Kanna's Kishin Skoukan Spawn Increase

Ok, so there has been a lot of questioning about how this works. The skill says:
"The Demons strengthen the dark energy on the map and decreases monster respawn time".

The standard spawn tick for most maps is 10 seconds. The description would lead you to believe that the skill would alter the spawn tick, but it doesn't.

The way maps are programmed in maple is that the map is defined with two important things. 1) There are a number of predefined spawn points and 2) there is a mob limit on the map. Here is an example:
http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=610040100
This is the map info for Aliens map #2. As you can see, it is defined with 18 spawn points for Cogs and 13 spawn points for Miners. The map data doesn;t show the actual number of span points, but it is reasonable to believe that the number is a t least 18 to accommodate the number of Cogs. Miners and Cogs likely share spawn points.) The mob limit on this map is 11. This means that even though there are 18 spawn locations, they will cease spawning when there are 11 mobs on the map.

This is where Kanna's skill comes in. While active, Kishin Shoukan alters the mob limit number. In this case, the mob limit is increased from 11 to 18. (This data was collected personally.) This indicates to me that Kanna's skill essentially increases the mob limit to equal the number of spawn points on the map.

Some folks (including myself) have reported that it doesn't function on some maps. Well, here's why. Here is a map that I reported doesn;t work -
http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=682000405
This is the popular Toy Room in the Haunted House which normally spawns 4 Twisted Jesters. If you look at the map info, you can see that this map likely has ONLY 4 spawn points. We already know from experience that the mob limit on this map is 4 since there are always 4 jesters. Since the mob limit is already equal to the number of spawn points, Kanna's skill will have no effect.

The other possibility is simply that the mob limit is increased by about 50-65% (and not the max). I need to find map data that has spawn point information. In a map with mixed mob spawn, some spawn points may be shared while others are not. Take a room like this one -
http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=682000502
When Kishin is used here, I generally get 6 mobs. If there are 8 spawn points on this map, then Kanna bakes a 50% mob limit increase. If there are 6 spawn points (two of them shared by jesters and hoodoos) then Kanna increases it to max. I intend to do more testing to be sure. There used to be a place that had extracted map data that showed were all the spawn points on the map were, but I don't recall where.

- Lion King Castle -

Ok, so with all this info, what's the deal with LHC? How is this similar/different to a glitched map? Well, We know that the mob limit of the map is altered by the number of people on the map. As the map population increases, so does the mob limit. Spawn points are defined on the map but they are not filled by the base number of monsters listed like so -
http://www.southperry.net/spdb.php?d...vnum=211060830
I have had various reports on how Kishin acts in LHC and thus I cannot speak for it yet. I am still testing it.

Glitched maps have two things that can happen. 1) the glitch increases the mob limit as if the map was full and thus increases the number of mobs on the map. 2) The glitch can multiply the mob limit to go beyond the number of spawn points. These ones are the so-called "super glitched" maps. they keep spawning mobs from all spawn points until there are WAY too many mobs on the map. These are the ones that crash most systems when they get out of control.
In either case, it's a glitch and the results will be unpredictable. Kanna's skill should be fully predictable. I am working to get my kanna to a castle golem map which is small and controllable for further testing. I'd be happy to see other contributors, too. Off to do more testing...

TL;DR - Kanna's skill increases the number of mobs on the map in most cases. It does not reduce the actual spawn tick time.

Thanks for clearing this up, a very helpful post. I had no idea how it worked, but this makes sense to me.

It definitely works at LHC, I did it when I was soloing the place. I'd assume that Shoukan brings it to the "next limit", as if there were an extra person with you.

Another place where spawn isn't increased is where the Gatekeeper and Thanatos spawn in Ludi, as I can see now from looking at the database, they only have 2 spawn points on the map.

I liked this skill when I first got it and had no idea it did such a thing as increase spawn on a map until I looked a bit more carefully at it. Thanks for explaining the mechanics though, this is very helpful! :love:

Nice information. I honestly didn't even think of mentioning this mechanic myself, but even JMS has the same wrong description for the skill. I knew it increased how many mobs it spawned because I've never noticed an increased spawn rate, just a higher spawn amount.

Great job compiling this information.

If Kishin Skoukan does truely increase spawn at places like LHC, I can see kannas being a highly wanted class like hser mules in the near future.

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Originally Posted by Vontos

If Kishin Skoukan does truely increase spawn at places like LHC, I can see kannas being a highly wanted class like hser mules in the near future.

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People are already smegaing asking for Kanna mules.

After testing at LHC, I believe the proper spawn increase is 66% of the normal map limit, rounded down, so long as there are enough spawn points on the map to support it.

Ooh, this is really interesting... @Justin; and I were messing around with our Kannas and each using Kishin Shoukan on the same map, hoping for further multiplied results, but we noticed pretty quickly it doesn't seem to stack.

Would this always be the case, or could there possibly be a map that has spawn points that exceed a single Kanna's abilities?

You may not want to test this, but there is a second interpretation of "decreases monster respawn time".

Any mob spawner can have a cooldown timer associated with it - separately from the interval between spawns, it won't spawn a mob before the time is up.

Area bosses are the main example of this - they have a ~30 minute timer, when the time is up, one spawns next time the right spawn point is free.

Other examples I can cite are old MS stuff - Tauromacis used to have a 2 minute timer, Lycanthropes had a 60 second timer, and so on. (when they were in mixed maps with Cold Eyes and White Pangs respectively).

Maybe Kishin Shoukan decreases the cooldown between spawns more quickly.



I basically see 5 limits on a map's spawn
(1) number of spawn points
(2) number of a particular mob set to spawn in the map
(3) total number of mobs allowed to spawn in a map
(4) time between attempting to spawn more mobs
(5) cooldowns on individual spawners

It's a reasonable guess that a map can never have more than the number of spawn points appear at the same time - I've never seen 2 mobs spawn in the same place at the same time, and the spots they spawn seems fixed. It's also pretty clear that a given mob won't appear more times than (2) allows - there are never multiple area bosses in the same map. Number 3 can be concluded by the fact that when a map is at the mob limit, area bosses don't spawn - kill a couple other mobs and you'll immediately see the bosses spawn.

On maps where (3) is smaller than (1), like LHC, mobs appear 'randomly'. At Crockies for example there are 5 platforms, each of which can have 2-3 mobs spawn on it, but the mob limit is 4. On maps where (3) is smaller than (2), Kanna's obviously effective. Jesters imply that when (3) is equal to (2) nothing happens.

LHC is probably the best place to test how much Kanna increases rates by. Most of the maps have huge numbers of spawn points but very few mobs spawning.


I'd guess that the process of spawning mobs comes in two parts - each mob listed in the map description gets put on a list, and every <n> second respawn time, it pulls as many as can be added to the map from the list and chooses a place to spawn them. When that mob dies, it goes back in the list, possibly with a cooldown. Map hacks either trick it into thinking there's more space to spawn, or adds more monsters to the list (which can get laggy).

It's possible that each mob has its own unique spawn point, and the game just won't add a mob if there's something standing there already. I dunno how to test whether the same spawn point can shoot out multiple mobs at once except boring observation.

no wonder why it felt this way when i switched from 4 jester room to roids, and then to the non popular alien maps. Good read

You can probably test this with the GateKeepers and Thanatos maps. If I remember right, only 2 can spawn in each map and have like a 30 second spawn timer in between. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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Originally Posted by Kubi

You can probably test this with the GateKeepers and Thanatos maps. If I remember right, only 2 can spawn in each map and have like a 30 second spawn timer in between. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

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Another place where spawn isn't increased is where the Gatekeeper and Thanatos spawn in Ludi, as I can see now from looking at the database, they only have 2 spawn points on the map.

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As you can see I've already tested it, and Thorr's idea seems to be true. Only 2 will ever spawn.

Good read. Noticed it at Toy Room too (and also wondered if it would even possibly reduce the spawn time of Ranked Dojo bosses).

Fun fact: Kishin is the same in Japanese and Korean. It means ghost.

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Originally Posted by Stereo

Any mob spawner can have a cooldown timer associated with it - separately from the interval between spawns, it won't spawn a mob before the time is up.

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There is a lot of truth to what you are saying and the base of it is supported by the behavior of LHC. It was part of my initial theory, but I can tell you why I didn't pursue it:
LHC - Crockies - with 1-3 people on the map, the spawn limit is 4. We know there over a dozen spawn points on the map. When Kanna activated her skill, the spawn went from 4 to 6, all instant. With a 4th person on the map, the spawn changes to base 5 and the Kanna spawn increased to 8, again, all instant.

LHC - Castle Golems - Same spawn pattern as Crockies (starts with 4). There are only about 6-7 spawn points on the map, though. (Very Tall Walls 1, I believe. It's the small map.) When Kanna cast her skill, the spawn max increased to 6 (from 4), however, it wasn't instant. I would get 4 or 5 mobs to spawn at a time, but not all 6. The most it would give me was 6 on a map, but only 4 specific points would spawn -every- tick. Three other points would only spawn every -other- tick, or so. (This goes back to similar behavior I noticed when training on a glitched version of this map a couple of years ago. The spawn would max at 9 golems, but a maxiumum of 5 would show up per tick.) This tells me that this map has some normal delay spawn locations and some longer delay spawn locations. Kanna's skill did NOT speed up the long delay locations, but it did increase the mob limit.

Thanks for bringing up this scenario, Stereo.

Kishin Shoukan has a y = 70 variable, which could be the spawn rate increase they provide.

The original Japanese is
モンスターが出る速度も速くなる。
Which literally means "the speed at which monsters appear is made faster".

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Originally Posted by JoeTang

Kishin Shoukan has a y = 70 variable, which could be the spawn rate increase they provide.

The original Japanese is
モンスターが出る速度も速くなる。
Which literally means "the speed at which monsters appear is made faster".

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That' is great info. It would coincide with my findings. I had determined it was over 50% but not as high as 75% (rounded down to the nearest whole number).

Could the Y number refer to the skill's hit box though?

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Originally Posted by Thorr

That' is great info. It would coincide with my findings. I had determined it was over 50% but not as high as 75% (rounded down to the nearest whole number).

Could the Y number refer to the skill's hit box though?

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No, the hitbox is defined elsewhere. y could reference the rate at which the orb moves, or something like that though. There is also an x = 1.