class I've known long ago and realize could have been done better. What I've shown to you were faults in why the skills don't work well with each other. What you've shown in your responses is that so long as they do damage (crap damage or non-crap damage), they don't need synergy, and under the condition that damage is dealt, it's considered to be a good skill. That's the problem.

If I said that I considered Dark Flare to be a good skill (I don't remember, don't think so though) then that was a mistake. I see now that Dark Flare is not a good skill. It's a usable skill. It's not a bad skill. But it's not a good skill either. It, like many many many other skills in this game, are simple passable and augment the class but are nothing superb.

As for skills that do damage not needing synergy, I don't think I said that. I believe I said something similar that you have now twisted.

[MetaSeraphim]

To the first part, that's not what i'm reading when I read what Dizzy has been typing. I'm not sensing that Dizzy is casually interested in Nexon making NL's a bit more enjoyable to play. I'm instead reading that Dizzy is frustrated with lots of useless skills and (catch word coming) more 'synergy', which I can only assume to mean more skills that work together and more damage buffing skills or skills that do more damage straight up. To which i've been replying that skills working together is completely reasonable and overdue, while more damage is not necessary as NL's already do top notch dpm at bosses anyway.

So you're over reading into a person's comment and telling them what they're saying because of your feeling?

Finally, I haven't whined about NL's getting a damage boost. How exactly would you say i'm, "whining about Night Lords getting any sort of damage boost when they get rebalanced"? I haven't.

You have whined about any chance of Night Lords getting a damage boost, that is what I meant by my comment and you even admitted that you did here.

I've expressed a fairly strong disinterest in seeing an improvement in their damage dealing capabilities, but I haven't dwelled on that for more than a couple of sentences at most at a time.

[White]

So you're over reading into a person's comment and telling them what they're saying because of your feeling?

I'm reading a person's comments in context. Heard of the saying that tone isn't communicated well over the internet? Hopefully you can recognize the fact that in that statement, it's assumed that the reader can 'over read' that there is more in the text than what is explicitly stated. As in, sarcasm. Some people write with it, others don't, but it's there sometimes. If I correctly interpret another person's sarcasm, am I 'over reading'? No. Because there IS tone in what someone writes, it's just sometimes misinterpreted or not expressed clearly.

You have whined about any chance of Night Lords getting a damage boost, that is what I meant by my comment and you even admitted that you did here.

Expressing an awareness of a possibility, and stating my wariness toward the implementation of said possibility isn't the same as whining. Hopefully you can tell the difference.

Now, MetaSeraphim, have you something actual to add to this thread or are you content to merely pick apart my words and try and lure me into a mess of word games and semantics? I respect that you're trying to stand up for ShanghaiDizzy but she seems perfectly capable of stating her own opinions just fine. If you have an opinion on this issue, please do state it. If your opinions are strictly relegated to having a problem with me, then feel completely free to PM me, as that is the proper place for such discussions.

[ShanghaiDizzy]

Ok, that's true, if PB moves outside the range of Dark Flare, then Dark Flare won't do damage to it. All this discussion about the skill has me now confused, what is the issue you're bringing up? That because other classes don't get hit for lots of damage all the time, Dark Flare isn't a very useful skill? I don't think the intention of Dark Flare was to do amazing damage. In fact, based on the skill chart, since it does 1300% damage, I think Nexon knew that players wouldn't be taking lots of damage and thus the skill would need to have a high percent to even be implemented.

No, this portion of the argument I've presented this whole time isn't about the "usefulness" of Dark Flare (which you happen to be thinking it's about). This potion of the argument is that Dark Flare doesn't work well in conjunction with the other aspects of the NL class, the majority of other classes, and doesn't work well with the nature of the boss itself.

Considering NL's already have high end damage, improving synergy to the point it appears you want it, would make a class that would be heads over other all other classes.

How many times do I need to repeat it. Having high end damage doesn't excuse NL's from having skills that compliment each other.

NL's do, in fact, have good damage. When three different NL's that I boss with are hitting over 300k's on their bottom stars on bosses that have 60% (!!!!!) PDR, I would definitely claim they have good damage. I routinely see NL's at lower tier bosses like zak or scar/targa that do more damage than similarly funded other classes (any). I assure you, NL's do have good damage. Perhaps you are forgetting to factor in their ability to just not take damage, and thus not have to deal with status ailments that land due to getting hit (think about those pillars that fall in zak and stun, or the lightning that strikes and causes seal at zak, or the purple tornado at grandpa that seals). If you dodge those hits, you don't need to possibly repot (slow down dpm), and especially hit that all-cure button which isn't usable until after the seal icon shows up over your head (frustrating at ht especially).

300k's on bosses with 60% PDRate with just NL buffs. I've went and checked the math. NL's would need 300-ish W.ATK with 21% gear on everything tier 3, 14% gear on tier 2's, and being level 200 Dexless to reach 295,807 damage on a maximum star. That's not the class being strong. That's the players playing those NL's having lots of high-end gear. However, that's a discussion for another time.

EDIT: Also, Shifter does not guard status effects against damage skills that carry them. Zakum pillars still stun thieves if shifter activates. And to my knowledge, this never got a fix.

If I said that I considered Dark Flare to be a good skill (I don't remember, don't think so though) then that was a mistake. I see now that Dark Flare is not a good skill. It's a usable skill. It's not a bad skill. But it's not a good skill either. It, like many many many other skills in this game, are simple passable and augment the class but are nothing superb.

As for skills that do damage not needing synergy, I don't think I said that. I believe I said something similar that you have now twisted.

No, it was your attitude that "bam, you're getting free damage, stop complaining" attitude that it was in reference to. No words were twisted in those regards.

[White]

No, this portion of the argument I've presented this whole time isn't about the "usefulness" of Dark Flare (which you happen to be thinking it's about). This potion of the argument is that Dark Flare doesn't work well in conjunction with the other aspects of the NL class, the majority of other classes, and doesn't work well with the nature of the boss itself.

Dark Flare is a party skill. That out of the way, I don't see why you say it doesn't work well w/ other aspects of the NL class. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the NL class at all. It's completely reliant on the other people in the party for it to do damage. Are you saying that the skill itself shouldn't be in the NL skillbook because it doesn't really fit well with the supposed lore of the class? As for it not working well with the majority of other classes, I can only chalk that up to a misunderstanding of the skill on your part. The purpose of the skill is to do damage is it not? If it accomplishes that goal, i'm unsure where the problem lies. As for bosses, lemme go through the main ones that come to my mind at 4am in the morning. HT/CHT, stationary, irrelevant. Zak/Czak, stationary, irrelevant. PB, always pinned so for all practical purposes, stationary and irrelevant, Statues are stationary. Toad, stationary and irrelevant. Guard Ani, not stationary, somewhat relevant. Grandpa, best solo'd but if he's not solo'd, he's pinned and thus like PB, essentially stationary and irrelevant. Krexel, stationary and irrelevant. Scar/Targ, just like PB unless players are goofing around hitting it back and forth, in which case optimal damage isn't a priority and thus Dark Flare isn't really a relevant thing. Anego, exactly like grandpa. The only boss I consider that your claim gives credence to is Van Leon, but I can't really address that as i've never actually gone to Van Leon. Pap, Crow, CWKPQ, Pianus, these are all bosses that are either best soloed, pinned or stationary.

How many times do I need to repeat it. Having high end damage doesn't excuse NL's from having skills that compliment each other.

Hopefully not any more. How many times do I need to repeat that i'm fully supportive of NL's getting their skills fixed up so that they don't have as many useless ones, and i'm totally on board with more synergy for the class? My problem has never been with synergy for NL's. It has merely been me addressing my concern that in fixing up skills to have more synergy, more damage will be added which I don't feel is necessary as NL's are already strong.

300k's on bosses with 60% PDRate with just NL buffs. I've went and checked the math. NL's would need 300-ish W.ATK with 21% gear on everything tier 3, 14% gear on tier 2's, and being level 200 Dexless to reach 295,807 damage on a maximum star. That's not the class being strong. That's the players playing those NL's having lots of high-end gear. However, that's a discussion for another time.

SE of course, echo usually, mw30 is standard, and stews or apples, not sure which.

Those buffs are to be expected in a run of only 180+ characters.

[ShanghaiDizzy]

Dark Flare is a party skill. That out of the way, I don't see why you say it doesn't work well w/ other aspects of the NL class. It doesn't actually have anything to do with the NL class at all. It's completely reliant on the other people in the party for it to do damage. Are you saying that the skill itself shouldn't be in the NL skillbook because it doesn't really fit well with the supposed lore of the class? As for it not working well with the majority of other classes, I can only chalk that up to a misunderstanding of the skill on your part. The purpose of the skill is to do damage is it not? If it accomplishes that goal, i'm unsure where the problem lies. As for bosses, lemme go through the main ones that come to my mind at 4am in the morning. HT/CHT, stationary, irrelevant. Zak/Czak, stationary, irrelevant. PB, always pinned so for all practical purposes, stationary and irrelevant, Statues are stationary. Toad, stationary and irrelevant. Guard Ani, not stationary, somewhat relevant. Grandpa, best solo'd but if he's not solo'd, he's pinned and thus like PB, essentially stationary and irrelevant. Krexel, stationary and irrelevant. Scar/Targ, just like PB unless players are goofing around hitting it back and forth, in which case optimal damage isn't a priority and thus Dark Flare isn't really a relevant thing. Anego, exactly like grandpa. The only boss I consider that your claim gives credence to is Van Leon, but I can't really address that as i've never actually gone to Van Leon. Pap, Crow, CWKPQ, Pianus, these are all bosses that are either best soloed, pinned or stationary.

Dark Flare has everything to do with NL's and the class itself. The fact it's a party skill doesn't automatically exclude NL's from that aspect. However, despite it being a party skill, I've already proven in this post that it lacks synergy with other classes in addition to itself. While the purpose of the skill is to do damage, the amount of damage it produces is reduced by the fact that many classes have damage mitigation skills or high avoid (which reduces its ability to deal damage period). This is negative synergy.

The fact it works only within a set area until planted elsewhere means it functions best at stationary and pinned bosses. This I won't argue with. However, not all bosses are stationary, not all bosses will be pinned either through either lack of ability to do so or other disturbances. This is the negative synergy with the game itself through no fault of the game itself and through no fault of the skill. However, it is still negative synergy.

Hopefully not any more. How many times do I need to repeat that i'm fully supportive of NL's getting their skills fixed up so that they don't have as many useless ones, and i'm totally on board with more synergy for the class? My problem has never been with synergy for NL's. It has merely been me addressing my concern that in fixing up skills to have more synergy, more damage will be added which I don't feel is necessary as NL's are already strong.

So you don't want NL's to become stronger, but you want them to have more synergy, which in your opinion, is for them to become stronger? Sorry, but that's what I'm reading here.

SE of course, echo usually, mw30 is standard, and stews or apples, not sure which.

Those buffs are to be expected in a run of only 180+ characters.

So that's not NL's being strong. That's NL's depending on items and on others to be strong that's normally outside their scope of normal damage capabilities. Okay.

[Alloy]

White. Just so you stop all your nonsense and leave all this stupid discussion.

One of the following is good game design, the other is poor game design. Try to pick what is what.

Dark Flare. It's a skill that gets more useless as your party is stronger, or your avoid increases. It's also a stationary skill while you are supposed to be a mainly moveable class.

Shadow Web. It's a skill used to keep monsters stopped until they get hit. Yet your only mobbing skill has a small enough range, so you need the monsters to always move to you so they get closer to each other.

Shadow meso. A skill that acts just like another you have, same benefits, mainly, only the other will always be stronger.

Shadow stars. A skill that makes Shadow javelin not activate critical hits, or recharge stars, ever. Only makes the usage of stars slower, by design, it fits the class considering how the ammo works.

Venom. A passive skill that, even adding additional damage, it will do less than the other thief branches, as the attack from the stars are not counted towards the formula.

Meso up. A skill that is automatically useless if a monster doesn't drop mesos, and that only contributes to the aftermatch, only if the person dealing the final blow has the buff active.

Taunt. Shared with shadowers. A skill that lets you get more exp and drops by sacrificing the time for an attack or two (not sure on the timing, may even take the time of 3, even), making it be more profitable to just kill faster, and move to a different target. The potential to help a teammate get more exp is mitigated by the fact you just loose exp yourself, and even contribute less to the party by killing slower. Additionally, completely useless on bosses.

Ninja ambush is a DoT skill that takes more time to cast than any other offensive skill, deals less damage overall than a single avenger attack, and way less range.

Puppet is stationary, tricks enemies and monsters so that you are safer, and attacks consistent damage depending of your range. Keeps the (now less) stationary nature of bowmen's attacks.

Arrow bomb stuns monsters on a small area, dealing damage, and will keep them stunned even after attacking them. It has the same range as shadow web, only you can cast it from far.

Spirit link is a skill that, with a summon out, will make the summon attack while you get benefits from it. The previous summon's stunning abilities can be replaced by other skills, even if not as effective.

Spirit arrows lets you have unlimited stars without ever running out. If you choose to have a damage boost, you can use attack arrows until they run out, then back to your infinite supply. It does not interfere with any other skill, not even evasion boost, that grants a 100% critical bonus for a second everytime you dodge an attack, rewarding you for higher avoid equipment or skills.

Advanced final attack is a skill that, depending on what kind of attack you are using, you can deal more or less extra hits, making a combo with Hurricane be perfect.

Sharp eyes is a skill that lets you and your whole party deal additional damage depending on their critical rates to maximize that advantage, taking party administration at raids to have a new depth.

Concentration is a skill that adds a buff to weapon attack, while adding an extra saving to the mp used per skill, lowering pot use whatever the kind of potion is, even % based recovery ones.

Inferno is a DoT skill that gets an advanced version on 4th job, that lasts a long time and works for enough time to use other attacks while it lasts, working better on stationary bosses, to have an easy target to keep the fire at.

By the way, advantages Night Lords have that I left out are drain, haste and flash jump. Do those sound familiar to you?

[cronnoponno]

I think NL's were boring as all hell from the beginning myself.Damage is one thing, but they're really lacking in about anything else.

They also lost their uniqueness in mobility, which was probably the only thing they had that interested me. Maybe if they had a double flash jump, or rather, a way to redirect the course of their flash jump?(sort of like Pikachu's UP+B in Super Smash bros).

Dark Flare would become cool if it was their ''transformation'' skill, where it'd turn into a giant star(and lose the stem part that connects to the ground), and their whole moveset changes. Meh, I like transforming skills, how cool would it be to be carrying a star bigger than most 2h swords, then, possibly, riding on it midflight and throwing other stars as it's flying you?

Who said taunt is useless for NL's? I saw a damned good video back then where a NL had easily put it into it's playstyle, it even looked more natural than shadower's using it. However, I think it should work on boss monsters.

There could be some awesome stuff to add to NL. I hated their guts back then, but they look very pitiable now lol.

[ShanghaiDizzy]

Who said taunt is useless for NL's? I saw a damned good video back then where a NL had easily put it into it's playstyle, it even looked more natural than shadower's using it. However, I think it should work on boss monsters.

Taunt doesn't work on bosses like you mentioned nor does it work on the LHC mobs. It does work on monsters at say, ToT. However, most NLs by the time they max Taunt are capable of 1-3 hit killing mobs at ToT using Avenger alone. Taunt's great for monsters that require a lot more hits on that to make the amount of EXP gained more worthwhile. It'd be much more EXP/Time efficient to just slam those mobs with Avengers and not Taunt than to Taunt and then finish them. If anything, it -can- be useful, just not worth dumping 30 points into.

[White]

White. Just so you stop all your nonsense and leave all this stupid discussion.

One of the following is good game design, the other is poor game design. Try to pick what is what.

Actually, both are good game design, as they all work and do mostly what they're supposed to. Keep in mind what i've said, NL's have less synergy than most other classes. I support more synergy for their class. Why do I need to keep repeating that?

Dark Flare. It's a skill that gets more useless as your party is stronger, or your avoid increases. It's also a stationary skill while you are supposed to be a mainly moveable class.

Dark Flare has everything to do with NL's and the class itself. The fact it's a party skill doesn't automatically exclude NL's from that aspect. However, despite it being a party skill, I've already proven in this post that it lacks synergy with other classes in addition to itself. While the purpose of the skill is to do damage, the amount of damage it produces is reduced by the fact that many classes have damage mitigation skills or high avoid (which reduces its ability to deal damage period). This is negative synergy.

Both of you are poorly mistaken. Dark Flare, when combined with certain other aspects of the game (such as high defense) make Dark Flare do less damage, but it still does damage. That's not negative synergy, that's less good synergy. Say I take 5k damage from an attack, Dark Flare will reflect that to do 65k. Say a warrior gets hit by the same skill and only takes 1 damage, 13 dealt. That's less good synergy. Say someone gives me 1 million mesos, that's good. Say someone gives me 100k mesos, that's less good, but that doesn't make it bad. To emphasis the effectiveness of Dark Flare, the run leader can fix up the parties to have lower defense classes together with the NL which takes, to quote you Alloy, "party administration at raids to have a new depth." -_-

Shadow Web. It's a skill used to keep monsters stopped until they get hit. Yet your only mobbing skill has a small enough range, so you need the monsters to always move to you so they get closer to each other.

A useless skill, I don't think anyone debates this. However, I did see an NL at rgs (before the big nerf) hitting 225k's w/ shadow web on the royal guard A's that had 11m hp. Not sure how but there you go.

Shadow stars. A skill that makes Shadow javelin not activate critical hits, or recharge stars, ever. Only makes the usage of stars slower, by design, it fits the class considering how the ammo works.

This is a good point. Shadow stars doesn't have synergy with Expert Star Handling, but it does have good synergy with the NL class itself. Hm.

Venom. A passive skill that, even adding additional damage, it will do less than the other thief branches, as the attack from the stars are not counted towards the formula.

Doesn't take the attack of stars, but it does take the influence of your 1.75 dmg multiplier as well as buffs and pots and whatever else. Sounds like synergy to me. Considering it's passive and thus always working for you, and giving you free damage, which isn't small damage either. I wish I had passive poison that did 140%. I don't get a DoT at all unless I want to deliberately sacrifice my dpm.

Meso up. A skill that is automatically useless if a monster doesn't drop mesos, and that only contributes to the aftermatch, only if the person dealing the final blow has the buff active.

And notice how it's a team buff. Nevertheless, it's a rather useless skill as the mesos that monsters drop isn't a source of income for anyone but rather the books and equipment that drops is the valuable thing. I'd be totally on board for Meso Up to be changed to increase drop-rate, even on bosses.

Taunt. Shared with shadowers. A skill that lets you get more exp and drops by sacrificing the time for an attack or two (not sure on the timing, may even take the time of 3, even), making it be more profitable to just kill faster, and move to a different target. The potential to help a teammate get more exp is mitigated by the fact you just loose exp yourself, and even contribute less to the party by killing slower. Additionally, completely useless on bosses.

It's an old skill that needs to be made more current. It should affect bosses. When it was made, there was no LHC, there was no pdr, those things came later and the skill (when original) is no longer the usefulness that it should be. That's not to say that it's a useless skill. It's up to the NL or Shad to determine whether they want to pay the price for the extra benefits. Droprate +40% and EXP +40% is actually a pretty big deal when you think about the uses. Say you're looking for WAB30, or dewlets (whenever that quest is fixed for more than warriors), getting 40% higher droprate is huge. Family buff is only 20%. I'd also be pretty surprised if Taunt doesn't stack with buffs and things like lucky winter or drop cards. It's not a bad skill. But if NL's want to kill as fast as possible and not bother with anything extra then Taunt doesn't fit into their playstyle, that's their choice.

Ninja ambush is a DoT skill that takes more time to cast than any other offensive skill, deals less damage overall than a single avenger attack, and way less range.

I'll tell you what I use DoT's for, and you can tell me what you use them for. I use DoT's exclusively at bosses that have w.cancel up. There's no reason for me to use them otherwise when I do more damage with hurricane. That being said, I don't see the reason of using DoT's for anything besides at bosses with w.cancel. Ninja Ambush fits the bill in that case. If you're looking for it to do damage when you could normally just be attacking with avenger or TT, then I'd say that's a misunderstanding of the true usefulness of the skill.

Puppet is stationary, tricks enemies and monsters so that you are safer, and attacks consistent damage depending of your range. Keeps the (now less) stationary nature of bowmen's attacks.

Pre-Jump puppet is almost completely useless for me. I'm either with a group killing a boss or training at LHC, where puppet's aggro is broken and useless, or i'm soloing a boss that hits map attacks and thus puppet is useless for me. The only time puppet helps me currently is at dojo and grandpa. Post-Jump, assuming puppet actually works like it's supposed to and pulls agg even when other players hit the monster, it still won't be useful for drawing aggo as bosses either hit map wide attacks or the regular monsters die too quickly. The actual only real benefit I can see to E.Puppet is that it takes 20% of my damage, which isn't even it's initial or primary use, but a side benefit.

Arrow bomb stuns monsters on a small area, dealing damage, and will keep them stunned even after attacking them. It has the same range as shadow web, only you can cast it from far.

AB and Shadow Web are two completely different skills, comparing them and then stating that one is better is flawed because of that. AB is a mobbing skill to kill enemies, Shadow Web is a mobbing skill to trap enemies. AB causes a status effect: stun. Shadow Web "binds" which I don't even know how long that lasts or what, but it's different or else it'd be stated as the same.

Spirit link is a skill that, with a summon out, will make the summon attack while you get benefits from it. The previous summon's stunning abilities can be replaced by other skills, even if not as effective.

Comparing version 3 Archers against version 2 NL's is flat out stupid in the first place. Secondly, Spirit Link is amazing, there's no contesting that.

Advanced final attack is a skill that, depending on what kind of attack you are using, you can deal more or less extra hits, making a combo with Hurricane be perfect.

Consider it our passive venom. It's better, yes, but it's also a new skill, v3 vs v2.

Sharp eyes is a skill that lets you and your whole party deal additional damage depending on their critical rates to maximize that advantage, taking party administration at raids to have a new depth.

Yeah, it's a party buff, everyone get's the same benefit. Like haste. I don't really see your point in it. As for 'party administration', that's just laughable. A new depth? Really? If you're serious, I can only assume you're new to party bossing.

Concentration is a skill that adds a buff to weapon attack, while adding an extra saving to the mp used per skill, lowering pot use whatever the kind of potion is, even % based recovery ones.

Yes, and it's greatly appreciated because we can't pot while attacking, we need to stop and pot thereby greatly reducing our dpm. NL's don't have that problem.

Inferno is a DoT skill that gets an advanced version on 4th job, that lasts a long time and works for enough time to use other attacks while it lasts, working better on stationary bosses, to have an easy target to keep the fire at.

The last half of your sentence demonstrates that you really don't know the skill all that well. Inferno is a waste of time as it stands postBB. Hurricane does more damage on groups of what, 1-4? Something like that. And mobs of 4+ are uncommon at best. Post-Jump, U.Inferno (v3 keep in mind) isn't even a skill i'll be investing in as hurricane will still be the better option for training 90% of the time and up. As for the DoT, it'll be useful at bosses that are currently w.canceling, as that's the only practical use of DoT atm.

By the way, advantages Night Lords have that I left out are drain, haste and flash jump. Do those sound familiar to you?

Yep, can't wait to get them.

As for game design, both have it. You and Dizzy assume that because one class has better synergy, that your class then has bad synergy. The truth of the matter is that your class merely has less good synergy. Less good =/= bad.

The fact [Dark Flare] works only within a set area until planted elsewhere means it functions best at stationary and pinned bosses. This I won't argue with. However, not all bosses are stationary, not all bosses will be pinned either through either lack of ability to do so or other disturbances.

If a group is unable to pin a nonstationary boss, the problems for that group are far greater than less than optimal damage return from Dark Flare. When I go on boss runs, and it's often, the boss is always pinned. Need a grand total of 1 warrior to do that, or just fulfill the KB requirement to pin, which is doable easily on all bosses excluding PB, which you need warriors for crash anyway or you'll never kill it in time with it's damage reflect rates. If you're looking for the small exception for when Dark Flare isn't as useful, then please keep in mind that those times are the small exception, not the norm.

So you don't want NL's to become stronger, but you want them to have more synergy, which in your opinion, is for them to become stronger? Sorry, but that's what I'm reading here.

Twisting my words.

I'm instead reading that Dizzy is frustrated with lots of useless skills and (catch word coming) more 'synergy', which I can only assume to mean more skills that work together and more damage buffing skills or skills that do more damage straight up.

My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage, which is certainly not ignored by the times you've stated that NL's have low damage.
I've said I support an increase of synergy in the actual meaning of the word, where more things are working together to achieve an affect greater than their own individually. Like how Concentrate's secondary effect of reducing mp consumption means BM's don't need to pot mp as often and can save pot money.

So that's not NL's being strong. That's NL's depending on items and on others to be strong that's normally outside their scope of normal damage capabilities. Okay.

That is NL's being strong. Apples are obtainable on an NL and they can use that themselves. If they are 200, they can echo for themselves. They can get SE gloves for themselves. They all have MW30 for themselves. They all have some %boss on their weapons. These are all doable by themselves, without the necessary help of their party.

[ShanghaiDizzy]

Sigh, I don't even know where to begin.

Both of you are poorly mistaken. Dark Flare, when combined with certain other aspects of the game (such as high defense) make Dark Flare do less damage, but it still does damage. That's not negative synergy, that's less good synergy.

Less good synergy? It's not good synergy. It's bad synergy. If a skill deals damage based on the damage received and there's a buff out there that reduces damage received, how in the world is that good synergy? Just because it still does damage doesn't mean it's good synergy on a lesser scale. It's not a hard concept to grasp!

This is a good point. Shadow stars doesn't have synergy with Expert Star Handling, but it does have good synergy with the NL class itself. Hm.

Half of the skill is only functional when Shadow Stars is active, which is almost always. Just because half of one skill has good synergy with the other skills, the other half has terrible, it doesn't even it out and suddenly put Expert Star Handling in the middle. The fact it has a wasted trait leaves it as a skill with bad synergy.

Doesn't take the attack of stars, but it does take the influence of your 1.75 dmg multiplier as well as buffs and pots and whatever else. Sounds like synergy to me. Considering it's passive and thus always working for you, and giving you free damage, which isn't small damage either. I wish I had passive poison that did 140%. I don't get a DoT at all unless I want to deliberately sacrifice my dpm.

Once again, free damage != synergy. The part about Venom that compliments other skills that NL's have is that venom has a chance to land per hit and NL's have multiple hits. That part has synergy. The part that doesn't lacks synergy is the fact that the damage dealt does not factor in star w.atk. This makes venom overall less effective for NL's, free damage or not.

I'll tell you what I use DoT's for, and you can tell me what you use them for. I use DoT's exclusively at bosses that have w.cancel up. There's no reason for me to use them otherwise when I do more damage with hurricane. That being said, I don't see the reason of using DoT's for anything besides at bosses with w.cancel. Ninja Ambush fits the bill in that case. If you're looking for it to do damage when you could normally just be attacking with avenger or TT, then I'd say that's a misunderstanding of the true usefulness of the skill.

Too bad Venom DoT and Ambush DoT doesn't work anymore when Weapon Cancel is up. Considering how much you fight high end bosses with NL's as you claimed you do, I figured you'd have realized this by now.

Yes, and it's greatly appreciated because we can't pot while attacking, we need to stop and pot thereby greatly reducing our dpm. NL's don't have that problem.

Considering you're talking so much about v3 vs v2, the same argument you presented will defeat the argument you presented here. -.-

As for game design, both have it. You and Dizzy assume that because one class has better synergy, that your class then has bad synergy. The truth of the matter is that your class merely has less good synergy. Less good =/= bad.

No, we both presented cases where the skills don't compliment each other. The fact archer skills have good synergy within themselves don't mean that we feel NL's have worse. We feel NL's have bad synergy because their skills are just thrown together without half ass thought. The reason why Alloy presented the archer skills to you is to show you what it means to have synergy. Not to compare it to Night Lords.

If a group is unable to pin a nonstationary boss, the problems for that group are far greater than less than optimal damage return from Dark Flare. When I go on boss runs, and it's often, the boss is always pinned. Need a grand total of 1 warrior to do that, or just fulfill the KB requirement to pin, which is doable easily on all bosses excluding PB, which you need warriors for crash anyway or you'll never kill it in time with it's damage reflect rates. If you're looking for the small exception for when Dark Flare isn't as useful, then please keep in mind that those times are the small exception, not the norm.

It doesn't matter if the group will have other problems outside of Dark Flare if they're unable to pin the boss. That wasn't the point. The point was to say that unless pinning/rushing conditions are met, Dark Flare has negative synergy in fighting non-stationary bosses. This does NOT change no matter how much difficulty a group has fighting a boss.

Twisting my words.

Read your words again then.

My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage, which is certainly not ignored by the times you've stated that NL's have low damage.
I've said I support an increase of synergy in the actual meaning of the word, where more things are working together to achieve an affect greater than their own individually. Like how Concentrate's secondary effect of reducing mp consumption means BM's don't need to pot mp as often and can save pot money.

The number times I mention that NL's have low damage is because you're under the assumption that they have unfairly high damage, which through by no means is a wish of mine for more NL damage. My desire for synergy is so that the skills and effects of those skills that a NL possesses aren't wasted like they are now. I've announced this several times but it seems like you're intentionally trying to ignore it.

That is NL's being strong. Apples are obtainable on an NL and they can use that themselves. If they are 200, they can echo for themselves. They can get SE gloves for themselves. They all have MW30 for themselves. They all have some %boss on their weapons. These are all doable by themselves, without the necessary help of their party.

I'm not even going to bother explaining. Look at this chart. There's also a lot more evidence within that thread that states NL's are a shoddy class regarding DPM even factoring in the average times getting hit, repotting, etc. It's the players that are playing those NL's being strong, nothing more.

[MetaSeraphim]

Twisting my words.

That is an opinion on what you said, not twisting your words. Just like you have the opinion that Dizzy just wants her class to be supah powerful.

[White]

That is an opinion on what you said, not twisting your words. Just like you have the opinion that Dizzy just wants her class to be supah powerful.

1) I never said, nor do I believe, she wants NL's to be 'supah powerful'. Quotes?

2)

Now, MetaSeraphim, have you something actual to add to this thread or are you content to merely pick apart my words and try and lure me into a mess of word games and semantics? I respect that you're trying to stand up for ShanghaiDizzy but she seems perfectly capable of stating her own opinions just fine. If you have an opinion on this issue, please do state it. If your opinions are strictly relegated to having a problem with me, then feel completely free to PM me, as that is the proper place for such discussions.

3) Now, Dizzy, I realize why this conversation isn't going anywhere. You are unable to grasp that there are degrees. Something can be good without being great while still being better than bad. If there weren't degrees, we wouldn't have words like better or worse. Things would either be good, or bad, with no give or take between them.

Just because it still does damage doesn't mean it's good synergy on a lesser scale. It's not a hard concept to grasp!

Yes, because it does do damage, but on a lesser scale for certain characters, that does make it synergy, but on a lesser scale for certain characters. That doesn't make it bad synergy. Now, before you say that damage doesn't equal synergy, keep in mind the skill. If the entire and total purpose of the skill is to do damage, and it does damage, then it accomplishes it's purpose. If all skills play a part in synergy, and this skill, being a skill, is accomplishing it's purpose of doing damage, which is all it's supposed to do, then it plays a part in good synergy. It will do damage if you place it in a good location, that relies on you, and is not a problem with the skill. Just as puppet is useless to me if I throw it between me and a monster that throws a spear (like a kentaurus). I can't complain about poor synergy because I placed the puppet poorly, I used the skill poorly, and thus that's MY fault, not the skills. Same with Dark Flare. I didn't think that was a hard concept but apparently it is.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post because it's all irrelevant. My whole position on this topic is built on the recognition that there is synergy, of varying degrees, within the NL class. Since you can't see the 'varying degrees' part, there is no purpose for me to continue further.

I'm done with this topic in this thread, think what you want, but NL's have synergy within their class, plenty of it, just not as much as some other classes. NL's also do great damage, not as much perhaps as some other classes, but my experience says they certainly pull their weight or more than their weight in a party all the time.

[Alloy]

1) I never said, nor do I believe, she wants NL's to be 'supah powerful'. Quotes?

All I'm saying is that NLs do need a HUGE revamp. Not a tiny one. The comparation I made? How a class is well designed, Bowmen after jump, against a poorly designed class before jump. Change is needed. And a huge one, not just tiny, because right now, the class is bad, and if the guys there think like you, as in "Ah, not much to change", the problems will never get solved. Already happened on Big Bang.

You obviously never played a NL, so I guess you'll never know what we are talking about anyway. But hey, whatever floats your boat.

I'm done with this topic in this thread, think what you want, but NL's have synergy within their class, plenty of it, just not as much as some other classes. NL's also do great damage, not as much perhaps as some other classes, but my experience says they certainly pull their weight or more than their weight in a party all the time.

Woah. After typing that, I realize how you don't even know what synergy is then. Because we have plenty of cases where a skill affects negatively others. WITHIN OUR OWN CLASS. I even wrote it step by step on my own post, you quoted it, dissected it, analyzed it, even agreed with me on most cases, and you still say that. Incredible.


EDIT: AND NOW, PLEASE, LET'S STOP THIS BULLCRAP. I already derailed this thread by moaning before, but this is getting out of hand. Our fellow archers have a lot to talk about here.

[MetaSeraphim]

1) I never said, nor do I believe, she wants NL's to be 'supah powerful'. Quotes?

lolol

Here's one.

My interpretation of you wanting more synergy is also an increase of damage

You've referred to it more than once but I don't feel like finding them all at the moment.

[ShanghaiDizzy]

Yes, because it does do damage, but on a lesser scale for certain characters, that does make it synergy, but on a lesser scale for certain characters. That doesn't make it bad synergy. Now, before you say that damage doesn't equal synergy, keep in mind the skill. If the entire and total purpose of the skill is to do damage, and it does damage, then it accomplishes it's purpose. If all skills play a part in synergy, and this skill, being a skill, is accomplishing it's purpose of doing damage, which is all it's supposed to do, then it plays a part in good synergy. It will do damage if you place it in a good location, that relies on you, and is not a problem with the skill. Just as puppet is useless to me if I throw it between me and a monster that throws a spear (like a kentaurus). I can't complain about poor synergy because I placed the puppet poorly, I used the skill poorly, and thus that's MY fault, not the skills. Same with Dark Flare. I didn't think that was a hard concept but apparently it is.

I'm not even going to bother replying to the rest of your post because it's all irrelevant. My whole position on this topic is built on the recognition that there is synergy, of varying degrees, within the NL class. Since you can't see the 'varying degrees' part, there is no purpose for me to continue further.

Wow, holy crap. How hard is it to understand that the fact it does damage doesn't mean it has synergy. Do I really need to dumb it down for you? Here, let's do it this way.

For this example, we won't be using Maple.

a) You are a fire mage.
b) You are fighting fire weak monsters.
c) Some ice mage comes along and makes the fire weak monsters into ice weak but now makes them fire strong.
d) Your fire attacks now deal less damage.

That is negative synergy! It's not "less good synergy" as you called it before. Dark Flare + Achilles and all the other sorts of skills that reduce its damage have negative synergy! It's not hard to grasp!

And while yes, the placement of Dark Flare is important, the placement factor of Dark Flare has NOTHING to do with its inability to compliment fighting non-stationary bosses. How you manage to make it deal damage to non-stationary targets does not add to its synergy when its inherently made to combat stationary targets.

I'm done with this topic in this thread, think what you want, but NL's have synergy within their class, plenty of it, just not as much as some other classes. NL's also do great damage, not as much perhaps as some other classes, but my experience says they certainly pull their weight or more than their weight in a party all the time.

So despite all the dumbing down we had to do for you, you still don't grasp the whole concept nor the inherent flaw within NL's. Wonderful. Good job on wasting your own time and ours. Even better job on refusing to learn anything else and further increase your knowledge about the game.

[hadriel]

Not everyone is very pleased with how these threads turn out.

Think what you want. Well said indeed. I hope you, and everyone else, knows the repercussions of that statement. Walk the talk.

Hadriel