Paladin- High Defense, Invincibility, added crit to their 1v1 + c/o + 94% Mastery
Dark Knight- H/B, added crit to dragon skills, 90% mastery
Hero- Rage?
According to Nexon...
Originally Posted by Nexon
The main advantage is that they can incur a huge attacking damage with their immense attacking skills, but they are conversely weak against spells. Enemies that are strong against weapon attacks also give them fits. The stamina and attacking abilities are just right, making them the safe choice for the warriors looking to make the advancement.
In all honesty, the only thing that's worrying most Heroes right now is the delay. Other than that, I'd really appreciate a boost to Panic/Coma when raising the level of ACA (similar to Boomerang Step raising other skills) in Restructuring so they become a bit more useful.
Anyway, Big Bang should (lightly used) release in about 16 hours from now. We can tell what happens from there. I'll be here the minute I find out what the delay is. I'm not a big fan of uploading to YouTube, so I'll have to leave hard evidence to someone else, but the very least I could do is test it and let the community know what I found the speed to (roughly) be.
EDIT: GMST Hero video using Brave Slash at several bosses. Hopefully someone can compare the speed to Brandish.
Elemental advantage isn't x1.5 anymore, it's x1.2 by the way. And dual charging doesn't stack so something that's weak to both lightning and holy will only be counted towards holy for a paladin.
Elementally weak monsters are far and between too, and not all of them are weak to the most optimal (holy).
None of them have that crazy 90%/94% mastery what are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense at all.
Paladins have 70% and Dark Knights have 80%
If this was the case, and Brave Slash is how it is (1140ms) in kMS right now, why are heroes literally the most popular class next to mechanics?
Oh and then heroes have the skill that lets them ignore 40% of a monster's PDrate...
None of them have that crazy 90%/94% mastery what are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense at all.
Paladins have 70% and Dark Knights have 80%
70% + 20% base = 90%
Then add 4% from combat orders boost = 94%
did you do your homework on this or are you just spewing stuff you don't know
Elemental advantage isn't x1.5 anymore, it's x1.2 by the way. And dual charging doesn't stack so something that's weak to both lightning and holy will only be counted towards holy for a paladin.
Oh and then heroes have the skill that lets them ignore 40% of a monster's PDrate...
Where did you get 1.2x advantage? Also, I never included Lightning as an advantage, just Holy. That and we're not positive that PDRate ignore is additive or multiplicative. Blast might ignore all PDRate 20% of the time (skill description). That much we can figure out. Combat Mastery is something that needs testing.
EDIT: On mastery, melee weapons have 20% base, ranged weapons have 15%, and staves/wands have 15%. The mastery skill adds 50% mastery to that amount. ACB adds 20% more when charged (4% more with Combat Orders) and Beholder adds 20% more while active. Heroes get 20 + 50 = 70%, Paladins get 20 + 50 + 20 + 4 = 94%, and Dark Knights get 20 + 50 + 20 = 90%.
Where did you get 1.2x advantage? Also, I never included Lightning as an advantage, just Holy. That and we're not positive that PDRate ignore is additive or multiplicative. Blast might ignore all PDRate 20% of the time (skill description). That much we can figure out. Combat Mastery is something that needs testing.
EDIT: On mastery, melee weapons have 20% base, ranged weapons have 15%, and staves/wands have 15%. The mastery skill adds 50% mastery to that amount. ACB adds 20% more when charged (4% more with Combat Orders) and Beholder adds 20% more while active. Heroes get 20 + 50 = 70%, Paladins get 20 + 50 + 20 + 4 = 94%, and Dark Knights get 20 + 50 + 20 = 90%.
They changed it from x1.5 to x1.2 when they introduced dual charging. :T
They changed it from x1.5 to x1.2 when they introduced dual charging. :T
Other sources would indicate otherwise. I'd like to see a source on this since last I checked, dual charging's (for Holy in this example) formula was: (135% * 150%) + ((125% / 10) * 150%) if both had advantage (Anego is weak to both). I could really use a second opinion on this as it would help my DPS table on the three warriors.
Other sources would indicate otherwise. I'd like to see a source on this since last I checked, dual charging's (for Holy in this example) formula was: (135% * 150%) + ((125% / 10) * 150%) if both had advantage (Anego is weak to both). I could really use a second opinion on this as it would help my DPS table on the three warriors.
Dual Charging doesn't stack weaknesses, and it was x1.25 not x1.2, my bad. I remember somewhere that instead of attaining +125% from lightning, it just became a x1.25 additive to the primary charge. Holy + Lightning looked like ((135% * 1.25) * 125%)
And either way, heroes are still top dog at bosses that matter.
I'm almost certain that Brave Slash went through 3 speed transitions in KMST. Too slow (1410ms), too fast(840ms), and what it is now(1140ms).
It doesn't really make any logical sense that a 3-hit attack with that animation would move as swiftly as a 2-hit attack with a more compressed animation. And I'm guessing that the delay starts as sooner than other skills, which makes it shorter than it really is. :T
Double Fire's 450ms goes into a whopping 810 ms after Triple Fire by adding 1 hit so... :T
I'm almost certain that Brave Slash went through 3 speed transitions in KMST. Too slow (1410ms), too fast(840ms), and what it is now(1140ms).
It doesn't really make any logical sense that a 3-hit attack with that animation would move as swiftly as a 2-hit attack with a more compressed animation.
The slowed delay makes is so that Brandish is better until Brave Slash hits level 28. While slowed by that much, Blast on a neutral mob even beats Brave Slash with Enrage. Anyway, Stereo played a Post-BB Paladin on GMST and tested the damage and even put the Dual Charge formula there.
The slowed delay makes is so that Brandish is better until Brave Slash hits level 28. While slowed by that much, Blast on a neutral mob even beats Brave Slash with Enrage. Anyway, Stereo played a Post-BB Paladin on GMST and tested the damage and even put the Dual Charge formula there.
And I'm guessing that the delay starts as sooner than other skills, which makes it shorter than it really is. :T
Because one thing I noticed is that the slashy animation overlaps by a bit if you hold the key down.
Because one thing I noticed is that the slashy animation overlaps by a bit if you hold the key down.
I saw that, but I'm more or so waiting on tomorrow's release before I decide to start nerdraging anymore about the delay. I'd rather test it and rage than to rage over a number that makes no sense.
I saw that, but I'm more or so waiting on tomorrow's release before I decide to start nerdraging anymore about the delay. I'd rather test it and rage than to rage over a number that makes no sense.
But really, you want paladins to be 48% weaker than Heroes when they don't have elemental advantage and still 21% weaker than Heroes even when they have elemental advantage?
But really, you want paladins to be 48% weaker than Heroes when they don't have elemental advantage and still 21% weaker than Heroes even when they have elemental advantage?
Ok.
If we're referring to ACB vs Brave Slash, I would like to see Brave Slash, a 3-mob attack, deal more damage than ACB, a stunning, 6-mob attack. Not nearly by that much which is why Restructuring buffed Brave Slash by a bit and ACB by a considerable amount.
EDIT: I can see the 48% gain, but where do you see 21%?
EDIT2: For clarification, it doesn't mean ACB is 48% weaker, it means Brave Slash is 48% stronger. In other words, ACB isn't 52% of Brave Slash's damage, Brave Slash is 148% of ACB's damage (neutral mobs).
If we're referring to ACB vs Brave Slash, I would like to see Brave Slash, a 3-mob attack, deal more damage than ACB, a stunning, 6-mob attack. Not nearly by that much which is why Restructuring buffed Brave Slash by a bit and ACB by a considerable amount.
EDIT: I can see the 48% gain, but where do you see 21%?
EDIT2: For clarification, it doesn't mean ACB is 48% weaker, it means Brave Slash is 48% stronger. In other words, ACB isn't 52% of Brave Slash's damage, Brave Slash is 148% of ACB's damage (neutral mobs).
But why should Blast, a 1 mob attack, be weaker than Brave Slash, a 3 mob attack with and without elemental advantage?
But why should Blast, a 1 mob attack, be weaker than Brave Slash, a 3 mob attack with and without elemental advantage?
:T
It's not? I never said it was. I was asked to do ACB calculations. Enrage is the only reason Brave Slash should be stronger than Blast on neutral/resistant mobs and no other reason since it limits attacks to one target (effectively making it and all other attacks 1v1).
Brave Slash (1140ms) with Enrage: 40.85% weaker than Blast with advantage (59.15% of Blast's damage)
Brave Slash (1140ms) with Enrage: 13.78% weaker than Blast without advantage (86.22% of Blast's damage)
Brave Slash (840ms) with Enrage: 19.72% weaker than Blast with advantage (80.28% of Blast's damage)
Brave Slash (840ms) with Enrage: 17.02% stronger than Blast without advantage (117.02% of Blast's damage)
EDIT: For poops and giggles, I looked up the skills and added Combat Orders to the Paladin. Keeping the same order as above:
54.75% of Blast's damage
79.83% of Blast's damage
74.30% of Blast's damage
108.34% of Blast's damage
Without Combat Orders, the Hero only beats Blast (on neutral mobs) by 8.34% but falls behind by 25.70% damage when the mob is weak to Holy.
Blast and ACB vs. Brandish/Intrepid Slash +/- Coma/Panic -/+ Enrage
Brave Slash 1140ms compared to ACB advantage: -24.79%
Originally Posted by ghostofhalo
All characters have clean weapons, stats of 999/23/4/4, and only have their own buffs (Combat Orders/PDRate/identical buffs not included).
Results
Brave Slash 840ms compared to ACB advantage: +2.07%
Brave Slash 840ms compared to ACB no advantage: +48.78%
Brave Slash 1140ms compared to ACB advantage: -24.79%
Brave Slash 1140ms compared to ACB no advantage: +9.63%
I'm actually not too good with critical hit calculations, so I'm going to take for granted that those numbers are correct (Yes, I read them, and I can't seem to find anything wrong on the non-critical damage parts).
However, I would like to know how you got: Non-Elemental damage = With crits * (135% + 12.5%) under ACB no advantage.
I'm going to proceed with posting my calculations done by pure skill % over time, without factoring in criticals (maybe you can explain how it works to me so we can try to figure something out solidly)...and the results are actually somewhat interesting. Please let me know if you find anything wrong with it.
But given your results, I don't understand this...if Braveslash/IS is indeed stronger than ACB where there is no elemental advantage, what are you complaining about? Is it not rightfully so that Paladins (and AMs) should excel at elementally weak targets? Most big bosses (HT, Zak, PB), last time I checked, have no elemental advantage. And stunning at bosses isn't even a concern at all since bosses can't be stunned.
With regards to some of the number posted by Anonymous Moose...please show how you obtained your calculations...it's very frustrating to try to check/believe validity of analysis when all you throw out is the final result.
Here are my calculations and analysis for multi-mob vs. single - without criticals...someone else can analyze/add to my results (which I think are a bit interesting compared to the numbers presented by others so far) based on criticals. These numbers are for post Restructuring. However, since Paladin and Hero both get boosts in Intrepid Slash and Blast/ACB, these results should still roughly reflect meta-game post BB prior to Restructuring (especially since Brandish remains unchanged from BB to Restructuring...as shown below~)
Mobs
Brandish: 840 ms
Intrepid Slash: 840 ms
Brandish without Coma:
240% * 2 hits * 2 = 960% at 840 ms = 960% / .84 sec = 1142.857% / sec
Intrepid Slash without Coma:
225% * 3 hits * 2 = 1350 % at 1140 ms = 1350% / 1.14 sec = 1184.2% / sec
Coma: 840 ms? (I couldn't find extraction data to check...so I'm going off of experience based on playing a Crusader/Hero of friends)
If we were to calculate the effect of Coma on the overall DPS of Hero...then:
First of all, the probability of getting 2 orbs per attack is 80%, so on average, one can expect an average of 1/.8 hits (expectance of geometric distribution variable) before 2 orbs are charged. Thus, to charge 10 orbs, it would take an average of 5 * (1/.8) = 6.25 hits.
Since the damage increase of each additional orb obtained grows linearly, we may calculate the average damage done over 6.25 hits for Brandish and IS from 0 orbs to 10 orbs by simply: [(initial non-charged damage + final 10 orb damage) / 2 ] * 6.25
Brandish average damage: ([(240% * 2 hits) + (240% * 2 hits * 2) ] / 2) * 6.25 = 4500%
Since each Brandish is 840 ms, 6.25 hits of Brandish = 6.25 * 840ms = 5.25 seconds
Average DPS for 6.25 hits of Brandish (from initial 0 orbs to 10 orbs) = 4500% / 5.25 sec = 857.14% / sec
Intrepid Slash average damage: ([(225% * 3 hits) + (225% * 3 hits * 2) ] / 2) * 6.25 = 6328.125%
Since each Intrepid Slash is 1140 ms, 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash = 6.25 * 1140ms = 7.125 seconds
Average DPS for 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash (from initial 0 orbs to 10 orbs) = 6328.125% / 7.125 sec = 888.16% / sec
The above numbers are for when Coma is not used. Thus, if we add Coma and its additional damage and 840 ms delay to the result, we'll get as follows:
6.25 hits of Brandish/Intrepid Slash + 1 Coma = total hits
Coma damage is 400% per orb. So with 10 orbs, Coma = 4000% damage.
Brandish + Coma = 4500% + 4000% = 8500%
Time of Brandish + Coma = 6.25 * 840 ms + 840 ms = 6.09 sec
Average damage of 6.25 hits of Brandish + Coma = 8500% / 6.09 sec = 1395.73% / sec
Intrepid Slash + Coma = 6328.125% + 4000% = 10328.125%
Time of Intrepid Slash + Coma = 6.25 * 1140 ms + 840 ms = 7.965 sec
Average damage of 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash + Coma = 10328.125% / 7.965 sec = 1296.69% / sec
Compared to Brandish and Intrepid Slash damage without Coma and with constantly fully charged orb:
So we can see from the results so far, for a Hero, the smartest thing to do given the current stats of Restructuring is actually to combine Brandish + Coma for mobs.
Now to compare this result to ACB:
ACB is 600 ms each hit
ACB (Post Restructuring):
Dual Charge Thunder + Holy no advantage: 510% * 1.35 * 1.25 = 860.625% at 600 ms = 860.625% / .6 = 1434.375% / sec
With any elemental advantage, the Paladin would be stronger. However, since I'm not entirely clear yet on Single Charge vs. Multi-Charge elemental advantage calculations (yes, there is a huge diff), I'm not going to delve deeper into this - but it makes sense that Paladins are (much) stronger at elemental mobs just like AMs with Elemental Wands on top of their innate skills.
Conclusion: On average, for target sizes of 2-3, Hero is slightly weaker than Paladin if they use Brandish + Coma. Without Coma, Hero will be much weaker after Restructuring if they stick to only Brandish and Intrepid Slash. For mobs of 4-7 (if we throw in CO), you may do your calculations and compare...I'm too lazy to type that out. If we factor in Hero's Combat Mastery, then roughly speaking, Paladin and Hero should be about equal on mobs with regards to ACB vs. Brandish + Coma.
Single Target
Assuming that you have read the explanations for the derivations for multiple mobs above, I'm not going to go into as much details of explanation word-wise now.
Assuming Panic delay is also 840 ms (again, I can't find values in current extractions, so I'm going by experience)
Dual charge thunder + holy Blast no elemental advantage (if we do not factor critical - yes, I know this makes a huge diff now since Blast has inherent critical rate, but I'm honestly not too familiar with critical formulas atm):
Conclusion: If I take for granted the value of Blast posted by Anonymous Moose, then for single target DPS, Brandish + Panic + Enrage is pretty on par with Blast.
So...after all said and done...
Conclusions
With the current system as it is, it seems that Heros are not at a clear disadvantage compared to Paladins both on mobs and single target DPS. However, this requires that they use Coma and Panic with Brandish and ditch Intrepid Slash altogether. So while there may seem to be a damage balance (if Heros exploit Brandish + Coma/Panic -/+ Enrage), the Hero class itself would indeed need some rework on Intrepid Slash's delay so that Intrepid Slash is not useless - while still maintaining balance throughout 3rd and 4th job altogether...hm...well, maybe someone can critique these calculations. =)
In all honesty, the only thing that's worrying most Heroes right now is the delay. Other than that, I'd really appreciate a boost to Panic/Coma when raising the level of ACA (similar to Boomerang Step raising other skills) in Restructuring so they become a bit more useful.
Anyway, Big Bang should (lightly used) release in about 16 hours from now. We can tell what happens from there. I'll be here the minute I find out what the delay is. I'm not a big fan of uploading to YouTube, so I'll have to leave hard evidence to someone else, but the very least I could do is test it and let the community know what I found the speed to (roughly) be.
EDIT: GMST Hero video using Brave Slash at several bosses. Hopefully someone can compare the speed to Brandish.
That video looks fast.... No worries then?
EDIT: Just noticed he used a 2 handed sword in that video? It's damn fast... What's going on with the numbers then?
That video looks fast. Almost as fast as a lunchbox or even as fast... No worries then?
EDIT: Nevermind...I timed portions of the video...it's about the same speed of Blast/Brandish with Normal 5 weapon with Booster (~80-82 attacks/min). But we won't know for sure until tomorrow~
However, I would like to know how you got: Non-Elemental damage = With crits * (135% + 12.5%) under ACB no advantage.
It's your damage (including criticals) multiplied by your Holy Charge damage AND one-tenth of your Lightning Charge damage (Dual Charging formula).
Originally Posted by MysticHLE
But given your results, I don't understand this...if Braveslash/IS is indeed stronger than ACB where there is no elemental advantage, what are you complaining about?
I would like to see some kind of advantage for the fact that Brave Slash hits half as many targets using all of my numbers that I did before:
Brave Slash (1140ms) on 3 targets is an average of 197,777 damage.
Brave Slash (840ms) on 3 targets is an average of 268,412 damage.
ACB with advantage on 3 targets is an average of 262,973 damage; on 6 targets is an average of 525,945 damage.
ACB without advantage on 3 targets is an average of 180,411 damage; on 6 targets is an average of 360,823 damage.
On 6 targets without advantage and Brave Slash at 840ms, ACB still causes more damage. In fact, ACB doesn't cause as much damage on 4 targets, but can kill those 4 before the Hero can. With Combat Orders, the Paladin can hit 7 targets with ACB. It's just a matter of targets rather than raw damage.
Originally Posted by MysticHLE
With regards to some of the number posted by Anonymous Moose...please show how you obtained your calculations...it's very frustrating to try to check/believe validity of analysis when all you throw out is the final result.
Back a page is the core elements to my formulas. I'm not entirely sure how I could be more direct without naming things as variables.
Originally Posted by MysticHLE
Mobs
Brandish: 840 ms
Intrepid Slash: 840 ms
Brandish without Coma:
240% * 2 hits * 2 = 960% at 840 ms = 960% / .84 sec = 1142.857% / sec
Intrepid Slash without Coma:
225% * 3 hits * 2 = 1350 % at 1140 ms = 1350% / 1.14 sec = 1184.2% / sec
Coma: 840 ms? (I couldn't find extraction data to check...so I'm going off of experience based on playing a Crusader/Hero of friends)
If we were to calculate the effect of Coma on the overall DPS of Hero...then:
First of all, the probability of getting 2 orbs per attack is 80%, so on average, one can expect an average of 1/.8 hits (expectance of geometric distribution variable) before 2 orbs are charged. Thus, to charge 10 orbs, it would take an average of 5 * (1/.8) = 6.25 hits.
Since the damage increase of each additional orb obtained grows linearly, we may calculate the average damage done over 6.25 hits for Brandish and IS from 0 orbs to 10 orbs by simply: [(initial non-charged damage + final 10 orb damage) / 2 ] * 6.25
Brandish average damage: ([(240% * 2 hits) + (240% * 2 hits * 2) ] / 2) * 6.25 = 4500%
Since each Brandish is 840 ms, 6.25 hits of Brandish = 6.25 * 840ms = 5.25 seconds
Average DPS for 6.25 hits of Brandish (from initial 0 orbs to 10 orbs) = 4500% / 5.25 sec = 857.14% / sec
Intrepid Slash average damage: ([(225% * 3 hits) + (225% * 3 hits * 2) ] / 2) * 6.25 = 6328.125%
Since each Intrepid Slash is 1140 ms, 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash = 6.25 * 1140ms = 7.125 seconds
Average DPS for 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash (from initial 0 orbs to 10 orbs) = 6328.125% / 7.125 sec = 888.16% / sec
The above numbers are for when Coma is not used. Thus, if we add Coma and its additional damage and 840 ms delay to the result, we'll get as follows:
6.25 hits of Brandish/Intrepid Slash + 1 Coma = total hits
Coma damage is 400% per orb. So with 10 orbs, Coma = 4000% damage.
Brandish + Coma = 4500% + 4000% = 9500%
Time of Brandish + Coma = 6.25 * 840 ms + 840 ms = 6.09 sec
Average damage of 6.25 hits of Brandish + Coma = 9500% / 6.09 sec = 1559.93% / sec
Intrepid Slash + Coma = 6328.125% + 4000% = 10328.125%
Time of Intrepid Slash + Coma = 6.25 * 1140 ms + 840 ms = 7.965 sec
Average damage of 6.25 hits of Intrepid Slash + Coma = 10328.125% / 7.965 sec = 1296.69% / sec
Compared to Brandish and Intrepid Slash damage without Coma and with constantly fully charged orb:
So we can see from the results so far, for a Hero, the smartest thing to do given the current stats of Restructuring is actually to combine Brandish + Coma for mobs.
Now to compare this result to ACB:
ACB is 600 ms each hit
ACB (Post Restructuring):
Dual Charge Thunder + Holy no advantage: 510% * 1.35 * 1.25 = 860.625% at 600 ms = 860.625% / .6 = 1434.375% / sec
With any elemental advantage, the Paladin would be stronger. However, since I'm not entirely clear yet on Single Charge vs. Multi-Charge elemental advantage calculations (yes, there is a huge diff), I'm not going to delve deeper into this - but it makes sense that Paladins are (much) stronger at elemental mobs just like AMs with Elemental Wands on top of their innate skills.
Conclusion: On average, for target sizes of 2-3, Hero is still stronger if they use Brandish + Coma. Without Coma, Hero will be much weaker after Restructuring if they stick to only Brandish and Intrepid Slash. For mobs of 4-7 (if we throw in CO), you may do your calculations and compare...I'm too lazy to type that out.
Single Target
Assuming that you have read the explanations for the derivations for multiple mobs above, I'm not going to go into as much details of explanation word-wise now.
Assuming Panic delay is also 840 ms (again, I can't find values in current extractions, so I'm going by experience)
Dual charge thunder + holy Blast no elemental advantage (if we do not factor critical - yes, I know this makes a huge diff now since Blast has inherent critical rate, but I'm honestly not too familiar with critical formulas atm):
Conclusion: If I take for granted the value of Blast posted by Anonymous Moose, then for single target DPS, Brandish + Panic + Enrage is pretty on par with Blast.
One thing you will need to redo is Panic/Coma's damage. Stereo tested it on GMST. Refer to this post in this thread about the findings. Other than that, I'd love to see what your DPS comes out to after the adjustments.
We should all just realistically remember that Brave Slash's 1140 isn't the typical 1140 as we can clearly see.
And you guys are talking as if everything has a potential elemental weakness. Realistically, for regular mobs some, but for bosses, not really.
And I'm talking about big bosses like Zakum, Lionheart, Horntail, Pink Bean.
None of them have any significant elemental weakness.
[Module] Big Bang | Delays & Ranges
Originally Posted by monkeyfist
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